Episcopalians
- Thread starter JagBR
- Start date
I think it is a sad day in any religion that would allow this to happen. I'm no gay basher, and I don't have anything against gays, or lesbians, but to knowingly allow an admitted sinner to be a bishop, hell, even have him as a pastor in their church is beyond me.
I know none of us are perfect, and we all fall short of the glory of God, but to have someone that's going to continue living a sinful lifestyle, and be in charge of church.......
Who's next? Hitmen, prostitutes, drug dealers? This is as shameful as Bishop Magic Don Juan claiming to be an ordained minister, and actually preaching, but still running around gloryfying the pimpin' game.
NICE:bawling:
I know none of us are perfect, and we all fall short of the glory of God, but to have someone that's going to continue living a sinful lifestyle, and be in charge of church.......
Who's next? Hitmen, prostitutes, drug dealers? This is as shameful as Bishop Magic Don Juan claiming to be an ordained minister, and actually preaching, but still running around gloryfying the pimpin' game.
NICE:bawling:
kbSU89
New Member
A friend of mine and myself were just speaking of this at church yesterday. We that call ourselves Chrisitians have really let Satan take over. Somewhere down the line we have let the ball drop and Satan is running fast and furious to break us down. If the head person allows this, he should step down and let someone else lead.
I have no issues with gays, etc.., but when you let them "lead" the flock where will he lead them.
There is no in-between issues on this. Right is right and Wrong is Wrong
I pray that all Christians, God fearing people get together and break down this stronghold. It is already is schools, jobs, homes,etc. and it has made it's way to the Church.
docmump
The Arch Nemesis
I agree with most of what Nice posted. The only problem I have is the whose next paragraph. As you posted, we all have sinned and there are ex-hitmen, prostitues, and drug dealers who has moved on to confess Christ and is spreading the word of God.
But what I believe you are post is you have never heard of a case where an active hitman, prostitue, or drug dealer deliever the word of God. Am I correct?
I dont have a problem with a homosexual being a bishop. I just like I dont have a problem with a theif, prostitue, drug dealer, murderer, or a fornicator. But what I do have a problem with is an active theif, prostitue, drug dealer, murderer, or a fornicator being a Bishop.
docmump, that's what I'm talking about, and I mean by those who are actively/currently doing these things. I know people in life make mistakes, and by the glory of God, we can repent, and be redeemed of our sins.
My problem is that this guy is openly, and actively gay, and hasn't mentioned that he was changing his lifestyle, and what's so disturbing to me is, he knows he's wrong, and still he teaches others to do right.
I know pastors, ministers, and the like, have stolen from the church, have commited adultery with members, and they have been dealt with, and most have had the common decency to apologize to their churches and other Christians, once their indescretions are made known, and vow to work on their issues.
This guy is putting his sinful lifestyle on the church, and in essence is chosing his lifestyle over the ministry, and that's where my problems lie.
To piggy back on what I spoke about earlier. I know mistakes are made, and while those mistakes are being paid for, by either prison time, or guilt, some recieve their calling, and most of them are some of the best messengers you will hear.
Again, none of us are perfect, and we all fall short, but in this case it's just flat out wrong. IMO
NICE
My problem is that this guy is openly, and actively gay, and hasn't mentioned that he was changing his lifestyle, and what's so disturbing to me is, he knows he's wrong, and still he teaches others to do right.
I know pastors, ministers, and the like, have stolen from the church, have commited adultery with members, and they have been dealt with, and most have had the common decency to apologize to their churches and other Christians, once their indescretions are made known, and vow to work on their issues.
This guy is putting his sinful lifestyle on the church, and in essence is chosing his lifestyle over the ministry, and that's where my problems lie.
To piggy back on what I spoke about earlier. I know mistakes are made, and while those mistakes are being paid for, by either prison time, or guilt, some recieve their calling, and most of them are some of the best messengers you will hear.
Again, none of us are perfect, and we all fall short, but in this case it's just flat out wrong. IMO
NICE
MsJag4Jag
Moderator
So which is better...
To be an active _____________ and still spread the word...
OR
Be an active _________________ and ignore the Word altogether...
OR
Be an active ___________________ who is just a parishioner and nobody knows about your activity...
??????
Basically, we shouldn't go to any church because EVERY pastor/bishop/priest sins EVERYDAY. We all do... We sin by commission or omission....either doing something we knew we should not have done ...or not doing something that we SHOULD have done....Come on let's face it... All of us do something wrong every day...
To be an active _____________ and still spread the word...
OR
Be an active _________________ and ignore the Word altogether...
OR
Be an active ___________________ who is just a parishioner and nobody knows about your activity...
??????
Basically, we shouldn't go to any church because EVERY pastor/bishop/priest sins EVERYDAY. We all do... We sin by commission or omission....either doing something we knew we should not have done ...or not doing something that we SHOULD have done....Come on let's face it... All of us do something wrong every day...
J4J, I recognize we all sin everyday, that's why I said WE ALL fall short, but as the head of the church there has to be some sort order, and a gay pastor just doesn't signify that order.
Granted I don't go to church as much as I should, so I'm not trying to come off as some holier than thou Christian, but I do know what I can support, and what I can't.
I would assume that we're all their (in church) trying to become better people, and be as Christlike as we possibly can, but how can you follow the teachings of someone who openly sins, and will not change (at least haven't made a decree to do so)?
I don't have a problem with homosexuals even being in church, because in my eyes, their sins are no different than any others in the church, and again, I would assume that they're in there trying to become better, and work on what it is they know in their heart, or hearts is wrong. Just like the whore, whoremungger, theif, drunk, drug addict, murderer, rapist, adulterer, gambler...........
I applaud his honestly, because that is the best policy, but at the same time, I'm not going up to that front pew after service, and give the first dude of the church, a hug, or kiss either.
NICE
Granted I don't go to church as much as I should, so I'm not trying to come off as some holier than thou Christian, but I do know what I can support, and what I can't.
I would assume that we're all their (in church) trying to become better people, and be as Christlike as we possibly can, but how can you follow the teachings of someone who openly sins, and will not change (at least haven't made a decree to do so)?
I don't have a problem with homosexuals even being in church, because in my eyes, their sins are no different than any others in the church, and again, I would assume that they're in there trying to become better, and work on what it is they know in their heart, or hearts is wrong. Just like the whore, whoremungger, theif, drunk, drug addict, murderer, rapist, adulterer, gambler...........
I applaud his honestly, because that is the best policy, but at the same time, I'm not going up to that front pew after service, and give the first dude of the church, a hug, or kiss either.
NICE
cat daddy
Active Member
Can I co-sign here.
It appears he won't make it. The skeletons are coming from the closet.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20030804_1057.html
JSTUS
THE WARHORSES!!!
The best thing to do is the right thing. The right thing to do should be the only thing that is done. Be a reader, knower, and doer of God's Word. Anything to the contrary is sin, whether you also spread the word or not. You can spread the Word all day and night. However, if you aren't a doer too, then you are going to HELL.
Help us Lord.
Warndalyn
Postmaster General!!!
Episcopalians delay vote to confirm gay bishop
08/04/2003
By JEFFREY WEISS / The Dallas Morning News
MINNEAPOLIS - The vote to confirm what would be the first openly gay Episcopal bishop was derailed Monday by accusations that the Rev. Gene Robinson had engaged in immoral activity.
The first allegation is that a Web site of an organization he co-founded about ten years ago is linked to pornography. The second was contained in an e-mail sent to all the Episcopal bishops that alleged he was guilty of unspecified "inappropriate" touching of a man at a meeting a couple of years ago.
AP
Rev. V. Gene Robinson
The presiding bishop of the 2.3 million-member Episcopal Church, Frank Griswold, was expected to make a statement later Monday.
The church will investigate both accusations before any vote on whether Father Robinson could become a bishop in New Hampshire. Bishop Gordon Scruton of Massachusetts will oversee the investigation. The official statement said that Father Robinson was among those who asked for the investigation.
Church officials did not say how long they thought the investigation would take. A call Monday afternoon to the phone number on the e-mail containing the allegation was answered by an answering machine.
Robinson needs approval from delegates to the church's General Convention to become bishop of the Diocese of New Hampshire. His candidacy drew intense opposition from conservatives, who said they would consider breaking away from the church if he was confirmed.
Robinson, a 56-year-old divorced father of two, has been attending the convention with his daughter and partner of 13 years, Mark Andrew.
The American Anglican Council, which represents conservative bishops and parishes, plans a meeting in October to decide whether to break away from the church or take some other action if Robinson is seated.
Like-minded bishops in the Anglican Communion, the 77-million-member global association that includes the Episcopal Church, said they, too, will consider severing ties with the denomination if Robinson wins.
"If this is approved, it takes the Episcopal Church out of the Anglican Communion," Canon David Anderson, the council president, said before the bishops' scheduled vote. "We are not wanting to threaten anyone. We are wanting to say, clearly, 'Iceberg ahead."'
08/04/2003
By JEFFREY WEISS / The Dallas Morning News
MINNEAPOLIS - The vote to confirm what would be the first openly gay Episcopal bishop was derailed Monday by accusations that the Rev. Gene Robinson had engaged in immoral activity.
The first allegation is that a Web site of an organization he co-founded about ten years ago is linked to pornography. The second was contained in an e-mail sent to all the Episcopal bishops that alleged he was guilty of unspecified "inappropriate" touching of a man at a meeting a couple of years ago.
AP
Rev. V. Gene Robinson
The presiding bishop of the 2.3 million-member Episcopal Church, Frank Griswold, was expected to make a statement later Monday.
The church will investigate both accusations before any vote on whether Father Robinson could become a bishop in New Hampshire. Bishop Gordon Scruton of Massachusetts will oversee the investigation. The official statement said that Father Robinson was among those who asked for the investigation.
Church officials did not say how long they thought the investigation would take. A call Monday afternoon to the phone number on the e-mail containing the allegation was answered by an answering machine.
Robinson needs approval from delegates to the church's General Convention to become bishop of the Diocese of New Hampshire. His candidacy drew intense opposition from conservatives, who said they would consider breaking away from the church if he was confirmed.
Robinson, a 56-year-old divorced father of two, has been attending the convention with his daughter and partner of 13 years, Mark Andrew.
The American Anglican Council, which represents conservative bishops and parishes, plans a meeting in October to decide whether to break away from the church or take some other action if Robinson is seated.
Like-minded bishops in the Anglican Communion, the 77-million-member global association that includes the Episcopal Church, said they, too, will consider severing ties with the denomination if Robinson wins.
"If this is approved, it takes the Episcopal Church out of the Anglican Communion," Canon David Anderson, the council president, said before the bishops' scheduled vote. "We are not wanting to threaten anyone. We are wanting to say, clearly, 'Iceberg ahead."'
sophandros
Free Thinker
I don't know...maybe to a tolerant and decent society?
He is catering to a congregation that will think that they can stay in their sins and it will be alright. They can point to their supposed leader and feel justified in their actions because he feels justified in his. But this is just a case of the blind leading the blind. (Matt 15: 10-14) There is no way that this man can deliver the light because he is living in darkness and his eyes have been darkened. Also, you will know what kind of congregation he will have, because an apple tree cannot bear oranges. Meaning an unrighteous minister cannot bear fruit that are righteous disciples. Plus this is just prophecy coming to pass.
sophandros
Free Thinker
So you won't go along with a tolerant society in which everyone can live with dignity?
Ah, the sweet sounds of bigotry.
Dr. Sweet NUPE
New Member
I am one of the people on here who speak for people with different lifestyles but this is something I cannot support. Yet, but sticking with my own words, no sin in larger than any other. At least this Bishop is honest.
Dr. Sweet NUPE
New Member
Episcopalians Approve Gay Bishop
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/05/bishop/index.html
MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota (CNN) -- The House of Bishops voted Tuesday evening to confirm the Rev. Gene Robinson as bishop of New Hampshire, making him the first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church's history.
Robinson needed a simple majority of the 107 votes to be confirmed. He received 62.
Church spokesman Daniel England called the approval "an important step for the church."
"Some will be elated at this news, others very disappointed. And yet the decorum and the civility throughout leads me to believe that things will hold together," England said.
In comments after the vote, Bishop Robert Duncan of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, spoke for those opposed to Robinson's approval, saying they were "filled with sorrow" and feel a "grief too deep for words."
"This body has denied the plain teaching of Scripture and the moral consensus of the church throughout the ages," Duncan said. "This body has divided itself from millions of Anglican Christians throughout the world."
Duncan said the bishops in opposition will be calling upon Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and upon the primates of the Worldwide Anglican Communion, of which the Episcopal Church of the USA is a part, to intervene in the decision.
Although the national Anglican churches are independent, the archbishop of Canterbury is accorded special honor as head of the original Anglican body, the Church of England.
"May God have mercy on his church," Duncan concluded.
Opponents of Robinson's appointment warned that the appointment of an openly gay man could split the 2.3-million-member U.S. church and distance it from the Worldwide Anglican Communion, which numbers 73 million members.
The Rev. Susan Russell of the gay Episcopal group Claiming the Blessing, said she believes the church is strong enough to survive the debate.
"Yes, there's a lot of fear, but I happen to believe the love of God can overcome that," Russell told CNN. "What we really need to do is hang together as we have in this convention through this difficult time, and find a way through this."
The diocese of New Hampshire elected Robinson as bishop in June, but his election had to be confirmed at the Episcopal Church's General Convention.
The vote by the House of Bishops and a previous vote by the House of Deputies was too close to be definitive, said the Rev. Kendall Harmon, canon theologian for the Diocese of South Carolina. He said the approval had only a nine-vote margin.
Robinson won the vote by the House of Deputies, made up of more than 800 priests and lay leaders, Sunday.
Some Episcopal leaders who have opposed ratifying Robinson said that if he won Tuesday's vote, they would walk out of the church's meeting in Minneapolis and go across the street to a Lutheran church for a prayer service.
Tuesday's final vote follows weeks of heated debate, several days of a contentious conference and a one-day investigation that cleared Robinson of wrongdoing related to two 11th-hour allegations. (More on allegations)
David Lewis of Vermont accused Robinson of touching him inappropriately at a convocation and an activist opposed to Robinson's candidacy told bishops an organization Robinson was connected to offered a link on its Web site that could lead to erotica.
Investigators questioned Lewis and determined Robinson touched his arm and back momentarily during conversation in a public room with more than 300 people present.
On the second allegation, involving a Web site brought to bishops' attention by a member of the American Anglican Council, which opposes Robinson's ratification, Bishop Gordon Scruton, who oversaw the investigation, said Robinson helped found a chapter of the organization Outright in 1995, and ended his involvement with the group in 1998.
In 2002, the group established a Web site that linked to another site, which in turn linked to a site that included what Scruton called "graphic sexual materials."
Robinson "was not aware that the organization has a Web site until this convention," Scruton said, noting that Outright's response to investigators "emphasized to me" that Robinson had no part in the creation of the Web site.
Outright was founded to provide support and counseling for young people concerned about their sexuality, Scruton said.
The Episcopalian annual General Convention being held in Minneapolis, Minnesota, is scheduled to end Friday.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/05/bishop/index.html
MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota (CNN) -- The House of Bishops voted Tuesday evening to confirm the Rev. Gene Robinson as bishop of New Hampshire, making him the first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church's history.
Robinson needed a simple majority of the 107 votes to be confirmed. He received 62.
Church spokesman Daniel England called the approval "an important step for the church."
"Some will be elated at this news, others very disappointed. And yet the decorum and the civility throughout leads me to believe that things will hold together," England said.
In comments after the vote, Bishop Robert Duncan of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, spoke for those opposed to Robinson's approval, saying they were "filled with sorrow" and feel a "grief too deep for words."
"This body has denied the plain teaching of Scripture and the moral consensus of the church throughout the ages," Duncan said. "This body has divided itself from millions of Anglican Christians throughout the world."
Duncan said the bishops in opposition will be calling upon Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and upon the primates of the Worldwide Anglican Communion, of which the Episcopal Church of the USA is a part, to intervene in the decision.
Although the national Anglican churches are independent, the archbishop of Canterbury is accorded special honor as head of the original Anglican body, the Church of England.
"May God have mercy on his church," Duncan concluded.
Opponents of Robinson's appointment warned that the appointment of an openly gay man could split the 2.3-million-member U.S. church and distance it from the Worldwide Anglican Communion, which numbers 73 million members.
The Rev. Susan Russell of the gay Episcopal group Claiming the Blessing, said she believes the church is strong enough to survive the debate.
"Yes, there's a lot of fear, but I happen to believe the love of God can overcome that," Russell told CNN. "What we really need to do is hang together as we have in this convention through this difficult time, and find a way through this."
The diocese of New Hampshire elected Robinson as bishop in June, but his election had to be confirmed at the Episcopal Church's General Convention.
The vote by the House of Bishops and a previous vote by the House of Deputies was too close to be definitive, said the Rev. Kendall Harmon, canon theologian for the Diocese of South Carolina. He said the approval had only a nine-vote margin.
Robinson won the vote by the House of Deputies, made up of more than 800 priests and lay leaders, Sunday.
Some Episcopal leaders who have opposed ratifying Robinson said that if he won Tuesday's vote, they would walk out of the church's meeting in Minneapolis and go across the street to a Lutheran church for a prayer service.
Tuesday's final vote follows weeks of heated debate, several days of a contentious conference and a one-day investigation that cleared Robinson of wrongdoing related to two 11th-hour allegations. (More on allegations)
David Lewis of Vermont accused Robinson of touching him inappropriately at a convocation and an activist opposed to Robinson's candidacy told bishops an organization Robinson was connected to offered a link on its Web site that could lead to erotica.
Investigators questioned Lewis and determined Robinson touched his arm and back momentarily during conversation in a public room with more than 300 people present.
On the second allegation, involving a Web site brought to bishops' attention by a member of the American Anglican Council, which opposes Robinson's ratification, Bishop Gordon Scruton, who oversaw the investigation, said Robinson helped found a chapter of the organization Outright in 1995, and ended his involvement with the group in 1998.
In 2002, the group established a Web site that linked to another site, which in turn linked to a site that included what Scruton called "graphic sexual materials."
Robinson "was not aware that the organization has a Web site until this convention," Scruton said, noting that Outright's response to investigators "emphasized to me" that Robinson had no part in the creation of the Web site.
Outright was founded to provide support and counseling for young people concerned about their sexuality, Scruton said.
The Episcopalian annual General Convention being held in Minneapolis, Minnesota, is scheduled to end Friday.
Dr. Mac
Player
Bad decision.
Sure others have sinned in leadership positions, but they never endorse their actions as being o.k. in God's sight. This is effectively what this bishop is doing, and by his actions, he's having his will supercede God's will. For me its black and white; either one accepts the Bible as the Word of God or you don't. And the bible is clear on homosexuality.
If one is leading a congregation "do as I say (if that's the case here) and not as I do" causes confusion. If a child molester says its wrong to molest children but bring yours to my daycare anyway, I would have no part of it. I see this as being similar in vein. One leads by word and by deed.
And yes, the church I attend has acted on stepping down ministers who have shacked up, committed adultrous acts, etc. from its pulpit. "Stepping them down" from their ministerial duties and responsibilities, not ex-communicating them from the church.
Regards.
Sure others have sinned in leadership positions, but they never endorse their actions as being o.k. in God's sight. This is effectively what this bishop is doing, and by his actions, he's having his will supercede God's will. For me its black and white; either one accepts the Bible as the Word of God or you don't. And the bible is clear on homosexuality.
If one is leading a congregation "do as I say (if that's the case here) and not as I do" causes confusion. If a child molester says its wrong to molest children but bring yours to my daycare anyway, I would have no part of it. I see this as being similar in vein. One leads by word and by deed.
And yes, the church I attend has acted on stepping down ministers who have shacked up, committed adultrous acts, etc. from its pulpit. "Stepping them down" from their ministerial duties and responsibilities, not ex-communicating them from the church.
Regards.
MsJag4Jag
Moderator
Why would one tolerate something he does not stand for? I mean. Aside from gay folks....Drug abusers, pedofiles.... I don't stand for that, but should I tolerate it because it might hurt the drug user or pedofiles little feelings?
To some extent we do tolerate differences....However, this difference is one that clearly goes against the belief of many. In some countries, cows and monkeys are sacred. In other countries, they are a delicasy (sp?). Which do you tolerate? Eating the animals or not eating them?
Vinita
Let's Go Lions, GO!
I'd rather be preached the gospel by this man, who is open with his sexuality, and comfortable within his OWN relationship with HIS God, than some Bible banging zealot who acts as if he is above reproach when 3 or 4 kids in the congregation are his, yet he and his wife have no children; or the one who molests boys and smiles in their parents faces.
Now, as far as this "man" who is accusing this guy of "inappropriate touching" ... he could have just done what I would have, and jacked that fool in his jaw, as opposed to waiting until something big was about to happen to speak up.
My guess is the isht was neither inappropriate or unsolicited.
Now, as far as this "man" who is accusing this guy of "inappropriate touching" ... he could have just done what I would have, and jacked that fool in his jaw, as opposed to waiting until something big was about to happen to speak up.
My guess is the isht was neither inappropriate or unsolicited.