Why Not Us?

[stroke]

I think what everyone is saying is if we stop selling out so much and start building our program then we will be Ok. we looking for gimics to sell tickets, which is pure sad...

And after reading the "to many cinderalla's" topic it just puzzles me that a non Scholarship Cornell ivy league team can be better then US.. Come on, how do you explain that..

 

[SU Jag 79]

As far as "big name" teams, some will play you at your place .... but then the pressure is on you to fill your arena. Case in point, within the last five or six years, Texas A&M, Baylor, and La. Tech have come into the Clark Activity Center .... if I remember correctly, we beat A & M (before they blew up into what they are now) and La. Tech (last year). Care to see what the attendance figures were for those games?

I don't even want to tell you, but it wasn't worth a damn. Kendrick has mentioned before that needing other things to go around your games is a testament to the lack of product on the floor. Let's say that's true. At SU, it doesn't take much to get 10 to 15,000 out for football, but we can barely average 1,000 for basketball and that was the case with our last three coaches (Jobe, Grant, and Spivery). Granted, the current coach needs to do a better job of recruiting (FAST!), but we need to make our arenas the place to be for SWAC weekends. Gone are the days, at least for the SWAC, where you can just throw out 10 guys, a basketball, and get 5,000 in the gym.

I'm not worried about the Duke's, UNC's, Kansas and the like. But there is little reason we should be that far behind the ULL's, the Sam Houston State's, the UAB's, and Southern Mississippi's of the basketball world.

It's going to take ten coaches, ten AD's, an ten university leaders coming together to do what's best for this conference if we want to improve as a conference. However, no one has jumped up, even UAPB, who started at 0-11 this year.

 

[PsychoJag]

I think what everyone is saying is if we stop selling out so much and start building our program then we will be Ok. we looking for gimics to sell tickets, which is pure sad...

And after reading the "to many cinderalla's" topic it just puzzles me that a non Scholarship Cornell ivy league team can be better then US.. Come on, how do you explain that..

I don't understand it either......

 

[the band fan]

those kids are getting some type of aid....you can offer kids the ivy experience which is considered prestigious and your getting a high iq kid to boot

 

[Panther88]

you can offer kids the ivy experience which is considered prestigious and your getting a <b>high iq kid</b> to boot

:|

Talk to some current HS jrs that are on the recruitable now list. :| You'll find your answer(s).

 

[BULL DAWG]

1st question:
Why do we look at these as "money games" instead of just games on the schedule?

I know we getting paid to go there but in D-1 basketball, this is our competition.
One reason we suck is because we see defeat 12 months in advance and start complaining about playing these teams.
If thats the case, let's just drop our B-ball programs down to D2 and not worry about playing money games against our tournament competition.:lecture:


2nd question:
If money games are so bad, they why do we make a big deal out of making March Madness when we will be playing these same "money game" teams that 90% of ya'll act like we should not be playing at all.:noidea:

1) They are listed as "money" or "guarantee" games, because the home team pays the visiting school a guaranteed amount just for showing up. Usually teams agree to play a home and home, and the home team keeps all the profit. With guarantee games the host team doesn't have to make a return trip to the visiting team. However, the games themselves are not the problem. The problem comes in when instead of marketing out product on the court, we settle for these money games to pay our bills, which does nothing for the program, but keep it afloat. Simply put, as a conference, we have abused guarantee games. We'd rather be lazy and take a couple, than to go about trying to build solid programs.

2) Playing teams in the NCAA Tournament is much different than playing a guarantee game. First, you're playing on a neutral court! Second, both teams are compensated in the same way for their appearance. Third, it's a tournament and your playing for (potentially) a national championship. Fourth, it's post-season and teams have had an opportunity to mature over the regular season and conference tournament; instead of the beginning of the season, when facing tougher competition can have detrimental effects.

 

[stroke]

those kids are getting some type of aid....you can offer kids the ivy experience which is considered prestigious and your getting a high iq kid to boot

so you saying that Cornell can field a better basketball Team by only offering a basic educational scholarship, requiring a 26 or above just to get in school, and knowing that your basketball career truely depends on your performance in the Class, then we Can with Full Athletic Scholarships, 18s to get in, and Plenty of time to focus on Basketball?
I Think your Statement just proved How sorry our Coaches are.. Nothing More Nothing Less..


Funny story, recall when 8 regular students at Grambling played a preseason Exhibition against Our Basketball Team. The Regular students beat Grambling by 20.. Why Coach Wright didnt cut all his players and pick up the Students, I dont know.. Or that might have been Coach Reyonalds Team..

 

[Creekside]

When it comes to scheduling, a lot of Northern Iowa's non conference slots are usually already filled. They have annual home and home games with Iowa and Iowa State. It is rare to see the big boys have that type of arrangement with instate mid-major or low-major programs. When was the last time Arkansas played UAPB, Arkansas State or UALR? Never.

The DePaul and Bostaon College games came from being in the Paradise Jam. WIth the Sweet Sixteen run, they will probably get more invitations to those types of tounaments.

The SWAC needs to be a part of the ESPN Bracktebuster. It has been great for the smaller schools. ESPN matches you up with a team of comparable strength, then you play the following year in a home and home arrangement. UNI played at Siena in the Bracketbuster game last year and got a home game this year as part of the deal. They hosted Old Dominion this year and will play there next year. The Missouri Valley Conference has a challenge series with the Mountain West, similar to the Big 10/ACC and Big 12/Pac 10 series. The SWAC should do something similar with the Southland for example. These things will help strengthen the home OOC schedule. BI agree, the money games need to be kept to a minimum. You are right BULL DAWG, changes like this will take a lot of time. I have been watching the Missouri Valley the past few years and that is what they did. It took time, but it has been worth it for the teams that decided to make that committment.

The problem is we sell out for the money games. Money games hurt conference perception, conference & team RPI, and probably the individual team's psychology.

If we want to compete with the Murray State's, Butler's and Northern Iowa's, we need to limit ourselves to 3 or less money games per school. We need to start scheduling some of the other mid-majors, which will hurt at first, but in the end will build both the conference and the individual programs. When we start beating other mid-majors consistently and knocking-off a BCS-conference school every now and again, we will build respect. The only problem is it takes time... and that's the bitter pill nobody wants to swallow. It will take 5-10 years, but it can happen. Individual schools and teams must commit to the long haul and not just wait for a quick fix.

Look at the Missouri Valley a mid-major conference that had 4 selections in 2007 and now has Northern Iowa in the Sweet 16.

See at UNI's Out of Conference Schedule:


They only played 4 BCS Conference Schools, but all of them are lower tier in their conference, and they were not all money games they played Iowa at home. We need to play the SEC and ACC and Big-12, but look for games we might possibly win.

Also they played other up-and-coming mid majors: Sienna and Old Dominion are both tournament teams, which made them somewhat battle tested by facing other potential double-digit seeds. And they also weren't afraid of scheduling non-conference games during the season. That ODU game, gave them a real good indication of where they stood outside the conference.

Finally, the other 5 games were all against regular, run-of-the-mill D-I teams. They had confidence because they were facing consistent talent week-in and week-out. Ain't no D-II games bunched in there nowhere. We mess our kids up by having them whoop some D-II, puffing their head up and then getting knocked down in these guarantee games. And if they like A&M and lose to D-II schools, then they pretty much can throw the towel in on the whole season.

For SWAC schools to improve they need to do the following:

1) Schedule only 1 or 2 Guarantee games
2) Schedule lower tier schools from BCS conferences as home and home or be creative with a 1-home/2-away arrangement
3) Schedule no more than 1 D-II exhibition game
4) Schedule other mid-majors and finally
5) Make the most of opportunities by going home with a "W" in some of these winnable games

:lecture: One more thing... when we start beating other mid-majors it will also help solve another problem... ATTENDANCE!!! I don't care what conference records are or how many money games you accept. A 7-3 team will garner more fan support than a 0-10 team everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[In_The_662]

The SWAC needs to be a part of the ESPN Bracktebuster. It has been great for the smaller schools. ESPN matches you up with a team of comparable strength, then you play the following year in a home and home arrangement. .

Wont happen because of the reason this thread was created: money games. at best, a SWAC team might around .500-.600 when Brackbusters occurs with a terrible RPI (which occurs when most of the teams you are playing are usually around 7-18 in mid-February). That just wont cut it when teams like Butler, Siena, UNI or even Morgan State are being featured...

Morgan State only lost by 9 in their brackbuster game so Im sure that they wanted to win, but that game can be used to see where their program stacks with the other mid-major programs...

 

[Panther88]

Funny story, recall when 8 regular students at Grambling played a preseason Exhibition against Our Basketball Team. The Regular students beat Grambling by 20.. Why Coach Wright didnt cut all his players and pick up the Students, I dont know.. Or that might have been Coach Reyonalds Team..

That's not abnormal on HBCU campuses, unfortunately. When I was in school, myself and several others could outlift our entire OL while giving up over 75+lbs in fat to them LOL. WRs who were skinnier than Urkel, etc. There were several former 1st team all-district/all-state guys on campus not playing any type of sports but we certainly continued to workout MORE than the guys who represented the university. 2 funny. lol :emlaugh:

 

[Tigerpride]

You said a lot in that sentence. i think this Might be the answer to the Question.. basicly money Games are our Food Stamps and Public housing that keep us content, instead of going out working Hard and seeing what can happen..
We Can Give up some of these Money games start playing against the Sunbelt, Southland, southern Confernce, the Conference that has IUPU, Butler and Centinary in it.. We will then get Better and get higher Seeds, that will lead to some tournament Wins.. But it will also expose a lot of our Coaches which might be the real reason that we play so many Money games..

One thing you have to remember is that going 0-12 against teams with high RPI will help our RPI better than going 12-0 against teams with low RPI. It's a catch 22.

players,

I am just being realistic. Just like 1-AA wins over 1-A schools happen every 100 games, the same is true for bball. Not only the SWAC but half the conferences in the nation can't beat the worst ACC team. Sure a team might have a year or so where they can but then it's back to the bottom of the barrel.

The thing that SWAC schools have is that we can get kids who will play with us for 4 years. The bigger schools only get kids who only stay with them 1 or two years. If we could keep our GaTech team together for one more year, we would be in the final four next year. Mid-majors have the benefit of molding a team while catching some of the big boys in transition as they try to gel. It took Tech all dayum year to get it right.

This is why I like the SWAC champ going to the NIT. With the right seed, we can get a win there. We also have a chance of getting a home game.

 

[Tigerpride]

I don't understand it either......

LOL...you think those kids are paying 50K a year to attend Cornell just to play bball? They may not give out athletic scholarships but they have endowments where they can just give out full rides (like the any low income African American).

From this conversation, I understand things a lot more. We can't exculsively play mid-majors becasue it would break us. Money games are a necessary evil. The only way out of it is for OUR fans to sell out our arenas 5-6 times pre-conference and at every conference game. ...and we know that ain't gonna happen.

 

[Tigerpride]

so you saying that Cornell can field a better basketball Team by only offering a basic educational scholarship, requiring a 26 or above just to get in school, and knowing that your basketball career truely depends on your performance in the Class, then we Can with Full Athletic Scholarships, 18s to get in, and Plenty of time to focus on Basketball?
I Think your Statement just proved How sorry our Coaches are.. Nothing More Nothing Less..

Dude, we are talkin about Cornell. They are private and can do what they want to do. You think their sports teams have kids with 26 ACTs? I know that the frats I work with at UPenn who play sports ain't come in with those kind of scores.

 

[mighty hornet]

This is why I like the SWAC champ going to the NIT.

I TOTALLY disagree with that line of thinking. Just like with ANY other team in D1 bball, the goal should be the NCAA tourney, the Big Dance, the real mccoy. not the consolation tourney.
(but that might be another thread there)

Also, I understand the money game angle, but there HAS to be a line drawn to at least attempt to schedule some winnable and "attractive" HOME games too. For example, I like ASU scheduling Troy, South Alabama, GA State
,FAMU, and AUM and Skegee (the last two won't help RPI, but they shole should put some butts in the seats) and getting a Bama or Auburn in the Acadome.

 

[players]

I TOTALLY disagree with that line of thinking. Just like with ANY other team in D1 bball, the goal should be the NCAA tourney, the Big Dance, the real mccoy. not the consolation tourney.
(but that might be another thread there)

Also, I understand the money game angle, but there HAS to be a line drawn to at least attempt to schedule some winnable and "attractive" HOME games too. For example, I like ASU scheduling Troy, South Alabama, GA State
,FAMU, and AUM and Skegee (the last two won't help RPI, but they shole should put some butts in the seats) and getting a Bama or Auburn in the Acadome.

MH......Not smacking..........just stating my opinion.:lecture:
It's just like the thinking about our football teams.
We can't "compete" so we take ourselves completely out the picture and then cry when we are treated like second class citizens.

This thinking is sad and getting sadder but people can't see that "our attitude" towards competing with ALL NCAA SCHOOLS is one of the biggest reasons we are in the situation we in.
Too many excuses, THE SAME ONES, year after year.
We get worse and school's that don't have any better facilities or more money can come in and clean our clocks in any sport.

 

[chrisd]

U of Arkansas for some reason refuses to play other teams from the state of Arkansas in ANY sport, not just football and basketball.

 

[mighty hornet]

U of Arkansas for some reason refuses to play other teams from the state of Arkansas in ANY sport, not just football and basketball.

I think its a fear of the fallout of a potential loss to an instate team, because they don't seem to have a problem scheduling other SWAC schools. ASU played Arkansas this year. :tdown:

It seems the two SEC teams in Alabama don't think this way anymore. Just about every year now, ASU plays Bama and/or Auburn. In the past 5 years, both Bama and Auburn have played at ASU. The Bama game drew over 7K and Auburn was close to 5K. Without looking, I would say for each of those years, those games were probably the 2nd highest attended after the A&M game.

 

[crazylegs]

Its more Duke Fans Fans than SWAC Fans in the SWAC. :lol:

Duke is a good team, location doesnt matter...it will be a 30 point blow out in North Carolina or the Backwoods of Mississippi..it doesn't matter...it is still going to happen if the product the SWAC puts on the court is still the same.

lol....amen to to that.

It starts with the product that's out on the floor. You build that by getting coaches and administration that are going to do what's necessary to build a good, competitive program the right way. Recuiting isn't as hard for the little guy as it used to be. there's talent everywhere; alot of it needs to be developed after they get to school.

As far as playing against like talent, that comes with being a Division 1 program...Heck, if we're gonna have that type of thinking for B-Ball, we might as well take all of the teams in conference and move them to Div.2 right now :shame: .

the goal should be no different for us than the kids at Slippery Rock, Cornell, or other smaller schools.

 

[Tigerpride]

MH......Not smacking..........just stating my opinion.:lecture:
It's just like the thinking about our football teams.
We can't "compete" so we take ourselves completely out the picture and then cry when we are treated like second class citizens.

That is two totally different things. Just like we play money games in bball for money, we out out of the Playoffs for money. We can compete with 1-AA football teams and we do. We just choose not to go to the playoffs and lose money and I think that is a wise decision. Other conferences can't do that becasue they could not draw 20-40K to a championship game.

In bball, I like the NIT becasue it is the closest thing we have to a mid-major tournament. Why do you want to compete with the number one team in bball but in football you don't want to be 1-A? I don't know about you but to me, if JSU had won the NIT this year with teams in that tourney like MS State, UNC, UConn, and UAB, I would take it with a smile over going to the NCAA tourney for a one and done.

BUT as with anything. Our problem is money and fan support. If we get those two things, we won't be having this conversation. I want everything that you all want but I ain't gonna sit here and act like we can consistently compete with even UNC-Charlotte with our budget and support. The OVC might have far less fan support than us in football but in bball, they are head and shoulders above us. Southern can travel 5-10K deep to a football game and JSU fans laugh at having 8K fans in Memorial but where are those fans during bball season? :lecture:

 

[Tigerpride]

the goal should be no different for us than the kids at Slippery Rock, Cornell, or other smaller schools.

What exactly is their goal? As I ask the MEAC all the time. If they win the 1-AA national championship in 2025, is it worth it? :lol: Slippery Rock, Cornell and others (BTW, Cornell ain't exactly a small school...lol) are not competing for a national championship. They are just playing in the NCAA tournament. Next year, they probably won't even make the NIT.

Had Cornell played Duke in the first round, they would be at home right now. They benefit from RPI. The SWAC needs a higher RPI and UAPB might be Cornell right now. Just like I don't care about people saying JSU is 0-12 in the playoffs. We played the national champ in most of those years so no one else they played beat them either. Give us a lower seed and we might have been a 2 to 3 win team in the playoffs. It's all about the seed and the RPI. That is why we all need to wish each other well. We need 10 strong programs. Anything less will give us a 16th seed even IF our champion had to ability to beat some NCAA teams in the field of 64.

 

[mighty hornet]

That is two totally different things. Just like we play money games in bball for money, we out out of the Playoffs for money. We can compete with 1-AA football teams and we do. We just choose not to go to the playoffs and lose money and I think that is a wise decision. Other conferences can't do that becasue they could not draw 20-40K to a championship game.

In bball, I like the NIT becasue it is the closest thing we have to a mid-major tournament.

The NIT is a tournament for teams that FAILED to get to the NCAAs. Point blank. It isnt a first choice for anybody, why would you think SWAC teams should make it their first choice?

I don't know about you but to me, if JSU had won the NIT this year with teams in that tourney like MS State, UNC, UConn, and UAB, I would take it with a smile over going to the NCAA tourney for a one and done.

and by the same stretch of a wild imagination, if PB had won the NCAA this year, that would far outshine winning the NIT.

but back to the real world, both the NCAA and NIT were a "one and done" deal.

 

[stroke]

But You Know the Thing is that those other schools get a win ever now and then. They make a run in the Tournament every now and then.. But we never make a Run... Do you Understand that WE NEVER do anything... morgan State Beat maryland and Arknsas in Back to Back years... When was the last time (other then the recent PB win) have we beat anyone one OOC that had a winning record?

 

[skyvolt2000]

Funny story, recall when 8 regular students at Grambling played a preseason Exhibition against Our Basketball Team. The Regular students beat Grambling by 20.. Why Coach Wright didnt cut all his players and pick up the Students, I dont know.. Or that might have been Coach Reyonalds Team..

I would guess the coach didn't think about those players because they were guys other schools were after and they got dumped at the last moment.

One of my coworker's kid was starting QB at his high school and got screwed over by the school recruiting him. He's at PV and might tryout for the team this upcoming season.

This is why schools leave spots open for walk ons. I think Baylor and a few otehr schools have guys that play football all season and fill in spots on basketball teams.

When was the last time have we beat anyone one OOC that had a winning record?

I want to say North Texas-they do have a losing record to the SWAC. I think thier last loss was to Jackson State in 2005. I'm not home to check thier record at the time of that loss.
If the SWAC schools had decent media guides I could really tell you a date. Seeing this thread is about to close-I might have to start another one to give a better answer.

Texas A&M, Baylor, and La. Tech

Baylor had no choice but to get better after being ruined by Dave Bliss
Texas A&M-oddly got fan support after the black coach-Melvin Watkins left and suddenly someone was winning with his recruited players. The last 3 guys drafted were recruited by him and not his conman replacement.

As for Connell-it Ivy League-you already got kids trying to get in that place despite basketball skills. It's also located near big cities and has a history.

 

[chrisd]

Yes, the kids at Cornell have high regular AND basketball IQ's, which helps a lot. They aren't the most athletically gifted, but they play the game smart, and they can shoot the lights out from behind the three point line.

 

[Tigerpride]

The NIT is a tournament for teams that FAILED to get to the NCAAs. Point blank. It isnt a first choice for anybody, why would you think SWAC teams should make it their first choice?

Then why do people put any stock in the NCAA 1-AA Playoffs? It's the same concept no matter how you spin it. The only difference is that all the teams are grouped together instead of divided as they should be.

and by the same stretch of a wild imagination, if PB had won the NCAA this year, that would far outshine winning the NIT.

but back to the real world, both the NCAA and NIT were a "one and done" deal.

Yes, they were one and done but the NIT championship is an attainable goal for where we are. We have to improve to compete there but not as much as we would have to improve to even get to the second round of the NCAA tournament. If UAPB won the NCAA, yes it would outshine the NIT championship but the NCAA championship is not attainable for the SWAC and you and I both know it. It's no more attainable than the BCS championship.