North Koreans have missle that can reach United States

[J-State Tiger]

Tenet: North Korea has ballistic missile capable of hitting U.S.
Wednesday, February 12, 2003 Posted: 6:02 PM EST (2302 GMT)



WASHINGTON (CNN) -- North Korea has an untested ballistic missile capable of hitting the United States, top U.S. intelligence officials said Wednesday.

While testifying at a Senate committee hearing in Washington, CIA Director George Tenet was asked whether North Korea had a ballistic missile capable of reaching the U.S. West Coast.

Before answering, Tenet turned to very quickly consult with aides sitting behind him.

"I think the declassified answer, is yes, they can do that," Tenet said.

Defense Intelligence Agency Director Vice Adm. Lowell Jacoby, also testifying at the hearing, said outside the hearing room that the North Korean missile has not yet been flight tested, according to The Associated Press.

Moments earlier Tenet said it was likely that North Korea had been able to produce as many as two plutonium-based nuclear weapons.

The estimate is not new -- it was laid out in an unclassified CIA document in December 2001-- but Tenet is the most senior U.S. official to say so publicly.

The 2001 report said North Korea's Taepo Dong 2 missile may be capable of hitting the West Coast of the United States, as well Alaska and Hawaii.

The revelation came shortly after the United Nations nuclear watchdog agency declared North Korea in breach of international nuclear agreements and sent the issue to the U.N. Security Council.

The International Atomic Energy Agency's 35-nation executive board voted 31-0 to cite Pyongyang for being in breach of U.N. safeguards. Two countries, Russia and Cuba, abstained.

Russia had expressed concern over sending the matter to the Security Council, fearing it could push North Korea into further defiance. Sudan was not allowed to vote because it has not paid its dues, and another nation was not present.

Some officials have said there are moves to create a package for North Korea that would try to achieve a diplomatic solution. But the Security Council also could impose sanctions on Pyongyang in an attempt to persuade the North to drop its nuclear plans.

North Korea has said such a move would amount to a declaration of war.

The decision to send the matter to the Security Council comes at the same time that body has been dealing with weapons inspections in Iraq and whether Baghdad has been in compliance with U.N. Resolution 1441, which calls on Iraq to disarm.

Friday, the two top U.N. weapons inspectors report back to the council on their latest findings within Iraq.

European Union international policy chief Javier Solana -- who spent the last two days in meetings in South Korea -- said earlier Wednesday that now is not the time to impose sanctions on North Korea.

"I don't think this is the moment to do sanctions, and I do think the sanctions may contribute to the opposite that we want to obtain, which is defusing of the crisis," Solana said before the IAEA vote.

During his visit to Seoul, Solana has met with top South Korean officials, including President Kim Dae-jung, President-elect Roh Moo-hyun, the foreign minister and the minister of defense.

Solana also may travel to North Korea in the coming weeks to discuss ways to defuse the nuclear impasse. He said he would base the timing of any mission to Pyongyang on the wishes of North Korea's neighbors.

"All of them have told me 'the sooner, the better,' so we will do it the sooner, the better, Solana said.

Tensions have mounted on the Korean peninsula since last October when the United States said North Korea admitted to secretly pursuing a nuclear weapons program in violation of a 1994 deal.

Pyongyang, which denies the U.S. claim, responded by backing out of a nuclear non-proliferation treaty earlier this year, kicking out U.N. nuclear monitors and restarting a mothballed nuclear power plant in a move it says will compensate for an energy shortfall.
_____________________________________________________________________________

This is totally unacceptable. We need to forget about this fools errand in Iraq, and get our attention focused on some real business. Who has been asleep at the switch? You mean Nuclear boms can fall on Honolulu, Anchorage or Los Angeles, and there aint a dayum thing we can do about it? This suck. Bush needs to do something. he aint impressed me at all. He aint brought Bin Laden to justice, and Bin laden is putting out more tapes than DJ Clue. Al-Queda is running rampant again, and now the Koreans are out of pocket.

:saw:

 

[Taylor-Made'90]

The whole Iraq-thing is geo-political....We're after the OIL, nothing else...... Here we are about to invade Iraq, but we want a 'diplomatic' solution to the North Korean NUCLEAR issue.

Our gov't has some ufcked up logic. There, I said it... And it felt good, too.

GDubya gone ufck around and get us killed....Him, Colin and Condi....

:shame:

 

[KRANKin98]

No our government is just like any other BIG bussiness in this country.Out for monetary gain and wont do anything that might jeopardize it. N.Korea has that " I wish a mofo would" attitude....They wisha mofo named duhbya would come over there talkin bout disarm or get harmed. They'll blow this whole world up including themselves...remember they're ready to die for they're beliefs...not too many Americans can say the same these days.:saw:

 

[ALCORNITE 86]

Never

With over 3 + years on the Korean peninsula, I have no fear of the North Koreans. Some may argue that being in Korea is safer than Kuwait or the Middle East.

 

[Makaho Bedrock]

Re: Never

Originally posted by ALCORNITE 86
With over 3 + years on the Korean peninsula, I have no fear of the North Koreans. Some may argue that being in Korea is safer than Kuwait or the Middle East.

What mofos don't realize is that South Korea has a kick azz military...and with our forces there we would be more than a match for North Korea with their outdated Soviet equipment.

I don't see why people are as concerned about North Korea attemping to develop long range missles...last I checked the former Soviet Union has about 5,000 nuclear missles that can reach us, I know they are no longer a threat, but I remember a time when they were. They feared mutual destruction via retaliation from us, so they didn't use them. If mofos in the middle east ever develop them, they will most definetely use them.

 

[KRANKin98]

true that middle easterners would be quick to use them...but they are at least 20 years away from that technology...their conventional missles can barely reach Africa. N.Korea already has them, who should we worry about first?

 

[ALCORNITE 86]

. N.Korea already has them, who should we worry about first?

I would worry more about Ray-Ray the crack-head and Billy-Bob the Redneck than a malnutritioned N.korean.

Makaho is right on target about the South Korean Army. Their Fowarded Deployed Forces are Rok Hard and do not play.

This is not 1950 and an advance to Busan (formerly called Pusan) is unthinkable. (The damn congestion of vehicles and high-rises will defeat that effort)

The terrorists who do not give a damn about his life and anyone else are the ones who scares me. Saddam has all that crap but he has no intentions of attacking the U.S or anywhere else in the Middle East. This was proven in 1994 when he moved his forces back to the Kuwaiti border and we (US) responded with a Rapid Deployment Force (I was on the next flight out from Hunter Army Airfield when he retreated back to his cubby hole in Bagdad).

We are in some "Hot Mess" that we have to deal with. (Deployment of too many forces not to fight)

 

[unknown]

Seems to me like they're not joking around

=================================

N. Korea Threatens to Abandon Armistice
Mon Feb 17, 7:49 PM ET

By SANG-HUN CHOE, Associated Press Writer

SEOUL, South Korea - North Korea (news - web sites) threatened on Tuesday to abandon the 1953 armistice that ended the Korean War, accusing the United States of plotting an attack on the communist state.



A spokesman of the North's Korean People's Army claimed that the United States was building up reinforcements around the Korean Peninsula in preparations to attack the North, said the North's official news agency KCNA.


"The situation is, therefore, getting more serious as the days go by as it is putting its plan for pre-emptive attacks on the (North) into practice," KCNA quoted the unidentified spokesman as saying.


The 1950-53 Korean War ended with an armistice, not a peace treaty, leaving the countries technically in a state of war. A North Korean withdrawal from the armistice would remove the main mechanism that is helping to keep an uneasy peace on the peninsula, where the border between the two Koreas is the world's most heavily armed.


The announcement is the latest move in a crisis over the North's recent decision to restart its nuclear programs in violations of international treaties.


Washington and its allies are pressuring North Korea to abandon its suspected nuclear weapon programs. The North has insisted on direct talks first with the United States, from which it wants a nonaggression treaty.


The North threat followed by a day a declaration by the communist state that it would triumph in the nuclear standoff.


That bluster came as South Korea (news - web sites)'s outgoing president, Kim Dae-jung (news - web sites), warned that Pyongyang's production of atomic weapons could force his country and Japan to build nuclear bombs as well. as South Korea warned that Pyongyang's production of atomic weapons could force the South and Japan to build nuclear bombs as well.


Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld has said that North Korea has one or two nuclear weapons and could extract enough plutonium within months to make six to eight more. North Korea had never admitted or denied having nuclear weapons, but has said it has the right to develop nuclear weapons.


The spokesman said the "grave situation created by the undisguised war acts committed by the U.S. in breach of the armistice agreement compels the Korean People's Army side, its warring party, to immediately take all steps to cope with it."


"If the U.S. side continues violating and misusing the armistice agreement as it pleases, there will be no need for the (North) to remain bound to the armistice agreement uncomfortably," the spokesman said.


The North Korean statement, which was carried by KCNA on Tuesday was issued Monday by the spokesman of the North Korean military's mission to Panmunjom, a truce village where the U.S.-led U.N. Command and the North Korean military meet to oversee the armistice.


The North accused the United States of violating the armistice agreement by sending reinforcements around the Korean Peninsula and planning to impose a naval blockade against the impoverished, communist state.


North Korea had previously threatened to pull out of the armistice in an attempt to increase tension with the United States and force Washington to start negotiations with the Stalinist regime in Pyongyang.

 

[unknown]

....But they don't seem to be in Iraq. Not only is N. Korea sending weapons of mass destruction to other countries, they are also receiving them as well. The reason why UN inspectors can't find chemicals and WMD in Iraq is because they are all in N. Korea. I think they're looking in the wrong place.


Ship gets arms in and out
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


The North Korean ship that last year delivered Scud missiles to Yemen transferred a large shipment of chemical weapons material from Germany to North Korea recently, U.S. intelligence officials said. Top Stories


The ship, the Sosan, was monitored as it arrived in North Korea earlier this month carrying a shipment of sodium cyanide, a precursor chemical used in making nerve gas, said officials familiar with intelligence reports.

The same ship was stopped by U.S. and Spanish naval vessels Dec. 9 as it neared Yemen. It was carrying 15 Scud missiles and warheads. After a brief delay and assurances from the Yemeni government, the ship was allowed to proceed to Yemen with the missile shipment.

After unloading the missiles in Yemen, the Sosan then traveled to Germany, where it took on a cargo of sodium cyanide estimated to weigh several tons. The ship then was tracked as it traveled to North Korea. It arrived at the west coast seaport of Nampo on Thursday, the officials said.

Disclosure of the chemical shipment comes amid heightened tensions between the United States and North Korea over Pyongyang's nuclear activities. The North Koreans were found to have violated a 1994 agreement to freeze plutonium production and other agreements prohibiting it from making nuclear arms.

The Bush administration is planning in the coming months to impose sanctions aimed at halting weapons shipments to North Korea and cutting off funds sent to the communist state by Korean residents in Japan, said an administration official. The plans were first reported yesterday by the New York Times.

North Korea's official media have said that any sanctions imposed on the country would be tantamount to a declaration of war. Translation !itch don't fvck with my money!

The official Korean Central News Agency confirmed that the Sosan arrived at Nampo on Thursday.

At a press conference, the captain and crew answered questions for reporters and said that the Dec. 9 incident was an act of U.S. piracy.

The Sosan's captain, Kang Cholryong, told the news agency that the crew, not wanting to surrender their cargo to the United States, tried to set the ship on fire and sink it but were stopped by U.S. commandos who boarded from helicopters.

"The United States should be fully responsible for this piratical act and make a formal apology and due compensation to the [North Korean] government for it," the KCNA report stated.

The action against the ship was "part of the premeditated and brigandish moves of the U.S. imperialists to isolate and stifle [North Korea] and dominate the world with their policy of strength," it stated.

Sodium cyanide is a dual-use chemical. It is used to make the nerve gas sarin, as well as commercial products including pesticides and plastics.

The chemical is controlled by the 34-nation Australia Group, a voluntary coalition of states that agree to curb exports of dual-use chemicals that can boost the chemical weapons programs of states like North Korea. Germany is a member of the group.

A German Embassy spokesman could not be reached for comment.

South Korea's defense ministry stated last year that North Korea has a stockpile of between 2,500 and 5,000 tons of chemical weapons, including 17 different types of agents.

The ministry stated in a report made public in September that North Korea can produce 4,500 tons of chemical weapons agents annually. It also can produce a ton of biological weapons agent a year.

Sodium cyanide is an ingredient of the deadly nerve agent sarin, a small amount of which can kill a human.

The intercept of the Sosan near Yemen in December highlighted divisions within the Bush administration over how to act in curbing the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and missile-delivery systems, U.S. officials said.

White House National Security Council officials supported seizing the missiles, but State Department officials opposed the idea, saying it would damage relations with Yemen, a growing ally in the war against terrorism.

The Sosan was seized after Yemen's government at first denied the missiles were theirs. The denial led U.S. intelligence officials to suspect the missiles could be headed for another country, such as Iraq, and they were seized.

The ship was stopped after a Spanish warship fired warning shots at the vessel. It then was boarded by U.S. commandos who discovered the missiles, warheads and canisters of chemical used for the missile's solid rocket fuel.

The Yemeni government then acknowledged the missiles had been purchased legally by the San'a government.

Bush administration officials have described North Korea as a major supplier of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons know-how and missile-delivery systems.

Richard Armitage, deputy secretary of state, told Congress earlier this month that North Korea's nuclear and other programs relating to weapons of mass destruction are threats to the United States.

"North Korea's programs to develop weapons of mass destruction and their means of delivery ... are also a threat to the international community, regional security, U.S. interests and U.S. forces, which remain an integral part of stability in the region," Mr. Armitage said.

"It is time for North Korea to turn away from this self-destructive course. They have nothing to gain from acquiring nuclear weapons ? and much to lose. Indeed, every day, the people of that country are paying a terrible price for these programs in international isolation and misspent national resources."

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030218-330306.htm


==================================

"The Sosan was seized after Yemen's government at first denied the missiles were theirs. The denial led U.S. intelligence officials to suspect the missiles could be headed for another country, such as Iraq, and they were seized."

So you mean to tell me, NK could possibly be supplying Iraq with the WMD's that the US is looking for...and Bush knew about this ahead of time and did nothing about it? I guess it's because they're not terrorists.

 

[Bartram]

I wish they would strike.

Maybe then spoiled Americans becoming more and more like pre-WWII Britain and France would realize that you need to maintain and use "the big stick" sometimes.

 

[ALCORNITE 86]

Okay

You wish that N.korea would strike the South and kill more than 37000 U.S soldiers and another 5,000 more or less U.S Citizens trying to make a living?

Tell me you are joking or something. Dude, the **** is real, however, the 37000 Americans Soldiers over here protecting the freedom of a country that has been invaded over 500 times in its 900 year history do not feel that way. Yes, there are a handful of misguided souls who think that the U.S should pull out and you have numerous South Koreans who witness the murderous N.koreans and Chinese who invaded this Country 50 years ago that think otherwise.


France has not done a damn thing in its entire existence. I guess the U. S should of stayed out of World War I and II and allowed the Axis to continue to dominate France like the little *****es they are.

 

[Bartram]

i'm being facecious but,,

It's seems to be the only way that citizens in the US will wake up, is when we get punched in the mouth. We were awake for a few minutes after 911,, but now it seems like that was 50 years ago!

 

[J C]

The North Korean situation is dangerous. It poses more of a threat to Japan than any other nation. I believe we will see the Japanese re-arm in the future because of this threat. I am not sure this is in anybody's interest. This would create a very unstable Asia (pre-WWII-China/Korea vs Japan). Alcornite 86 the only way we can prevent the North Koreans from over running the South is if we use theater nukes. If that occurs, the world loses.

 

[Bartram]

I don't understand NK.

Why did these fools have to act a fool NOW?! And why they gotta fire missiles & such? Yeah,,, if Japan re-arms,,, das dey a$$ and maybe ours too. Then again,, if they spend some of all that money on defense and less on gadgets maybe we can get some of our companies back.

 

[J C]

The new Bush doctrine of "pre-emptiveness" could be the reason the North Koreans are rattling their sabers. Remember the "Axis of Evil" comment. It appears to the rest of the world that the only thing that will prohibit a preempt strike from the U.S. is to have weapons of mass destruction (Nuclear). Iraq will be a cake walk. North Korea is another matter, where the MAD concept is at play.That's why we are going to negotiate with the Koreans and kick the Iraqi Sunni asses. I disagree with the new policy and predict it will lead to world chaos. We are kiving in dangerous times.

 

[ALCORNITE 86]

YES, YES

N.korea fired a missle into the yellow sea yesterday letting Colin Powell know that they are not playing

 

[unknown]

SEOUL, South Korea (March 2) - North Korea warned Sunday of "nuclear disasters'' around the world if Washington attacks the communist state, while its civilian leaders urged greater cooperation between Pyongyang and Seoul to ease the crisis on the Korean Peninsula.

The North's official Rodong Sinmun newspaper accused the Central Intelligence Agency of preparing a surprise attack on the nation's nuclear facilities that are suspected of being used to make atomic bombs.

"If the U.S. imperialists ignite a war on the Korean Peninsula, the war will turn into a nuclear war,'' Rodong said. "As a consequence, the Koreans in the north and south and the people in Asia and the rest of the world will suffer horrifying nuclear disasters.''

The report, carried by the North's state-run KCNA news agency, claimed that Washington put its forces around the peninsula on "semi-war footing'' and "is pushing ahead with nuclear war preparations in full swing.''

Pyongyang accuses Washington of inciting the nuclear standoff as a pretext for an invasion. Washington has repeatedly said it has no plans to attack North Korea, but stresses that "all options are on the table.''

In Seoul on Sunday, North Korea's religious and civic leaders took part in inter-Korean religious masses and urged greater cooperation between the two Koreas.

"Preventing war through national cooperation is the most urgent task of the nation,'' said Ri Mun Hwan, a senior North Korean delegate. "If war breaks out, the South cannot be safe and the entire nation will face disaster.''

Another delegate, Oh Kyung Woo, said the "United States is threatening a nuclear war, but if war breaks out both South and North will incur damages,'' according to South Korea's national Yonhap news agency.

"Foreign forces will never give us reunification. We must cooperate with each other,'' Oh was quoted as saying.

The comments were made during religious masses at a cathedral, a church, a Buddhist temple and other religious locations, which were attended by thousands of South Koreans.

The ceremonies were a part of an inter-Korean festival to mark the anniversary of a major independence uprising against Japanese colonial rule on March 1, 1919.

Pyongyang sent 105 delegates to Seoul on Saturday for the three-day festival. Both Koreas mark the uprising as a major holiday. Japan ruled the peninsula from 1910 to 1945.

Rodong, monitored by South Korea's national Yonhap news agency, reiterated that the North's nuclear activities were "strictly for peaceful purposes and poses no threat to anyone.''

"Crushing the U.S. plot to attack North Korea is a very important issue related to peace and safety of Asia and the world, the existence and future of mankind,'' Rodong said.

Raising tensions last week, North Korea test-fired a missile into the sea off its east coast. Pyongyang also reactivated a 5-megawatt reactor that could produce plutonium for nuclear weapons, U.S. and South Korean officials said.

On Saturday, North Korea said nuclear war could break out on the peninsula at "any moment,'' after South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun warned of a "calamity'' unless the standoff is resolved peacefully and quickly.

The dispute flared in October when Washington said North Korea had admitted pursuing a nuclear program, which violated a 1994 pact.

Washington and its allies cut off oil shipments to the impoverished communist state. The North responded by saying it would reactivate its frozen facilities. It also expelled U.N. monitors and withdrew from the global Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

03/02/03 18:56 EST

 

[Bartram]

Are you happy Unkown1?

Originally posted by unknown1
SEOUL, South Korea (March 2) - North Korea warned Sunday of "nuclear disasters'' around the world if Washington attacks the communist state, while its civilian leaders urged greater cooperation between Pyongyang and Seoul to ease the crisis on the Korean Peninsula.

03/02/03 18:56 EST

So are you up-beat about these developments Unknown1? Would you welcome and help the NK drop a bomb on the U.S.?

 

[unknown]

What the hell are you talking about? I'm the one that said we should be more concerned about NK than we should be about Iraq. You need to think about the stupid comments you make before you post them on here. If I didnt know any better, i'd say you were #1 Bear Booster on the meacfans page.

 

[Bartram]

Wooooooooo!!!!

Originally posted by unknown1
What the hell are you talking about? I'm the one that said we should be more concerned about NK than we should be about Iraq. You need to think about the stupid comments you make before you post them on here. If I didnt know any better, i'd say you were #1 Bear Booster on the meacfans page.

First of all, not to defend Bush/reps here,,, but if Bush had the U.S. military poised to bust a$$ in NKorea,, YOU, sir,,, WOULD STILL HAVE FOUND SOME REASON TO BE PROTESTING AND BELLY-ACHING, so don't give me all that "I said we should be more concerned with NKorea" bull crap son!!!!!

 

[unknown]

Just stop posting. Your childish and non-credible posts are making you look more and more stupid by the minute. Try taking some of those extra commas in your post and put em on your fingers before you type babble.

 

[Bartram]

oh brother.

Originally posted by unknown1
Just stop posting. Your childish and non-credible posts are making you look more and more stupid by the minute. Try taking some of those extra commas in your post and put em on your fingers before you type babble.

oh shut da heel up and stop replying when I post you communist/marxist moron.

 

[Bartram]

MEACFan page Bear?

I'm not Brown Bear or whoever you say on the MEACfan page. I'm "Bart".

 

[unknown]

I'll reply to you when you can conjugate a simple sentence. One would think with 2 college degrees you could at least do that.

===================================


Looks like NK is stepping up their security....

====================================

N.Korean MiGs Intercept U.S. Air Force Plane

By Charles Aldinger

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Four North Korean fighter jets intercepted a U.S. Air Force reconnaissance plane in international airspace over the Sea of Japan on Sunday and came within 50 feet of the big American jet while shadowing it, the Pentagon said on Monday.

Two advanced MiG-29 fighters and two others believed to be MiG-23s intercepted the sophisticated four-engine RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft 150 miles off the coast of North Korea (news - web sites) and shadowed the American jet for about 20 minutes, said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Jeff Davis, a Pentagon spokesman.


"The closest point they came was within 50 feet" of the RC-135, he said, adding the Air Force plane was on a routine reconnaissance mission at the time.


Senior U.S. officials said Washington would formally protest the incident, once the best means for such a move had been determined. North Korea and the United States do not have diplomatic relations.


"This will be formally protested. This is particularly provocative and has the potential to frighten our allies even more than previous provocations," said a senior Bush administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity.


Another official said the United States was in "close consultation" with South Korea (news - web sites) and other allies about the incident and how to lodge a protest.


Pentagon spokesman Davis initially said one of the North Korean jets, which were armed, had locked on to the RC-135 with its fire-control radar, but later said that was not certain and the Defense Department was checking tapes of the incident.


He said the jet had used its "acquisition radar" on the RC-135, but the Pentagon was not sure the more threatening radar used to direct missiles had been turned on.


Davis said he had no indication that U.S. fighter jets were called to protect the reconnaissance plane before it returned to its home base at Kadena Air Base in Japan.


The incident came as tension continued to rise on the Korean peninsula over the North's suspected nuclear arms ambitions, and as the United States builds up military forces in the Gulf in preparation for a possible invasion of Iraq (news - web sites).


A North Korean fighter jet also flew briefly into South Korean airspace last week.


SPY FLIGHTS


North Korea on Saturday accused the United States of stepping up spy flights as a preparation for war as South Korea's new president vowed to work for a swift, peaceful end to the nuclear crisis on the peninsula.


Pyongyang had earlier complained that a U.S. RC-135 aircraft had been flying repeated sorties inside its airspace.


The interception incident occurred on Sunday Korean time and at about 8:48 p.m. EST on Saturday, said Davis.


He told reporters it was the first known such interception incident involving North Korean and U.S. aircraft since North Korean jets shot down an American reconnaissance plane in international airspace in 1969, killing 31 people aboard.


The RC-135 is an updated spy version of the venerable old Boeing Co. 707 commercial jet and is packed with sophisticated electronic gear. Known by the Pentagon as "Rivet Joint," the aircraft is capable of tracking troop and other military movements on the ground hundreds of miles away.


Tension over North Korea's suspected nuclear weapons plans rose recently after Washington, citing satellite photographs, said North Korean scientists had fired up a reactor mothballed since 1994 at the Yongbyon complex north of Pyongyang.

 

[Bartram]

GO AWAY.

It's obvious we don't agree on $hit, so why da fug bother you moron? please go away,, and take your stupid, un-informed, marxist-arse takes with you. :tdown: