When did the 'STANDS' become more important than the 'FIELD'?

[SUtrp96]

I read you loud and clear. My qualm with this philosphy is that the priorities are out of order. The first responsibility of the marching band program must be to educate. Entertainment comes second. It is great to have people roaring for what you do. The gratification is wonderful. But, if the generic fan does not a great show to be entertaining for them, I really could not care a flying rip. If it is entertaining but not executed with precision, I am going to chew a hole in the band. All this talk about "gettin' house" disgusts me. I'll take the respect and admiration of the peers and professionals for my level of execution over the flattery of the fans any day.

Put it this way, if I were a recording artist, I would appreciate an American Music Award or a People's Choice Award but I would feel incomplete without a Grammy.

I think what some of you are missing is we all agree! The bands should educate... But we have A FEW BANDS educating the crowd.. But it is far more bands giving them that BULLSHAT....

It like the bands that are under the same direction is getting preached to but the bands that is bull-shatting (skaing it fast-getting all the cheap house) is getting told nothing... They will continue to do that foolishness, and the ground will continue to go with the foolishness...

ALL bands must make a change, for the crowd to TRULY apprciate what we do....:tup:

 

[PVJAGUAR]

I think what some of you are missing is we all agree! The bands should educate... But we have A FEW BANDS educating the crowd.. But it is far more bands giving them that BULLSHAT....

It like the bands that are under the same direction is getting preached to but the bands that is bull-shatting (skaing it fast-getting all the cheap house) is getting told nothing... They will continue to do that foolishness, and the ground will continue to go with the foolishness...

ALL bands must make a change, for the crowd to TRULY apprciate what we do....:tup:

this is so true...show people a side of music that they never knew about..

 

[Legend35]

Well,...I guess I'm not in a minority group after all.

 

[ZNSPR8502]

The first responsibility of the marching band program must be to educate. Entertainment comes second. It is great to have people roaring for what you do. The gratification is wonderful. All this talk about "gettin' house" disgusts me. I'll take the respect and admiration of the peers and professionals for my level of execution over the flattery of the fans any day.

Put it this way, if I were a recording artist, I would appreciate an American Music Award or a People's Choice Award but I would feel incomplete without a Grammy.

I was a Computer Science major. JR was a Physics major. I believe Big Thunder was a Business Management major. There were about a handful of music majors (potential band directors/entertainers) marching and playing with us. How was it the Jukebox's top priority to educate us? Now the classrooms at SU taught us some serious lessons and fulfilled our top priority for attending SU ? preparing us to excel in our professions.

When you speak of great shows, that is determined by the audience. When you perform for an HBCU game, that is a different judge than when you perform for the Dallas Cowboys or for the Presidential Inauguration or for Northwestern State University or for the Rose Bowl.

You speak of pleasing the audience as though you are performing for people that don't know the difference between sorry, poor, good, great and outstanding performances. That is a shame, because those paying customers are why you are there. Otherwise, they could sell the seats you are sitting in and generate more money for that athletic program. If you reviewed some of the ole school post out here recently, you see that the Juke that I proudly marched in was fortunate to have thrilled crowds of all kinds in various parts of the country. That was done extremely professionally and with variety. We played R&B, Soul, Jazz, Gospel, Rap, New Orleans, Blues, Marches, Patriotic, etc... We were strong precision drillers. We had top notch female dancing, quality vocals, entertaining dance routines, quality solos, etc... Why did we do it? It was our every desire to please our fans, whether they were 5 years old or 85 years old. We wanted every one of them to be on their feet for us during and especially after we finished. Why do the likes of Stevie Wonder, Yolanda Adams, Wynton Marsalis, EWF, etc... continue to produce hit records/tapes/CDs and pack concert venues year after year? They produce quality that appeals to a massive audience.

I promise you every band that we faced respected us ? even FAMU who didn?t respect us when they came to BR in ?86, but did when they left BR and even the FAMU crowd who didn?t respect us when we arrived in ?87, but definitely did when we left. A majority of the individuals in the audiences that we performed for respected and appreciated us (black, white or whatever). So much so, the Governor deemed us as Ambassadors for the State of Louisiana.

I've seen and read far too much personal arrogance in band members today. All the talk about how good they are and how crowds don't respect quality is pathetic. You are going to get great love from a crowd when you don't bring energy to your performance. Going through the motions as though those observing you owe you something gets you nowhere fast. Thus, in marching band, you come off the field to hand claps or quiet stares.

Peace...

 

[ClevePVAMU]

When I read comments about the lack of creativity in the college shows and the 10-minute rule (we have 9 minutes in HS), it really makes me wonder HOW EFFICIENTLY we are working with our 18-23 year-olds at the college level.

There's a LOT of time being wasted at some of these rehearsals, which means there's no planning for rehearsal. You have to prepare for practice like you prepare for the game.

Texas HS's get 8 minutes for UIL contest, 10 for haltime.

 

[dacontinent]

I was a Computer Science major. JR was a Physics major. I believe Big Thunder was a Business Management major. There were about a handful of music majors (potential band directors/entertainers) marching and playing with us. How was it the Jukebox's top priority to educate us? Now the classrooms at SU taught us some serious lessons and fulfilled our top priority for attending SU – preparing us to excel in our professions...

Well, I don't know about SU, but we got classroom credit for playing in the marching band ensemble at Jackson State. That meant the bandroom, sectionals, practice field, and games combined as a classroom just like English composition, world history, economics, or physical education. As a computer science major myself, I also took courses in the above disciplines that prepared me to excel in my profession. The objective or each of those classes was to educate me. It is the responsibility of the university to do so. It is why I gave them money. Even though I was not an English composition major I am a fantastic writer and grammarian. Though I am a system analyst, I spend much more time reading and writing than I do anything else. I also spend an awful lot more time doing cost analysis evaluations than I do reading core dumps from abending programs. Now, there were English composition majors, economics majors, history majors, and PE majors in those courses with me 25+ years ago who were not taught anything different than I was. The instructors were there to educate all of us. I doubt that things were much different at SU.

Now, there are courses more intended for music education majors where they are taught marching band techniques, drill design, and music composition for the purpose of preparing those persons to be band directors, just like we didn't have many history majors taking courses in database management. Mr. Haughton, Prof. Davis and Poppa Dup never seemed to hold back anything that would help all of us from an educational perspective, regardless to what our majors were. We were taught to be their replacements and not just their protege. They understood that the measure of the university and themselves as professionals was not our performances at the university while under their direct scrutiny but after we left with the sheepskin. I have the same impression of Doc Greggs and his staff.

The excellence in performance is a by-product of the education given to a college band because it is full of AMATEURS who are paying to be taught by professionals. Otherwise, the amateurs could be left to themselves and should be able to do as well or better than they do in being taught.

The "Dr. Lee's" line from the movie DRUMLINE about education before entertainment is right on point. So is "President Wagner's" line about the alumni contributing money. My challenge was to make sure that the alumni were educated and valued that the university's role. As for the fans who yell and scream and generate the rush of emotion and all the "house" , do you honestly believe that 10% of them have any technical appreciation for the work, effort, hours, study that the Jukebox, Yolanda Adams, Stevie Wonder, EWF, or Wynton Marsalis go through to even prepare to produce those excellent performances? No chance. Oh, they certainly know what they hear and see and whether it or not it is a good performance; but they have no idea of the lessons that the performers and the supporting staff learned along the way nor will they be able to help educate and benefit other performers with them in the future. On the other hand, though you were a computer science major and probably haven't marched in a band since you left SU, a local HS band director would love to have your years of experience with marching technique, composition, drill design, and sound production to be able to call on and help the youngsters in those programs.

 

[JR]

I was a Computer Science major. JR was a Physics major. I believe Big Thunder was a Business Management major. There were about a handful of music majors (potential band directors/entertainers) marching and playing with us. How was it the Jukebox's top priority to educate us? Now the classrooms at SU taught us some serious lessons and fulfilled our top priority for attending SU ? preparing us to excel in our professions.

When you speak of great shows, that is determined by the audience. When you perform for an HBCU game, that is a different judge than when you perform for the Dallas Cowboys or for the Presidential Inauguration or for Northwestern State University or for the Rose Bowl.

You speak of pleasing the audience as though you are performing for people that don't know the difference between sorry, poor, good, great and outstanding performances. That is a shame, because those paying customers are why you are there. Otherwise, they could sell the seats you are sitting in and generate more money for that athletic program. If you reviewed some of the ole school post out here recently, you see that the Juke that I proudly marched in was fortunate to have thrilled crowds of all kinds in various parts of the country. That was done extremely professionally and with variety. We played R&B, Soul, Jazz, Gospel, Rap, New Orleans, Blues, Marches, Patriotic, etc... We were strong precision drillers. We had top notch female dancing, quality vocals, entertaining dance routines, quality solos, etc... Why did we do it? It was our every desire to please our fans, whether they were 5 years old or 85 years old. We wanted every one of them to be on their feet for us during and especially after we finished. Why do the likes of Stevie Wonder, Yolanda Adams, Wynton Marsalis, EWF, etc... continue to produce hit records/tapes/CDs and pack concert venues year after year? They produce quality that appeals to a massive audience.

I promise you every band that we faced respected us ? even FAMU who didn?t respect us when they came to BR in ?86, but did when they left BR and even the FAMU crowd who didn?t respect us when we arrived in ?87, but definitely did when we left. A majority of the individuals in the audiences that we performed for respected and appreciated us (black, white or whatever). So much so, the Governor deemed us as Ambassadors for the State of Louisiana.

I've seen and read far too much personal arrogance in band members today. All the talk about how good they are and how crowds don't respect quality is pathetic. You are going to get great love from a crowd when you don't bring energy to your performance. Going through the motions as though those observing you owe you something gets you nowhere fast. Thus, in marching band, you come off the field to hand claps or quiet stares.

Peace...

LB,
Good Post. Excuses are being made today on doing good halftime shows. Bands can still play a popular tune, jazz tune, and do a nice classy dance routine with the current stuff and get some house. The gimmicks is what kills me these days. If I see another fat boy, white boy, fat girls routine I am going to scream. Cheap House is right. All the bands are doing it. I can't remember ever doing that when we played. I mean we had our skits/dance routines. Actually we got house more on the routines with the least amount of dancing like "The Show" by Dougie Fresh. Sure times were different back then. Actually since a lot of bands were bringing it more than they are now, the crowds were even more critical. I noticed that at SU home games. Our crowds expected different drills and dance routines. I was just thinking about all the different drills we did in 85. I also remember doing songs that got the crowd involved like "I need money." Ole Patrick Powell got the crowd going. Alot of the personality is lacking from performances. The energy and enthusiasm is not there. It looks like the kids are not really wanting to be on the field. I don't know. I just think times have changed and the young folks are too laidback. Remember when we were crabs and the horses would say "Bust It" before playing every song. That used to get me hyped up. I have seen some of the practices now in the bandroom and it is too laidback for me. We used to be off the wall. Energy. Repoirtore(sp) Night on Fridays used to prepare us for Saturday. Okay, I am off my soapbox. It is a new era and I have to accept it. I am just glad I came along when we did.

 

[SUtrp96]

Speaking on behalf of the time I marched at SU and those that came after me... SU has had shows where the crowd stood and gave standing ovations.. This was before "the cheap house era took over".....

Example: 1995 "Micheal Jackson Theme" Mad house.. House rival that of that show that is posted.. The WHOLE stadium was singing alone with that entire show, I know this because I was there.

My crab year or any year for that matter, MOST places we went we housed out..MAD house!! And they were classic shows, UP to date music and dance skits..

When EVER Jackson came to BR, check your footage if you didn't follow the Jukebox back then, WE housed out MAD house...House to where we had folk from the 80's standing by the gates like we just won a championship!!

The thing that gets me is SOME old school folk act like the job wasn't getting done after their time are the time they remember.

It ain't no excuses being made, just fact! You all had MUCH better quality up to date music to lay and that was hitting the airing waves.. Rap and hip hop was not as huge as it is today and during my day. That was the change, you trying to compare a time where the crowd was educated by Michael Jackson, Al Jarreau, EWF, Rick James, Prince so on and so forth. Those type artist are not dominating the charts any more thus the CROWD has CHANGED...

SU played "FLY LIKE A BIRD" when hardly anyone knew what it was, that's what TOP notch bands are dealing with these days...

Be fortunate you all marched in a time when the music was really music and the radio played REAL MUSIC. People only want to hear whats on the radio.
I know folk from you all time that understand that, but for some reason most that I see on here is the type that often say (they ain't nothing like us) You have folk like that in every group, good thing I hang around an older group that is a bit open minded then that.. All this they not working hard enough to please the crowd is crazy. Every band out of the 80's didn't drive like 83 or 84.. Even in that 85 clip folk aren't really driving like 83 or 84 was... That right there tells you, the CROWD aren't focused that (I wish they were) They focused on what they know (the music).

If the crowd now want to see a band shake and play the latest rap tunes, you will have a hard time wowing them. I am mainly speaking on (JAG NATION)... You know like I know SU crowd is one of the hardest to please. We usually have no problem pleasing crowds on the road and really don't have a problem pleasing our home corwd...

SU focus on field shows haven't changed since most of you all were in the band and I like that fact.. You all had much more time than we have now a days on the field...

Perfect example: That 85 show. That same show in 97-present would have been CUT. We already know DOC wasn't going to cut no drill... Dance routine was going to be cut, are buddy singing at the end was going to be cut..Which also equates the HOUSE would have been cut. House is supposed to build up.. Now I will say it was DOC that always wanted to come off the field with the fight song in his ( I have nothing to prove time) again be fortunate you all were born agead of time to not have to deal with that. I know Mr.J will change that, that one thing along will change the elevation of house even though very little time is given on the field.
Dance Routines: Are you guys even being open minded to KNOW the jukebox KNOWS the latest dance steps? The crowd no longer want to see those type of dance steps anymore, they only want to see you shake. We had cheorgraphers in our band the has dance studios and being HONEST our latest steps were better than the steps you all were doing.. Again the CROWD changed, thank FAMU for that, for all their countless GOOSHES.... Band brought that to Mumford and Jag Nation hasn't been the same since.

Heck we had many of time we had shows very similar to that show like 85 in MIND, but couldn't do it because of time. Doc did not believe in cutting a drill ( I respect him for that) where I come from the best bands didn't dance no way and we had mad respect from the crowd, because WE EDUCATED the crowd the respect our DRILLS....ALL New Orleans bands stuck to this code though... The year ONE band started dancing in New Orleans, shat changed..

What you are reading aren't excuses it being a realist. To sit here and act like the crowd went crazy because you feel/think you all worked harder than bands after you is being totally biased and not being open minded at all...

You all can sit here and act as if the SAME quality music that was hitting the radio back then that was EFFECTING the crowd back then is the same now, but all you are doing is building up your egos with out even being real about the situation.

It's obvious something is suffering if bands that are marching on the field for 4 to 8 counts and start shaking and are recieving the SAME or MORE amount of house you all recieved and even we recieved some of the time I was in the band.. Difference is I know the band is operating the same and ALWAYS has the same GOAL in mind week to week just as they did years ago.


Do any of you listen to the radio any more? Honestly I barely do, why?

If you do listen you would hear songs like.

Laffy Taffy
Bet you can't do it like me..

The Newest one "It's going Down"
Name some songs that would have had the same effect as "ROCK ME TONIGHT" during this time. That was the type of shat being played OVER and OVER on the radio back then. Wake up people....smh

 

[SUtrp96]

LB,
Good Post. Excuses are being made today on doing good halftime shows. Bands can still play a popular tune, jazz tune, and do a nice classy dance routine with the current stuff and get some house. The gimmicks is what kills me these days. If I see another fat boy, white boy, fat girls routine I am going to scream. Cheap House is right. All the bands are doing it. I can't remember ever doing that when we played. I mean we had our skits/dance routines. Actually we got house more on the routines with the least amount of dancing like "The Show" by Dougie Fresh. Sure times were different back then. Actually since a lot of bands were bringing it more than they are now, the crowds were even more critical. I noticed that at SU home games. Our crowds expected different drills and dance routines. I was just thinking about all the different drills we did in 85. I also remember doing songs that got the crowd involved like "I need money." Ole Patrick Powell got the crowd going. Alot of the personality is lacking from performances. The energy and enthusiasm is not there. It looks like the kids are not really wanting to be on the field. I don't know. I just think times have changed and the young folks are too laidback. Remember when we were crabs and the horses would say "Bust It" before playing every song. That used to get me hyped up. I have seen some of the practices now in the bandroom and it is too laidback for me. We used to be off the wall. Energy. Repoirtore(sp) Night on Fridays used to prepare us for Saturday. Okay, I am off my soapbox. It is a new era and I have to accept it. I am just glad I came along when we did.

JR in 95 and 96 we did atleast 10 different drills, never repeated the same show at home none of those years. The crowd care more about the music being played rather than the drill, I haven't seen any SU band that look like they don't want to be on the field.... That's wild man, point out some games you noticed this, I have tapes and DVDs from 83 up to now..I'll check..:tup:

 

[ClevePVAMU]

I'm seeing both sides of y'alls argument...

The 80s were different from the 90s, which were different from the 200os...you have to look at the type of music AND the caliber of player.

A lot of the new music that's getting airtime is microwaved - two chords (if that much) and boom-boom-snap done on some Pro Tools, and we and the kids swallow it, like it's really tight. We have to become better consumers and force these people to put out better stuff (yea, good luck, right?...lol).

The kids coming into these programs are NOT the same...they are used to thing being handed to them. Kicking arse on the field takes WORK and ENERGY, and most of them have been used to skating and getting away with it in HS, whereas you can stand still in the stands and just blow...that's that lazy bullshat. A lot of these bands really DON'T want to be on the field, and it shows.

If these band directors would design better shows, the band would get into it more, and the crowd would get into it more...

 

[Killer Bees]

I usually don't comment in this forum that much, but I love watching HBCU bands.

I only care about

1. Music
2. Drilling (I mean real drilling)
3. Dance routines (rarely)

Dance routines are usually most boring parts of the show IMHO. They are usually more entertaining to the kids. I think too many bands depend on #3.

I also hate it when bands wait until the 5th to bring out their most entertaining music selections. Yes ASU is guilty of this as well as a lot of other bands I seen in the past.

 

[SUtrp96]

I usually don't comment in this forum that much, but I love watching HBCU bands.

I only care about

1. Music
2. Drilling (I mean real drilling)
3. Dance routines (rarely)

Dance routines are usually most boring parts of the show IMHO. They are usually more entertaining to the kids. I think too many bands depend on #3.

I also hate it when bands wait until the 5th to bring out their most entertaining music selections. Yes ASU is guilty of this as well as a lot of other bands I seen in the past.

That exactly the main point...
Back in the 80s kids and parents JAM the same music.. So it was easier to appeal to almost everybody.. Now it's a mixed crowd and style of music people enjoy....

It's as simple as this:

80s- early 90s
QUALITY R & B - teens,and adults
Jazz - some teens, adults
Hip-Hop -teens and some adults

Mid 90s-2000s
R & B - Adults
Jazz - Adults
Hip Hop - teens and some adults

 

[JR]

JR in 95 and 96 we did atleast 10 different drills, never repeated the same show at home none of those years. The crowd care more about the music being played rather than the drill, I haven't seen any SU band that look like they don't want to be on the field.... That's wild man, point out some games you noticed this, I have tapes and DVDs from 83 up to now..I'll check..:tup:

We will agree to disagree. We have our opinion and you guys have yours. I am sure the 70's cats say the 80s wasn't bringing it like they were and they are probably right. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't march with no Branford Marsalis type sax player, No Randy Jackson, no Charlie Singleton's, Now Lawrence Jackson's, no Carnell Knighten's, Roy Johnson's.

I think you guys get so offended when us older heads ,because now yall are old heads too, when we say we had more drive and determination. That is not just band related. It is fact across the board in sports, music, corporate america. Life has changed. Things are different than it was in the 80s. When you marched in the Jukebox.......long gone was some of the type of cats ZN, Big Thunder and I marched with. I have come back to enough games to see the enthusiasm aint the same.

I am not saying we didn't have folks skate on the field. We all have during every year. But if you are telling me that you can't see the difference in the band you played in versus the ones we did. For example you guys had no baritones players like Carmen, Ben, Piere, Percy, Ansel, Flip, etc come through all at one time. Or have a whole First trumpet section that Mr. Thornton of Willowridge HS worked with at Forest Brook Houston show up in a 2 year span. Those cats came out of Houston playing some serious isht. Hell Doc will tell you that now. That's not saying the cats you played with couldn't play. They could. But sometimes you get folks who are on another level. Both musically and personality wise. I can tell you have that kind of drive and I have met some like Haymer who also had it. But you and I both know there is a difference. You guys were exceptions to the rule. I don't see a bunch of Derrick Hilliards, Dearbone's, Zock's, Frank Williams, Domino's, Big Wills etc in the band now.

The HS programs were putting them out there back then. Alot of kids put their horns down now to do other things due to budget cuts at our schools. Sports now is bigger than ever, so parents have been steering their kids that way more than they were in the 80s. Most of my friends who have kids have them playing ball instead of music. So that tells you something right there. This is a sports dominated era so a lot of talented kids will be doing something else than playing an instrument.

Another thing different is that you guys came to SU with more than just band in mind which is a good thing. I marched with so many guys who were at SU just for band. It was their life. You are correct in saying we had better music to play. That is true. No one will dispute that. We also know they cut the halftime shows down by 2 minutes as well.

What ZN and I are saying is that even with the show some bands do. You just don't see that hypeness. I will admit it got watered down each year I was there. But now even on homecoming in the band room it is silence. Man we would be off the chain in the band room during homecoming. Just this year we all were in the band room and it was like a regular game atmosphere.

ZN will tell you and Oops will too on how animated it used to be in there. We told Doc that he had lightened up in his old age. Because it used to be crunk in the big room. I'll give you an example on some changes. The way the band kicks on 8 and whip turns. Look at present tapes and then go back and look at the 80s tapes. It almost looks like a different style all together. My LBs comment on that all the time.

Every since Chester left (rest his soul) the marching style changed a little. Folks take their horns out their mouths to whip turn more. Now I am not saying we never had anybody to do that. But you see that way more now. I will not even comment on what my best friend who was in the Boom thinks about what happened to their swing and sway marching style over the years.

Again this is not to bash what you guys did. We are proud of that. I just think you guys feel slighted if someone says that the 80s were better or that the personality of the band was different. We were raised differently than most of you guys were so of course we had a different mentality. But I guess you guys don't see that. Spend a few moments talking with some of the New Orleans cats we had in the Juke back then. I bet you could relate and see what I am talking about. I don't mean the ones who just put down any version of the Juke they didn't march in. I mean the ones like Oops, Celestine, Santa Cruz, Derrick Shields, Mark Johnson, The Giles brothers, Dickaloo, them type cats. I am sure you have met most of them at some point. Heck after hearing Branford talk about their time in the Juke. I wish I could have marched in the 70s. Us 80s cats have no qualm in saying hell yeah them mofos were better than we were overall. Not even a question about it. I wouldn't have wanted to battle them cats at all.

 

[SLT]

Good Luck JR! :tup: :lol:

 

[JR]

Good Luck JR! :tup: :lol:

LOL @ Soror. It is all good. I respect them 90s cats and the current cats. Things and attitudes are just different across the board in life in general. Nothing more nothing less. Is it for the better. Some instances yes, but some instances it is not. I guess we were different. It didn't bother me when the older school cats talked about their era. I marveled at it and was like damn them were some bad mofos and had no issue in saying we were not on their level. Heck I know dang well I never marched with no Tuba player as bad as current SU band director Mr. Jackson was. And just think he wasn't even the coldest one at that time. Them 70s bands were unmatched and heck we had music to play in the 80s.

 

[SLT]

LOL @ Soror. It is all good. I respect them 90s cats and the current cats. Things and attitudes are just different across the board in life in general. Nothing more nothing less. Is it for the better. Some instances yes, but some instances it is not. I guess we were different. It didn't bother me when the older school cats talked about their era. I marveled at it and was like damn them were some bad mofos and had no issue in saying we were not on their level. Heck I know dang well I never marched with no Tuba player as bad as current SU band director Mr. Jackson was. And just think he wasn't even the coldest one at that time. Them 70s bands were unmatched and heck we had music to play in the 80s.

You're preaching to the choir Frat, you're preaching to the choir! :hat: :lol:

 

[PsychoJag]

I agree with JR and I see where Jared is coming from. I think that the decline in drive was a result of Doc feeling that he had something to prove. My favorite SU band is 85, my church members that were in that 85 band tell me that 74 was the best, some Juke from the 70's say 69 was the best, some of the newer Juke think 95 was the best and so on and so forth. Even in the stands at football games you see a difference from 80's, 90's, and 00's bands. That's just the way it is.

This is why I believe that The Jukebox will be so deadly this year, there's new and younger blood in charge and a man that has alot to prove.

 

[JR]

I agree with JR and I see where Jared is coming from. I think that the decline in drive was a result of Doc feeling that he had something to prove. My favorite SU band is 85, my church members that were in that 85 band tell me that 74 was the best, some Juke from the 70's say 69 was the best, some of the newer Juke think 95 was the best and so on and so forth. Even in the stands at football games you see a difference from 80's, 90's, and 00's bands. That's just the way it is.

This is why I believe that The Jukebox will be so deadly this year, there's new and younger blood in charge and a man that has alot to prove.

Good Post. It is all in cycles. I sincerely believe that under Mr. Jackson, there might be some history making versions of the Juke. You are right about Doc not feeling like he had comp or anything to prove. Heck some would say he was not as vocal as he was in the 70s. But we had Roy and the ones before me had Bob(TJ Sr) to overcome some of it. That's why I don't ever fault the individuals in the band. It is on the directors.

 

[SLT]

I agree with JR and I see where Jared is coming from. I think that the decline in drive was a result of Doc feeling that he had something to prove. My favorite SU band is 85, my church members that were in that 85 band tell me that 74 was the best, some Juke from the 70's say 69 was the best, some of the newer Juke think 95 was the best and so on and so forth. Even in the stands at football games you see a difference from 80's, 90's, and 00's bands. That's just the way it is.

This is why I believe that The Jukebox will be so deadly this year, there's new and younger blood in charge and a man that has alot to prove.

:tup:

 

[dacontinent]

... the CROWD aren't focused that (I wish they were) They focused on what they know (the music).

I will only disagree with you ever so slightly: what they are focused on is whatever they saw on BET/MTV/VH1. They want to see the band's version of the video. We didn't have such back in the day so the music was much more important. Like you say, for the bulk of the junk (two chords and a hook) that sets up what the crowd wants to see (the dance), they can go down and produce themselves playing around on the synthesizers and drum machines at the local store. They can feel the rhythm, but they still can't make any music. The band can.

If the crowd now want to see a band shake and play the latest rap tunes, you will have a hard time wowing them.

And if they are that shallow, I will never be concerned about wowing them or what they think about my lack of an attempt to do so. Since my first responsibility is the MUSIC EDUCATION OF THE STUDENTS, the crowd is at best secondary.

Dance Routines: Are you guys even being open minded to KNOW the jukebox KNOWS the latest dance steps? The crowd no longer want to see those type of dance steps anymore, they only want to see you shake...

Let's see...when was the last time a Jaycette, Dancing Doll, 14K, etc., came out to do her dance routine but picked up her musical instrument and played a solo or as a group while dancing? Is that crickets I hear? Then, why are we still sending our musicians out to dance - especially when the dance troupe already did it better? And, please, please, please ... we don't need a pack of DM's to be another dance troupe on the field. Conduct the band and direct the drills, or strap your instrument back on and help the band make some music.

Heck we had many of time we had shows very similar to that show like 85 in MIND, but couldn't do it because of time. Doc did not believe in cutting a drill ( I respect him for that) where I come from the best bands didn't dance no way and we had mad respect from the crowd, because WE EDUCATED the crowd the respect our DRILLS....ALL New Orleans bands stuck to this code though... The year ONE band started dancing in New Orleans, shat changed..

So, let's turn it around and go back the other way. Take a stand and educate the students first. The crowds will always lag a little, but they will catch on as the excellence of execution shines through.

What you are reading aren't excuses it being a realist. To sit here and act like the crowd went crazy because you feel/think you all worked harder than bands after you is being totally biased and not being open minded at all...

You all can sit here and act as if the SAME quality music that was hitting the radio back then that was EFFECTING the crowd back then is the same now, but all you are doing is building up your egos with out even being real about the situation.

What we produced on the field and in the stands was a by-product of hard work. There is no doubt about that and there are no shortcuts. We could have been a lot more efficient in our rehearsals and produced as well or better. The HS band that I work with is evidence of that.

When it comes to the music, we have to do what is right for the band and not for the radio & crowd. There is plenty of good music out there to choose from, but we are making bad choices for the bands. Any band that plays a rap tune takes an immediate "L" from me. Yes, I have given out dual "L's" to both bands and will continue. It may be a great beat or hook, but if it does not go anywhere musically PLEASE DO NOT PLAY IT IN YOUR MARCHING BAND.

 

[SUtrp96]

We will agree to disagree. We have our opinion and you guys have yours. I am sure the 70's cats say the 80s wasn't bringing it like they were and they are probably right. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't march with no Branford Marsalis type sax player, No Randy Jackson, no Charlie Singleton's, Now Lawrence Jackson's, no Carnell Knighten's, Roy Johnson's.

I think you guys get so offended when us older heads ,because now yall are old heads too, when we say we had more drive and determination. That is not just band related. It is fact across the board in sports, music, corporate america. Life has changed. Things are different than it was in the 80s. When you marched in the Jukebox.......long gone was some of the type of cats ZN, Big Thunder and I marched with. I have come back to enough games to see the enthusiasm aint the same.

I am not saying we didn't have folks skate on the field. We all have during every year. But if you are telling me that you can't see the difference in the band you played in versus the ones we did. For example you guys had no baritones players like Carmen, Ben, Piere, Percy, Ansel, Flip, etc come through all at one time. Or have a whole First trumpet section that Mr. Thornton of Willowridge HS worked with at Forest Brook Houston show up in a 2 year span. Those cats came out of Houston playing some serious isht. Hell Doc will tell you that now. That's not saying the cats you played with couldn't play. They could. But sometimes you get folks who are on another level. Both musically and personality wise. I can tell you have that kind of drive and I have met some like Haymer who also had it. But you and I both know there is a difference. You guys were exceptions to the rule. I don't see a bunch of Derrick Hilliards, Dearbone's, Zock's, Frank Williams, Domino's, Big Wills etc in the band now.

The HS programs were putting them out there back then. Alot of kids put their horns down now to do other things due to budget cuts at our schools. Sports now is bigger than ever, so parents have been steering their kids that way more than they were in the 80s. Most of my friends who have kids have them playing ball instead of music. So that tells you something right there. This is a sports dominated era so a lot of talented kids will be doing something else than playing an instrument.

Another thing different is that you guys came to SU with more than just band in mind which is a good thing. I marched with so many guys who were at SU just for band. It was their life. You are correct in saying we had better music to play. That is true. No one will dispute that. We also know they cut the halftime shows down by 2 minutes as well.

What ZN and I are saying is that even with the show some bands do. You just don't see that hypeness. I will admit it got watered down each year I was there. But now even on homecoming in the band room it is silence. Man we would be off the chain in the band room during homecoming. Just this year we all were in the band room and it was like a regular game atmosphere.

ZN will tell you and Oops will too on how animated it used to be in there. We told Doc that he had lightened up in his old age. Because it used to be crunk in the big room. I'll give you an example on some changes. The way the band kicks on 8 and whip turns. Look at present tapes and then go back and look at the 80s tapes. It almost looks like a different style all together. My LBs comment on that all the time.

Every since Chester left (rest his soul) the marching style changed a little. Folks take their horns out their mouths to whip turn more. Now I am not saying we never had anybody to do that. But you see that way more now. I will not even comment on what my best friend who was in the Boom thinks about what happened to their swing and sway marching style over the years.

Again this is not to bash what you guys did. We are proud of that. I just think you guys feel slighted if someone says that the 80s were better or that the personality of the band was different. We were raised differently than most of you guys were so of course we had a different mentality. But I guess you guys don't see that. Spend a few moments talking with some of the New Orleans cats we had in the Juke back then. I bet you could relate and see what I am talking about. I don't mean the ones who just put down any version of the Juke they didn't march in. I mean the ones like Oops, Celestine, Santa Cruz, Derrick Shields, Mark Johnson, The Giles brothers, Dickaloo, them type cats. I am sure you have met most of them at some point. Heck after hearing Branford talk about their time in the Juke. I wish I could have marched in the 70s. Us 80s cats have no qualm in saying hell yeah them mofos were better than we were overall. Not even a question about it. I wouldn't have wanted to battle them cats at all.

You see there, that's my point exactly..
How do you know the level of players we had back in the band with me? Seriously think about what you trying to say.

We had a 38 piece trumpet section in 95 and 96 I would put up against ANY trumpet section.

Our 3rds and 2nds could have easily played 1st. Music was still being taught in my day man. Musicianship didn't really start to go down atleast in New Orleans I know until they took our elementary and middle school music programs away.

But I would be a fool to sit here and say I KNOW yourr section wasn't better than our musician wise. I don't/didn't know the level of playing you guys were on, and you can't say the same about our cats. Dayum near our whole section had YEARS of trumpet playing experience that went back to elementary school. 4 of my crab brothers are still on trumpet playing for the likes of Spike Lee, Hot 8 brass band is Spike Lees personal band, that whole band dayum near crabbed with me. Irvin Mayfield (Professional jazz trumpeter)and I played together in High School, Nicholas Payton ( often plays with Wyton) played with me in high school and I sat in on a gig with him.. We still had cat on that level are not far from it going up to SU.
My Middle School section leader had a contract with Quincy Jones, he fugg that up messing with drugs...

All of that to say, you can't possibly believe you KNOW the level of players we had. 95, 96 and 97 had a real tough group of trumpet players. We challenged EVERY night to make sure we kept our spot on the field.. That was the ONLY year I was in the band DOC had a HARD time figuring who to keep and take off of first... DOC auditioned our group 4 times before he gave seats.. We might not have SAID (SUPA 1st, 2nds and 3rds) But Knigthen and Mr. J Had thier select 5 to 6 out of each the 2nd and 3rd who they wanted on parts an octave higher than the first part...

Straight up we had a ton of All-State trumpet players in that section, and superior rating players that attended LMEA(Louisisana Music Education Association)
Our "average" range for our third trumpet players was an High Bflat right below Double C.. We had 3 or 4 on third that was RELIABLE to hit you an Grand E when ever you said "HIT IT". Same on 2nd, I'm not going to even speak on our first.

Trumpet was so serious that year DOC ended up picking 2 3rds for Stage Band, Santa Cruz played with us a few times...

You never even came on the bandroom and sat down with us brah... I still go in that bandroom and show them cats love... You are assuming a lot of thing that aren't true...

95, 96 and 97 had ALL-STAR t-bone sections.... 97 mainly because of numbers.. but 95 and 96 all them BONES could have easily been on 1st. We didn't have many Baritone in 95 or 96, BUT the ones we had including my CB that arranged "NECK" were outstanding... Lance Perkins (st.Aug New Orleans legend since he was in the 9th grade) Alfred Grow (Professional Trombonist) Terrence Taplin III (St. Aug Proffesional T-bonist) Chad Gales (St.Aug Professional Saxophonist)..We had another professional Sax player from Willowridge... I'm waiting for you to name a Mellophone section that was better than ANY I marched with... Ronald Barrier was called MR.MELLOPHONE, Mr.Knigthen and Doc say they don't know a Mellophone player to come threw SU better than him.

Kieth Harp played with the Louisiana Philharmonic Orchestra on Euphonium, and you want me to believe we didn't have quality players...lol


The only difference is DOC was younger your years thus HE was more energetic, so he worked the h3ll out of you guys, that don't mean he ain't work us.. But I know he worked you guys harder, thus the results of 83 and 84 HIGH KNEE lifts... Like I said I have footage of all other years.. only differenr from 86 was SIZE, it was easy to see the number 86 started off with lesson the quality, thus DOC cut the band down. 85 wasn't doing no serious KNEE LIFTS look at that 85 tape. I am a realist, I ain't goin gto bullshat ya, I'll give it to you straight up how it is.. It's one way with me, whats real.

Music was different, thus the crowd was differnt.. What they appreciatted then they do not appreciate now.. The average college student during your day do not listen to the same kind of music of the average college student today. That's fact.. H3ll do a survey....:tup:

That cause a huge split in what the crowd will react to.


And no I am not saying we had the exact energy on the field as the bands you were in. But I say you a lie if you going to say we looked like we ain't want to be on the field. The field was fun to us, were we as excited as you all? NO, you would be all that excited to if you had to come off the field dayum near every show to the fight song....lol EVERY SHOW we challenge coming off the field to the fight song.... I believe we were successful a few times.. My crab year when we came off to "Rock N Roll" our first time ever playing it...


Jr. I will go with you on you guys being more amped.. You had more to be amped for... Yall had time to do what ever you guys wanted to do, if you was in the bandroom my years you would know DOC used to cut our shows down atleast 3 time a week until he got his way... And DOC way is as you know it "SAME WAY" if it ain't broke don't fix it.. So in those regards, yes we were a bit less satisfied with what we were doing... Seems like DOC only let loose for the JSU and FAMU game or any game one of his buddy directors called him talking shat...

For you to think WE didn't do a different drill every week in 96 saying you didn't really follow us... I know for a fact we practiced a NEW drill EVERY week. Except for the Classic, that was the only week DOC mixe dshows together....:tup:

Even I posted clips of our band that would prove your statements wrong, you not changing your mind... Difference is I can respect what you guys did, but you can't do the same, that's kinda messed up. But I'll say this, we had a trumpet player for EACH trumpet player you all had.. I firmly believe that, Santa Cruz confirm that about 95 and 96 Trumpet sections... He crabbed 86, and DOC will tell you Santa Cruz is a great representative of what the 80's had as far as trumpets..

Check out 92 trumpet section while you at it... strongest 24 trumpet section I will EVER hear in my life....:tup:

 

[JR]

You see there, that's my point exactly..
How do you know the level of players we had back in the band with me? Seriously think about what you trying to say.

We had a 38 piece trumpet section in 95 and 96 I would put up against ANY trumpet section.

Our 3rds and 2nds could have easily played 1st. Music was still being taught in my day man. Musicianship didn't really start to go down atleast in New Orleans I know until they took our elementary and middle school music programs away.

But I would be a fool to sit here and say I KNOW yourr section wasn't better than our musician wise. I don't/didn't know the level of playing you guys were on, and you can't say the same about our cats. Dayum near our whole section had YEARS of trumpet playing experience that went back to elementary school. 4 of my crab brothers are still on trumpet playing for the likes of Spike Lee, Hot 8 brass band is Spike Lees personal band, that whole band dayum near crabbed with me. Irvin Mayfield (Professional jazz trumpeter)and I played together in High School, Nicholas Payton ( often plays with Wyton) played with me in high school and I sat in on a gig with him.. We still had cat on that level are not far from it going up to SU.
My Middle School section leader had a contract with Quincy Jones, he fugg that up messing with drugs...

All of that to say, you can't possibly believe you KNOW the level of players we had. 95, 96 and 97 had a real tough group of trumpet players. We challenged EVERY night to make sure we kept our spot on the field.. That was the ONLY year I was in the band DOC had a HARD time figuring who to keep and take off of first... DOC auditioned our group 4 times before he gave seats.. We might not have SAID (SUPA 1st, 2nds and 3rds) But Knigthen and Mr. J Had thier select 5 to 6 out of each the 2nd and 3rd who they wanted on parts an octave higher than the first part...

Straight up we had a ton of All-State trumpet players in that section, and superior rating players that attended LMEA(Louisisana Music Education Association)
Our "average" range for our third trumpet players was an High Bflat right below Double C.. We had 3 or 4 on third that was RELIABLE to hit you an Grand E when ever you said "HIT IT". Same on 2nd, I'm not going to even speak on our first.

Trumpet was so serious that year DOC ended up picking 2 3rds for Stage Band, Santa Cruz played with us a few times...

You never even came on the bandroom and sat down with us brah... I still go in that bandroom and show them cats love... You are assuming a lot of thing that aren't true...

95, 96 and 97 had ALL-STAR t-bone sections.... 97 mainly because of numbers.. but 95 and 96 all them BONES could have easily been on 1st. We didn't have many Baritone in 95 or 96, BUT the ones we had including my CB that arranged "NECK" were outstanding... Lance Perkins (st.Aug New Orleans legend since he was in the 9th grade) Alfred Grow (Professional Trombonist) Terrence Taplin III (St. Aug Proffesional T-bonist) Chad Gales (St.Aug Professional Saxophonist)..We had another professional Sax player from Willowridge... I'm waiting for you to name a Mellophone section that was better than ANY I marched with... Ronald Barrier was called MR.MELLOPHONE, Mr.Knigthen and Doc say they don't know a Mellophone player to come threw SU better than him.

Kieth Harp played with the Louisiana Philharmonic Orchestra on Euphonium, and you want me to believe we didn't have quality players...lol


The only difference is DOC was younger your years thus HE was more energetic, so he worked the h3ll out of you guys, that don't mean he ain't work us.. But I know he worked you guys harder, thus the results of 83 and 84 HIGH KNEE lifts... Like I said I have footage of all other years.. only differenr from 86 was SIZE, it was easy to see the number 86 started off with lesson the quality, thus DOC cut the band down. 85 wasn't doing no serious KNEE LIFTS look at that 85 tape. I am a realist, I ain't goin gto bullshat ya, I'll give it to you straight up how it is.. It's one way with me, whats real.

Music was different, thus the crowd was differnt.. What they appreciatted then they do not appreciate now.. The average college student during your day do not listen to the same kind of music of the average college student today. That's fact.. H3ll do a survey....:tup:

That cause a huge split in what the crowd will react to.


And no I am not saying we had the exact energy on the field as the bands you were in. But I say you a lie if you going to say we looked like we ain't want to be on the field. The field was fun to us, were we as excited as you all? NO, you would be all that excited to if you had to come off the field dayum near every show to the fight song....lol EVERY SHOW we challenge coming off the field to the fight song.... I believe we were successful a few times.. My crab year when we came off to "Rock N Roll" our first time ever playing it...


Jr. I will go with you on you guys being more amped.. You had more to be amped for... Yall had time to do what ever you guys wanted to do, if you was in the bandroom my years you would know DOC used to cut our shows down atleast 3 time a week until he got his way... And DOC way is as you know it "SAME WAY" if it ain't broke don't fix it.. So in those regards, yes we were a bit less satisfied with what we were doing... Seems like DOC only let loose for the JSU and FAMU game or any game one of his buddy directors called him talking shat...

For you to think WE didn't do a different drill every week in 96 saying you didn't really follow us... I know for a fact we practiced a NEW drill EVERY week. Except for the Classic, that was the only week DOC mixe dshows together....:tup:

Even I posted clips of our band that would prove your statements wrong, you not changing your mind... Difference is I can respect what you guys did, but you can't do the same, that's kinda messed up. But I'll say this, we had a trumpet player for EACH trumpet player you all had.. I firmly believe that, Santa Cruz confirm that about 95 and 96 Trumpet sections... He crabbed 86, and DOC will tell you Santa Cruz is a great representative of what the 80's had as far as trumpets..

Check out 92 trumpet section while you at it... strongest 24 trumpet section I will EVER hear in my life....:tup:

I agree with the 92 trumpet section being strong. Them fellas were hella. I will not argue about going one for one on trumpet players. I can only tell you how we think of it as a entire section from what we heard over the years. Now I would put Terence Parker, Kenneth Carmouche, Kevin Bailey, Philip Paulin who's whole family plays in NO against any of those cats you named. So again we will agree to disagree. I am sure Santa Cruz will give yall your props. I value his opinion. He actually stays across the street from my boy in Houston so I am sure this convo will come up the next time I am in Houston or run into him somewhere. He's a helluva DJ now. LOL.

Actually you read my post entirely wrong. I didn't say you didn't have any quality players. I actually believe you might have had more overall. I bet yall never had a Potato Head player.......ask Cruz about him. LOL. My comment was the combination of the quality players who also had that personality about them. For example Miles Davis was a great trumpet player but he had sort of an introverted personality. Dizzy Gilliespie was great in his own right but was more outgoing. I just think we may have had more Dizzy's than yall. Cats who were like you said amped up. Yeah Doc worked us. But I still think because of the era.
The upperclassmen at that time were different. They could be that way. Alot of the stuff we did that was supposed to SU traditional stuff aint done anymore. I don't mean the stupid stuff like the Mud and that junk. I mean some of the SU band isms. Like Bust It or Repoiture Night lasting till 12 midnight on Friday. I am sure the admin can't mess with that. I know they told Doc to cut practice during the week. I think that night was when we were able to just get royally hyped playing your whole book. Marches and all. That was fun. I heard it was even better in the old band room.

Just look at this way. Michael Jordan, Jerry Rice, Bird, and Magic all come from an era we did. Look at their work ethic and players during that time versus all the talented ones now. These days you have exceptions to the rule like a DWade, Lebron, etc......back then it was the norm. So I think even when we had a subpar player........he was doing the little things right. Where as and not just at SU but across the board. I think we see more talent in some areas, but the overall edge isn't there. Some of those cats you played with may have been talented but ask yourself this. Do you think they would have survived the gauntlet that was SU back then? I will not post any names but we had some cats who are playing professionally now quit the band early on because of the intensity. They were bad arses on their ax but felt like it was too much for their laidback attitudes. That's what we are talking about. Sometimes talent doesn't always mean better. We see that in sports.

BTW, I didn't want to toot my own horn or my boy's horn who played with me on Joe Tex in listing those trumpet players. But I was All-State in Ms and competed in MHSAA Ensemble and Solo and garnered some Superiors. Not to mention the European tour with the All-American Winds Ensemble. So ole JR wasn't too shabby himself for a corp-style trumpet player from Jackson Callaway. My boy Crump who is a Naval Helicopter Pilot was All-State in Ms as well. Both of us just did the band for fun, the Navy was our calling so I can't list anybody who is in music now. Maybe LeShawn Gary who came with Cruz and Celestine in 86. Its all good man. I still think you feel we don't respect yall. We do. We just prefer our era a little more. No harm in that is there?:hat:

 

[JR]

Uh Oh see what I done started up SLT. Who's next. I would say Staggalee but frat is a drummer. They don't give a damn. LOL. I forgot what Bengal E played.

 

[SLT]

Uh Oh I done started up SLT. Who's next. I would say Staggalee but frat is a drummer. They don't give a damn. LOL. I forgot what Bengal E played.

See, that's why I ain't getting started. :lol:

 

[SUtrp96]

I agree with the 92 trumpet section being strong. Them fellas were hella. I will not argue about going one for one on trumpet players. I can only tell you how we think of it as a entire section from what we heard over the years. Now I would put Terence Parker, Kenneth Carmouche, Kevin Bailey, Philip Paulin who's whole family plays in NO against any of those cats you named. So again we will agree to disagree. I am sure Santa Cruz will give yall your props. I value his opinion. He actually stays across the street from my boy in Houston so I am sure this convo will come up the next time I am in Houston or run into him somewhere. He's a helluva DJ now. LOL.

Actually you read my post entirely wrong. I didn't say you didn't have any quality players. I actually believe you might have had more overall. I bet yall never had a Potato Head player.......ask Cruz about him. LOL. My comment was the combination of the quality players who also had that personality about them. For example Miles Davis was a great trumpet player but he had sort of an introverted personality. Dizzy Gilliespie was great in his own right but was more outgoing. I just think we may have had more Dizzy's than yall. Cats who were like you said amped up. Yeah Doc worked us. But I still think because of the era.
The upperclassmen at that time were different. They could be that way. Alot of the stuff we did that was supposed to SU traditional stuff aint done anymore. I don't mean the stupid stuff like the Mud and that junk. I mean some of the SU band isms. Like Bust It or Repoiture Night lasting till 12 midnight on Friday. I am sure the admin can't mess with that. I know they told Doc to cut practice during the week. I think that night was when we were able to just get royally hyped playing your whole book. Marches and all. That was fun. I heard it was even better in the old band room.

Just look at this way. Michael Jordan, Jerry Rice, Bird, and Magic all come from an era we did. Look at their work ethic and players during that time versus all the talented ones now. These days you have exceptions to the rule like a DWade, Lebron, etc......back then it was the norm. So I think even when we had a subpar player........he was doing the little things right. Where as and not just at SU but across the board. I think we see more talent in some areas, but the overall edge isn't there. Some of those cats you played with may have been talented but ask yourself this. Do you think they would have survived the gauntlet that was SU back then? I will not post any names but we had some cats who are playing professionally now quit the band early on because of the intensity. They were bad arses on their ax but felt like it was too much for their laidback attitudes. That's what we are talking about. Sometimes talent doesn't always mean better. We see that in sports.

BTW, I didn't want to toot my own horn or my boy's horn who played with me on Joe Tex in listing those trumpet players. But I was All-State in Ms and competed in MHSAA Ensemble and Solo and garnered some Superiors. Not to mention the European tour with the All-American Winds Ensemble. So ole JR wasn't too shabby himself for a corp-style trumpet player from Jackson Callaway. My boy Crump who is a Naval Helicopter Pilot was All-State in Ms as well. Both of us just did the band for fun, the Navy was our calling so I can't list anybody who is in music now. Maybe LeShawn Gary who came with Cruz and Celestine in 86. Its all good man. I still think you feel we don't respect yall. We do. We just prefer our era a little more. No harm in that is there?:hat:

That's what you getting twisted though... We had a gang of folk on Maynard order... but was also quality players.. even our NOT so good players was MAYNARD, AUTURO kinda players... IGNANT!!!...lol Trust me I know what you are talking about... Bring that convo. up next time you talk to Cruz... Tell him "Jared" from Warren Easton (New Orleans) played stage band with him in 96.... He'll know me...:tup: