Another SCG/Playoff comparison

[GRAM4LIFE]

We weren't competitive when we did participate. What does participating in the playoffs have to do with our overall competitiveness? I get tired of people saying that being involved in the playoffs will get teams in this conference to play better. It won't. The MEAC is no more competitive than the SWAC is in the overall scheme of things. Look at their record against us. They get happy just to play these playoff teams close. The OVC is not competitive either. It has nothing to do with the playoffs. It's committment.

 

[GRAM4LIFE]

PNeck019,

I can only answer for myself. Unequivocally Yes!! Because my thoughts are not based some emotional plea, as you are alluded too. My reasons are bases on financial issues along with the current NCAA guidelines that would not allow SWAC nor the Big South Conference (once the gain a 6th member) or the Great West Football Conference an automatic bid to participate in the playoffs.

As a Consultant, it does not make financial sense for Southern University and Grambling State University to change the concepts nor parameters of Bayou Classic at this time at least not until the NCAA make provisions for such that it changes the complexity of only half the field (currently 8 of 16 participants) gaining automatics bids to the Championship Tournament.

1) The current NCAA rules on automatics bids preclude the entire conference from earning an automatic bid.

Without the automatic bid, the SWAC will never participate in the playoffs again. Trust...

 

[Storm96]

We weren't competitive when we did participate. What does participating in the playoffs have to do with our overall competitiveness? I get tired of people saying that being involved in the playoffs will get teams in this conference to play better.

I have to co-sign this. People are acting as if the D1aa playoffs are some kind of cure-all. I previously asked what effect has hampton and scsu's participation in the playoffs have on the deleware states, and norfolk's of the meac? People who are advocating the playoffs for the swac should seriously ask themselves that if the SWAC received an automatic bid in the playoffs next season will their program be ready? I seriously doubt that building a competitive program is any way related to ones participation or ability to participate in the playoffs.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

I agree with Gram4Life and Storm96. I have stated this in many posts. If you look closely, the only team since the beginning of the SWAC Championship Game that would have had a high enough RPI to merit an at-large bid to the playoffs that is not ineligible because of the Bayou Classic or the Turkey Day Classic would have been the Grambling State team in 2001 and that is only because of 9/11 and the postponement of the playoffs for a week. Our conference overall performance is deep than the conference participating in the NCAA playoffs.

 

[EB]

If the football playoffs are not worth it, then why should the SWAC bother with the post-seasons in volleyball, basketball, track and field, and baseball?

No, I do not feel that just particpating in the playoffs will improve the overall conference play. But the administrations of the schools have to lead the way in raising the level of play in our conference.

 

[Robber]

Without regard to the merits of either side, I find it interesting that the vast majority of those who are against the playoffs are from schools who are ineligible to participate anyway and historically weren't good enough to qualify even if they were eligible.

This isn't about a "cure all". The SCG ain't no "cure all". Neither one is. I'm guessing this will all be moot sooner or later. At the rate the SCG is going, it'll die a slow death.

 

[EB]

Without regard to the merits of either side, I find it interesting that the vast majority of those who are against the playoffs are from schools who are ineligible to participate anyway and historically weren't good enough to qualify even if they were eligible.

This isn't about a "cure all". The SCG ain't no "cure all". Neither one is. I'm guessing this will all be moot sooner or later. At the rate the SCG is going, it'll die a slow death.

I'll cosign this.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

EB,

If the football playoffs are not worth it, then why should the SWAC bother with the post-seasons in volleyball, basketball, track and field, and baseball?

That is pretty obvious. The "Classic" event we have for volleyball, basketball, track and field, and baseball is call the SWAC Tournament for each sport. Furthermore we have not created an option for post-season Classic event for these sports.

No, I do not feel that just particpating in the playoffs will improve the overall conference play. But the administrations of the schools have to lead the way in raising the level of play in our conference.

I have openly stated this is the case. But, forcing the Bayou Classic and Turkey Day Classic to change the date and canceling the SWAC Championship Game, so the can participate as an at-large bid to the NCAA Division I AA playoffs isn't going to force the administrations (presidents) of the schools to to lead the way in raising the level of play in our conference.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Robber,

Without regard to the merits of either side, I find it interesting that the vast majority of those who are against the playoffs are from schools who are ineligible to participate anyway and historically weren't good enough to qualify even if they were eligible.

This isn't about a "cure all". The SCG ain't no "cure all". Neither one is. I'm guessing this will all be moot sooner or later. At the rate the SCG is going, it'll die a slow death.

The SCG dieing a slow death is going to chance the fact that our eligible programs have not had records and RPI high enough to earn an at-large bid to the playoffs. So the SWAC still isn't going to have a participant participating in the playoffs.

 

[Robber]

Robber,



The SCG dieing a slow death is going to chance the fact that our eligible programs have not had records and RPI high enough to earn an at-large bid to the playoffs. So the SWAC still isn't going to have a participant participating in the playoffs.

I don't buy that for a second. Hell, JSU been the playoffs 13 times as an at large participant. I don't see why we won't again, if given the opportunity. We won't always be down. We last went in '97 and would have gone in '99. So let's not act like we never have anyone eligible and good enough.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Robber,

I don't buy that for a second. Hell, JSU been the playoffs 13 times as an at large participant. I don't see why we won't again, if given the opportunity. We won't always be down. We last went in '97 and would have gone in '99. So let's not act like we never have anyone eligible and good enough.

I think it well known around these boards that JSU has participated in the playoffs as an at-large bid team 13 times. JSU has had the same opportunity it always had in participating in the playoffs as an at-large bid. Furthermore, I did not say that JSU would never participate in the playoffs again. At this point the SCG has not precluded JSU from participating in the playoffs. I am stating the obvious.

The record of JSU has precluded JSU from participating in the playoffs. You talked as if the SCG game is the reason JSU has not participating in the playoffs. This is simply not the case. According to the RPI of programs that made the playoffs in 1999, it is doubtful that JSU would have earned an at-large bid. But, even if you wish that is the case, the SCG has not precluded the JSU from participating in the playoffs the last 5 years. If you wish to believe that the SCG is in the way of JSU earning an at-large bid to the playoffs, so be it.

 

[Robber]

Robber,

I think it well known around these boards that JSU has participated in the playoffs as an at-large bid team 13 times. JSU has had the same opportunity it always had in participating in the playoffs as an at-large bid. Furthermore, I did not say that JSU would never participate in the playoffs again. At this point the SCG has not precluded JSU from participating in the playoffs. I am stating the obvious.

The record of JSU has precluded JSU from participating in the playoffs. You talked as if the SCG game is the reason JSU has not participating in the playoffs. This is simply not the case. According to the RPI of programs that made the playoffs in 1999, it is doubtful that JSU would have earned an at-large bid. But, even if you wish that is the case, the SCG has not precluded the JSU from participating in the playoffs the last 5 years. If you wish to believe that the SCG is in the way of JSU earning an at-large bid to the playoffs, so be it.

Dude don't put words in my post. You won't find any of the stuff you just posted in my post. I never hinted at or suggested. I've always understood that there is a chance at going to the playoffs, even with the SCG. But I also believe that if JSU is good enough to make the playoffs, then we're most likely playing in the SCG. Two divisional teams can have great seasons, but it's so rare. Whereas, if you were a playoff participating conference, the best team has an infinitely better chance at going.

This is what I responded to:

Robber,



The SCG dieing a slow death is going to chance the fact that our eligible programs have not had records and RPI high enough to earn an at-large bid to the playoffs. <font color=red>So the SWAC still isn't going to have a participant participating in the playoffs.</font>

Those are your words. You stated that we weren't gonna go to the playoffs because of our past records. I don't have to make inferences to say this, because it's what you said.

 

[Dr. Mac]

I agree that playing in the Playoffs won't, necessarily, improve any of the programs in the conference. The conference, itself, has more sayso on the quality of the programs improving than the impact of participating in the playoffs does, and it can do this by making a committment to do so. The nine-game mandate hurts the conference moreso with respect to improving its quality of play than not participating in the playoffs does, and will continue to do so unless the conference, as a whole, makes an substantial committment in effort and dollars to improve it in each of its member schools' programs.

Improving the quality of play comes in the regular season and occurs when one plays other schools that have good or outstanding programs. We can't expect to have much or consistent success against good programs in a playoff situation when, first, we have to improve the quality of play in the conference to a level where all of our teams play high level competitive football each weekend (particularly conference games), and second, we each don't play enough high level non-conference competition during the regular season. Both of these are required in order to achieve any serious and consistent playoff success.

That said, I still don't and won't advocate SU's participation in the playoffs under its current setup. And finally, the SCG's slow death and/or demise will result from the nine-game mandate moreso than from not participating in the playoffs or anything else. The mandate is a very bad decision. It limits the number of opportunities to play good non-conference programs during the regular season, some of the same types of programs that a school might possibly meet in some type of post-season setup (championship, bowl, or playoffs). The council of presidents should commit to improving the programs at all of the schools in the conference to make them consistently competetive regardless of who the competition is (conference and non-conference) before setting any future direction with respect to SCG, Bowl game type setups in the post-season, or member school participation in the playoffs.

Regards.

 

[PNeck019]

Good post Dr. Mac.

I think for the most part the powers-that-be are content to whip up on the substandard competition in the league and then beat their chests for going 9-2.

 

[GRAM4LIFE]

Actually Robber... I support going to the playoffs and don't like the SCG either. So, I'm one of those people from a school who can't participate in the playoffs who isn't against it. I'm just not delusional on the impact of the playoffs on our competitiveness. I actually believe that the top team from the SWAC can compete and win a game in the playoffs.

 

[MACHIAVELLI]

Secondly, with a SU loss to GSU and Bama State loss to Skegee, Bama State and SU didn't play for the National Black Championship. We played each other earlier in the season and along with Coe's statements and the way Bama State played against PB, this nearly killed the spirits of a lot of people. I can tell you that the ASU loss to Skegee killed about 5,000 ASU fans from attending the SCG. I know a lot of people who didn't attend the SCG for those very reasons. Some of those statements were made exactly one week before the SCG in the Montgomery Advertiser.

You are joking right?

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Robber,

Dude don't put words in my post. You won't find any of the stuff you just posted in my post. I never hinted at or suggested. I've always understood that there is a chance at going to the playoffs, even with the SCG. But I also believe that if JSU is good enough to make the playoffs, then we're most likely playing in the SCG. Two divisional teams can have great seasons, but it's so rare. Whereas, if you were a playoff participating conference, the best team has an infinitely better chance at going.

I did not put words in your mouth. I apologize if you fell that way. But I also believe that if JSU is good enough to make the playoffs, then they may not most likely be playing in the SCG.

I disagree with the assumption that two divisional teams having great seasons are rare. This is one of my premises based on the current NCAA bylaws and rules. I do not agree that if our conference was a playoff participant that the best team has an infinitely better chance at going to the playoffs, because under the NCAA bylaws the SWAC is currently a playoff participant.

Those are your words. You stated that we weren't gonna go to the playoffs because of our past records. I don't have to make inferences to say this, because it's what you said.

Yes, I did make the leap that if we do not change the recent past RPI of our conference members teams that we will not gain an at-large bid to participate in the playoffs. Based on the recent action of all involved in the last five years, until we improve on our conference RPI we will not earn a bid to participate in the playoffs rather or not there is a SCG.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Dr. Mac,

For whatever it worth. Intriguing viewpoints.

I agree that playing in the Playoffs won't, necessarily, improve any of the programs in the conference. The conference, itself, has more sayso on the quality of the programs improving than the impact of participating in the playoffs does, and it can do this by making a committment to do so. The nine-game mandate hurts the conference moreso with respect to improving its quality of play than not participating in the playoffs does, and will continue to do so unless the conference, as a whole, makes an substantial committment in effort and dollars to improve it in each of its member schools' programs.

I agree.

Improving the quality of play comes in the regular season and occurs when one plays other schools that have good or outstanding programs. We can't expect to have much or consistent success against good programs in a playoff situation when, first, we have to improve the quality of play in the conference to a level where all of our teams play high level competitive football each weekend (particularly conference games), and second, we each don't play enough high level non-conference competition during the regular season. Both of these are required in order to achieve any serious and consistent playoff success.

I disagree.

That said, I still don't and won't advocate SU's participation in the playoffs under its current setup.

I agree.

And finally, the SCG's slow death and/or demise will result from the nine-game mandate moreso than from not participating in the playoffs or anything else.

I disagree

The mandate is a very bad decision. It limits the number of opportunities to play good non-conference programs during the regular season, some of the same types of programs that a school might possibly meet in some type of post-season setup (championship, bowl, or playoffs). The council of presidents should commit to improving the programs at all of the schools in the conference to make them consistently competetive regardless of who the competition is (conference and non-conference) before setting any future direction with respect to SCG, Bowl game type setups in the post-season, or member school participation in the playoffs.

I agree.

Regards.

 

[JSU/99]

Robber,
But I also believe that if JSU is good enough to make the playoffs, then they may not most likely be playing in the SCG.

For JSU or any other SWAC team to make the playoffs, they have to go 9-2 at least and probably be ranked in the top 20. I can't see us doing that and not making the SCG.

 

[MACHIAVELLI]

For JSU or any other SWAC team to make the playoffs, they have to go 9-2 at least and probably be ranked in the top 20. I can't see us doing that and not making the SCG.

I can't see it happening for obvious reasons. But it is possible, though highly unlikely. Same for Alcorn, if the NCAA rule wouldn't come into place. alcorn and jsu could possibly go undefeated until the CCC. One team would be undefeated and go to the SCG and the other would have 1 loss.

 

[JSU/99]

I can't see it happen for obvious reasons. But it is possible, though highly unlikely. Same for Alcorn, if the NCAA rule wouldn't come into place. alcorn and jsu could possibly go undefeated until the CCC. One team would be undefeated and go to the SCG and the other would have 1 loss.

maybe so. Basically it would be like in the 90s when SU would go to the heritage bowl and we'd go to the playoffs.

 

[bluedog]

I don't hear people on hear crying about the NCAA playoffs in any of the other sports. .

PNeck you can't be serious man, you know full well all the other sports aren't ran the way they run D-IA football compared to D-IAA football. Remember we (SWAC) are all D-IA in all the other sports.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

JSU/99,

For JSU or any other SWAC team to make the playoffs, they have to go 9-2 at least and probably be ranked in the top 20.

I agree. Actually, I think it would have to be top 15.

I can't see us doing that and not making the SCG.

It is difficult to view with Coach Bell. But I can see it between AA&MU, JSU, or AlSU. It would be similar to what MACHIAVELLI alluded too. Actually it is not much difference to what has happen over the last couple of years between various programs earning a spot in the SCG without the non-conferences losses and non-divisional losses attached.

Unfortunately, it has been the records of AA&MU, JSU, AlSU, MVSU, TxSU, PVA&MU, and UAPB records against non-conference competition and one another that has done more damage to our participation in the playoffs as at-large members than the SCG.

Personally, I would love to follow the Albany State road map for lack a of better illustration of building the program. They felt as if the where left out of the playoffs and did their thing in the Pioneer Bowl after winning the SIAC conference in 2003. Then game back the next year in 2004, won the SIAC and made a strong run through the playoffs.

Of course Prairie View would have to win the conference the first year and then be the runner up in divisional play the following year and make a run through the playoffs. Of course as you all would imagine I would settle for a winning season at this point (Smile).

 

[Da_Sperm]

Unfortunately, it has been the records of AA&MU, JSU, AlSU, MVSU, TxSU, PVA&MU, and UAPB records against non-conference competition and one another that has done more damage to our participation in the playoffs as at-large members than the SCG.

Why leave out SU, GSU, and ASU? Over the past 5 years, I don't think there is 1 SWAC school that has gone .500 in non-conference play. Competition against conference member means someone HAS TO LOOSE. Right now, the SWAC simply beats the SWAC.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Da Sprem,

Why leave out SU, GSU, and ASU? Over the past 5 years, I don't think there is 1 SWAC school that has gone .500 in non-conference play. Competition against conference member means someone HAS TO LOOSE. Right now, the SWAC simply beats the SWAC.

We where topping about playoffs at-large bid opportunities. So because of the context of the discussion, I left out these 3 institutions purposely.
Remember it would not matter if they went undefeated and beat the number team in the nation in a non-conference game and/or where the number 1 team in either of the top 25 Division I AA polls. They would not earn an at-large bid to the playoffs because of their participation in the Bayou Classic and the Turkey Day Classic.