Dirk Nowitzki of the Dallas Mavericks


SAME OLD G

SAME OLD G

A product of Greatness
Staff member
Last year we had a discussion about who was the best white boy in the NBA. There were a number of names brought up and the reasons why, but I said at that time it was Dirk Nowitzki.

<h3>Do you believe me now?</h3>

And I will even say that he is one of the top 5 best players in the league today....better than Allen Iverson. The scary thing is that he is only 23 and still learning.

The boy is cold! Just ask Kevin Garnett.

BTW - Go Lakers!
 
I agree with you SOG. But the thing of it is this. We(black folk)
probably need to stop labeling as a white boy. Sure they have the same melanin. But those Euro cats are a different breed than our(US) version of the white boy. LOL

This brings me to the question. Are those guys getting that much better. Or are guys here just not grasping the fundamentals.
You have Nowitzki and Peja Stoakovic who are in the top 10 players in the NBA. They are considerably better than when Vlade Divac and Toni Kukoc can into the league. Only Drazen Petrovic was as good as these guys. Too bad he got killed. Now all the teams have a Euro type player. And they are pretty damn good. I still say the league is not on the level it used to be. Maybe the big men are better than before. Especially the new breed Power Forwards. But like Earl Monroe said last night, the fundamental shooter is not in the league now.
 



. Only Drazen Petrovic was as good as these guys. Too bad he got killed.
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Damm! Petrovic was raw, folks slept on him though. Derrick Coleman, Kenny Anderson, and Petrovic could have won championships together in New Jersey. RIP Drazen :(
 
Originally posted by JR

This brings me to the question. Are those guys getting that much better. Or are guys here just not grasping the fundamentals.
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JR,

Its kinda like comparing apples to oranges. The game here in the states has turned into a more physicall game and is played more above the rim. Players are playing more post up and half court offenses. In the Euro league, it is much more wide open...not nearly as physical. Defense is not stressed that much. Because of this, Euro players naturally develop a perimeter shootig game because they are offense minded.

Look at all of Euro players you mentioned. The one thing they all have in common is their perimiter shooting, great passing ability, and the ability to run the floor well.

One of the first things you hear a coach say when a Euro player comes over here to play is that the player needs to work on defense and establish a post game if they are going to be able to keep up with the rest of the NBA.
 
Dirk is good, but he's not in the top five. I agree the wide open game is something they excel in, but like you mention the "D" is their downfall and for that reason I would not put him in the top five.

Since you're a Laker Fan I know you enjoyed that nasty "D" they put on Portland. They ran a clinic on how to play defense.
 
If he is not top five, you would have to name 5 in front of him. I give you Shaq, Kobe, Duncan.


He is first in scoring and rebounding in the playoff, be it only 3 games, but he did average 33 against Garnett.
 
I agree with Ice Man on that. Dirk does not know "D". When considering his being a top 5 player, you have to look at that. On top of that, you might want to consider how he would fit into a system other than the Dallas offense. No doubt that it is the most wide open offense in basketball.
 
First let me say that I don't have a thing against Dirk. Outside of the three you named, I'll take Chris Webber, Tracy McGrady, and Jason Kidd over Dirk.
 
Originally posted by Ice Man
First let me say that I don't have a thing against Dirk. Outside of the three you named, I'll take Chris Webber, Tracy McGrady, and Jason Kidd over Dirk.
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Tell me what Chris Webber, Tracy McGrady and Jason Kidd can do that Dirk can't, and I will tell you what Dirk can that these three can't.

Dirk is a much more complete player than they are.
 
One other thing...I think some of you under estimate Dirk's ability to play defense. I am not saying he is the best out there, but he is not the worst.
 
Like I said I don't have anything against Dirk, he's a awesome player, but I question his defense.

Chris Webber- he can play at least two positions, great rebounder and scorer, plus he can "D" up against all the centers except Shaq and all power forwards. Good hands and passer.

Jason Kidd- best point quard in the game. Good defensive player. What he lacks in scoring he makes up by getting the ball to the people who can score. Good rebounder from the guard position.

Tracy McGrady-he can play three positions and defend from those positions. Great scorer and rebounder.

The knock on Dirk is his defense, but you say he has a complete game. Please explain how can he have a complete game without defense.
 
Originally posted by Ice Man

The knock on Dirk is his defense, but you say he has a complete game. Please explain how can he have a complete game without defense.
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Did you not read my last post?

I think some of you under estimate Dirk's ability to play defense. I am not saying he is the best out there, but he is not the worst.
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In other words, he is not a defensive liability.
 
Lets see, how can one be one of the top rebounders in the league and not play defense.

Dirk is not no where near one of the best defensive fowards in the game. But that is cancelled out because there isn't a foward in the game that can stop him from scoring, NOT ONE. He doesn't need to worry about stopping the top centers, they need to be worried about stopping him.

He made Garnett look like trash, and lets not forget about the 2 40pt games he dropped on Duncan in last years play-off.

I don't think Webber is better, you'll see that he will be lost behind that line trying to prevent Dirk from popping those 3's.
 



Tracy McGrady is a more complete player than Nowitzki. McGrady can score from the outside and inside and play tough defense. Nowitzki is nice. But I think that McGrady is a more complete player. As a matter of fact I think that McGrady is one of the most complete players in the game.

As for the American game it seems like a lot of NBA coaches are forgetting what a fast break is-especially Pat Riley. I wonder how often the Miami Heat ran a decent fast break since the 1995-96 season. The Knicks have been built to where they cannot consistently run a fast break. This is another reason why I love the Showtime Lakers of Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Nixon, and the rest.
 
Originally posted by EB
Tracy McGrady is a more complete player than Nowitzki. McGrady can score from the outside and inside and play tough defense. Nowitzki is nice. But I think that McGrady is a more complete player. As a matter of fact I think that McGrady is one of the most complete players in the game.
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Well I can appreciate the argument for this, but there is a difference between the two.

McGrady is a scorer. Nowitzki is a shooter. There is a difference

McGrady is primarily a scorer who just happens to be a decent shooter from the perimeter.

Nowitzki on the other had can do it all. McGrady doesn't have the range of Nowitzki - it ain't even close, but Nowitzki can be just as effective in the paint as McGrady.
 
Originally posted by Ice Man
...I'll take Chris Webber, Tracy McGrady, and Jason Kidd over Dirk.
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Dude, I would take Steve Nash over Jason Kidd. And anyone who says that Jason Kidd is a better point guard than Steve Nash don't know basketball.
 
Than I suppose I dont know basketball. Kidd is the "prototype" guard. PERIOD. He gets his team involved AT ALL TIMES, yet is capable of TAKING A GAME OVER HIMSELF if need be.

Let's not forget Steve Nash's supporting cast of players like Finley, Dirk, and VanExel. A point guard can cruise like a mo'fo with a cast like that. I aint' taking nothing from Nash though. The dude has SKILLZ.
 
Right now I will take Kidd over Nash although Nash is very good.

It is easy to see that New Jersey won the Kidd-Marbury trade. As long as they still play the same way and stay on their present teams, NJ will win a title long before the Suns will. Kidd gets everyone involved. If Kidd gets to be a deadly shooter (He was good tonight.), the Nets will better. BTW I liked Kidd's defense tonight. The Mavs are not a great defensive team.

Hmmmm, I wonder how would Kidd do with Showtime. Sure, there is only on Magic. But Showtime would still look nice with Kidd.
 
Ain't a mofo in the league better than A.I. First of all no one has his heart...he's the toughest strong minded mofo in the league.
I can't think of anyone that would play with the amount of injuries this kid has and perform at such a level.

But beyond that, no one can guard him. Although there is not one other all-star player on the squad to take the pressure off, he still delivers each night. Just imagine if he had a low post threat that could demand a double team so that he could get some open looks. Plus he gets bumped and bruised on every foray inside the paint, but that doesn't deter him at all.

Go ahead and put anyone of the leagues top defenders on him and watch them get torched (like Ebay did last year). The best player under 6'5" to ever play the game (yes even better than Isiah Thomas)

Yall better recognize!!!!
 
Hey these are some good discussions.
Everybody has posted some legit points. I personally think that Tim Duncan is the most complete player. Tim rebounds, he passes, he blocks shots and he scores(nice touch from mid range). Now he doesn't have Nowitzki's outside shooting touch.

I agree with SOG that TMAC is a scorer that also can defend and that Nowitzki is a shooter. That's a good assesment. He is definetly a top 10 player in my book. And his defense is not bad. But he doesn't defend as good as other big men. But besides Shaq and Duncan. No other big man can score the ball like him either. And he has a variety of ways to do it. Inside and out. TMAC and Kobe are probably the the best all around players outside of Timmy Fundamental. Kobe is still overated as a defensive player. Rick Fox and Robert Horry are better defenders than Kobe. But he still is a complete player and so is Mc Grady. VC could be if he played harder on defense. Maybe he'll work on it like fellow NC alum Stackhouse did. Paul Pierce is on his way as a complete player. He needs to work on a few things.

Now as far as the point guard position goes. Nash is nice. But Jason Kidd is the prototype. He makes his team better. This has been proven every where he has been. Now that Kidd looks to score he has developed into a very lethal PG. You have to take Kidd over Nash just because of Kidd's versatility. He's a bigger guard that can post up. But can run the break, drive to the hole and now hit the outside Jumper. The only thing Nash has ove Jason is being consistent with the outside shot. Plus Kidd is a better defender. Nash is good though. Just not on Kidd's level. Kidd is playing like Gary Payton did during Seattle's run back in the 90's. I guess it's an Oakland thing.

Mike Bigg,
Me and you may be the biggest AI fans on the board. He without question has the most heart of any player in the NBA. He is a warrior. He also defends well(lots of steals). Especially for his size. My only problem with AI is he can be like Kobe and get into this I got to score every basket mode. Well he pretty much have to at Philly. But he deserves to mentioned. His shooting percentage can be ugly at times too. AI is my boy and all. But Isaih and Nate"Tiny" Archibald's game were better overall. Nate lead the NBA in scoring and assists when he was with the KC Kings. So Bigg we disagree on who was the best small man ever. Isaih and Nate made their team better. AI is the team. LOL
 
Ole G,

Jason Kidd might be the MVP of the NBA.... Steve Nash is having one outstanding season, that along will not bring him into the Jason Kidd category. There have been a bunch of players who had one or two good years.

Scoring in the NBA is overated, defense win championships. Dallas is not a good defensive team. That's why this current group will not win a NBA Championship. If Dallas play the Lakers you'll see how weak Dirk and Steve Nash play defense. BTW, you got to be enjoying the playoff since you are a Laker fan and sounds like you are a Dallas fan too.

JR,

Kobe is the best defensive player in the NBA because he can defend three positions (Small Forward, Shooting Guard, and Point Guard) head up without help. Also, he can play great team defense.
 
Originally posted by Ice Man
Ole G,

Jason Kidd might be the MVP of the NBA.... Steve Nash is having one outstanding season, that along will not bring him into the Jason Kidd category. There have been a bunch of players who had one or two good years.

Scoring in the NBA is overated, defense win championships. Dallas is not a good defensive team. That's why this current group will not win a NBA Championship. If Dallas play the Lakers you'll see how weak Dirk and Steve Nash play defense. BTW, you got to be enjoying the playoff since you are a Laker fan and sounds like you are a Dallas fan too.
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Ice,

Let me make sure I am understood. I am not comparing Jason Kidd's career to Steve Nash, because they don't compare. Jason Kidd has the edge overall. I was comparing the two based on this season alone...they are both All-Stars.

As you mentioned, I am a die-hard Laker fan. And if they face the Mavs, its the Lakers all the way for me. The only reason why I am so high on the Mavs is bacause I witnessed first hand those horrible years. I have been in Dallas for about 10 years now and I have seen some horrible players come and go. Since Mark Cuban took over, this team came out of nowhere. Dallas is where a lot of players want to come. I am just happy for them. And they are fun to watch.

Thats all. ;)
 
Based on this season I can understand you taking Steve Nash. You're right the Mavs are fun to watch. I have the NBA Pass so I watched a lot of their games. The thing that stood out was their lack of defense. While the Lakers defense is the best I've seen in years. I'm not talking about the mugging kind of defense the Bad Boys and the Knicks played. The Lakers play good clean defense.
 
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