LeBron, Kobe and MJ


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JR said:
You had to play one on one then. So bad defensive players can get exposed. If you changed the rules back to the way it used be, you would see some of the same thing. That's why I think players like MJ, Dennis Johnson, Gary Payton and others were better defenders because you couldn't play that zone and they would call that illegal defense on your arse in a NY second if you tried some stuff. Pat Riley was notorious for it. Michael Cooper was an excellent defender. 6'7 and long with speed.
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The zone defense hasn't be around for that long, and teams rarely use it.
 
kendrick said:
The zone defense hasn't be around for that long, and teams rarely use it.
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It has been around longer than you realize and it does help because you don't get illegal defenses called anymore. You can get away with more defensive strategy now than back then. I know a lot of good coaches don't like them in the NBA. So that's why you don't see them. Also it backfires on you against a good shooting team. I wish they just get rid of it. I think more teams just try to camp out on one side of the court (old illegal defense) and force you into help. You couldn't do that back then. Only thing they don't let happen that they did in the old days is let a defender camp out in the lane. Now you get 3 second defensive calls like the offense always did.

Zone defense came into place in the early 2000s.

Zone defenses were prohibited in the National Basketball Association prior to the 2001–2002 season. The NBA currently permits the use of zones; however, teams generally do not use them as a primary defensive strategy and no zone defense may feature an unguarded defender inside the free-throw lane (a violation of that results in a defensive three-second violation, which is a technical foul). The Dallas Mavericks are an example of an NBA team that regularly uses zone defenses; during the 2011 Playoffs, their zone defense was credited with slowing down offenses, forcing opposing players to recognize which defense they were playing.[1] Zone defenses are more common in international, college, and youth competition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_defense
 



kendrick said:
The zone defense hasn't be around for that long, and teams rarely use it.
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JR said:
It has been around longer than you realize and it does help because you don't get illegal defenses called anymore. You can get away with more defensive strategy now than back then. I know a lot of good coaches don't like them in the NBA. So that's why you don't see them. Also it backfires on you against a good shooting team. I wish they just get rid of it. I think more teams just try to camp out on one side of the court (old illegal defense) and force you into help. You couldn't do that back then. Only thing they don't let happen that they did in the old days is let a defender camp out in the lane. Now you get 3 second defensive calls like the offense always did.

Zone defense came into place in the early 2000s.

Zone defenses were prohibited in the National Basketball Association prior to the 2001–2002 season. The NBA currently permits the use of zones; however, teams generally do not use them as a primary defensive strategy and no zone defense may feature an unguarded defender inside the free-throw lane (a violation of that results in a defensive three-second violation, which is a technical foul). The Dallas Mavericks are an example of an NBA team that regularly uses zone defenses; during the 2011 Playoffs, their zone defense was credited with slowing down offenses, forcing opposing players to recognize which defense they were playing.[1] Zone defenses are more common in international, college, and youth competition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_defense
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Good way to explain how bad the NBA has become. You are right and the NBA needs to go back to the old way.
 
The zone defense was allowed in the NBA primarily to stop Shaq. Its still a modified version because the defense is not allowed to stand in the lane for longer than 3 seconds. If you can't play defense you will still get exposed because its so hard to maintain a zone.
 
JR said:
C'mon on now. Lebron lets folks like Deshawn Stephenson get in his head. Nobody said Lebron don't have the physical ability. His deal is mental toughness.
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I thought yal were talking about physical toughness. You're changing it. As much shat Stephenson talked, you never saw him stand n the way of LeBron and attempt to knock his arse to the ground. Jordan got into the heads of many players on your list. Lack of Mental toughness is not unique to this decade.

Also now you're eliminating everyone drafted in the 90s who still plays now. LOL Stop changing your criteria.
 
I think the bottom line is this:

Most folks are going to be bias to their own era of basketball.

The only reall difference I have seen between NBA players now and the 80's and before is that most players now are far more likely to depend on raw athleticism over fundamental basketball skills. Other than that, the comparisons will be pretty equal.
 
jag4life said:
I thought yal were talking about physical toughness. You're changing it. As much shat Stephenson talked, you never saw him stand n the way of LeBron and attempt to knock his arse to the ground. Jordan got into the heads of many players on your list. Lack of Mental toughness is not unique to this decade.

Also now you're eliminating everyone drafted in the 90s who still plays now. LOL Stop changing your criteria.
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I am not changing my criteria. But Lebron allows some of that until the Pacers pissed him off enough, that it effects his physical toughness. Same reason Bird called out his team. These new school cats allow that to get in the way. They would get molly whooped by those old heads in their primes both mentally and physically. I gave Lebron his due, because I am a fan of his. But he would have struggled with those guys because HE allows it to happen. Unless he get MAD enough. Not to mention he would really get hacked with the rules of the 80s.
 
UAPB '97 said:
I think the bottom line is this:

Most folks are going to be bias to their own era of basketball.

The only reall difference I have seen between NBA players now and the 80's and before is that most players now are far more likely to depend on raw athleticism over fundamental basketball skills. Other than that, the comparisons will be pretty equal.
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That is a very good point. The kids are athletically gifted but a lot of these folks think because guys wore short shorts back than that they were slower, smaller and not athletic. I still haven't seen one cat that is 6'4 that could leap like David Thompson could. Vertical leap numbers in the 70s and 80s are the same numbers in the 2000s. If you were fast then, you would be fast now. Magic's 6'9 then is the same 6'9 now. There would be no answer for him at the PG position if he was the same Magic coming out of Michigan St now like he was then. What PG could match up with him? He struggled defensively against smaller guards then just like he would now. But like you said, those cats were a lot more fundamentally sound compared to now. That's why some never get any better. I was watching Roy Hibbert last night and thought that even as a rookie, Pat Ewing was way better than Hibbert is now.
 
JR said:
That is a very good point. The kids are athletically gifted but a lot of these folks think because guys wore short shorts back than that they were slower, smaller and not athletic. I still haven't seen one cat that is 6'4 that could leap like David Thompson could. Vertical leap numbers in the 70s and 80s are the same numbers in the 2000s. If you were fast then, you would be fast now. Magic's 6'9 then is the same 6'9 now. There would be no answer for him at the PG position if he was the same Magic coming out of Michigan St now like he was then. What PG could match up with him? He struggled defensively against smaller guards then just like he would now. But like you said, those cats were a lot more fundamentally sound compared to now. That's why some never get any better. I was watching Roy Hibbert last night and thought that even as a rookie, Pat Ewing was way better than Hibbert is now.
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Great points! The NBA will be better when fundamentals come back.
 
wahines said:
Great points! The NBA will be better when fundamentals come back.
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The NBA is the youngest of the professional sports.

Being that it is makes it easier to compare individual players, teams and even eras. But it also creates a situation where the older basketball observers don't appreciate the current generation of talent and the younger generation doesn't appreciate the eras before them. There will always be a clash in that regard.

The way I look at it folks who grew up 40 years ago have a very segregated eye for the game: meaning fans of the 60s, 70s and even 80s to an extent were only exposed to a limited amount of teams and players from a national standpoint. If you see the same handful of teams all the time your view of the sport will be a certain way.

Today we can see and analyze all the players, teams and even games any time we want. So, it makes easier to be critical of the current product.

For example people like to lament how bad free-throw shooting is in today's NBA compared to yesteryear when players never missed foul shots. Well, league wide free-throw percentage hasn't changed in 30 years. It's just now we are able see all these cats shot free-throws.
 
kendrick said:
The NBA is the youngest of the professional sports.

Being that it is makes it easier to compare individual players, teams and even eras. But it also creates a situation where the older basketball observers don't appreciate the current generation of talent and the younger generation doesn't appreciate the eras before them. There will always be a clash in that regard.

The way I look at it folks who grew up 40 years ago have a very segregated eye for the game: meaning fans of the 60s, 70s and even 80s to an extent were only exposed to a limited amount of teams and players from a national standpoint. If you see the same handful of teams all the time your view of the sport will be a certain way.

Today we can see and analyze all the players, teams and even games any time we want. So, it makes easier to be critical of the current product.

For example people like to lament how bad free-throw shooting is in today's NBA compared to yesteryear when players never missed foul shots. Well, league wide free-throw percentage hasn't changed in 30 years. It's just now we are able see all these cats shot free-throws.
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And you are right about one thing; a lot of the current product is not good! A lot of today's player, with the athletic ability would be even better than some of the players back in the day if the fundamentals of the game was taught.
 
wahines said:
And you are right about one thing; a lot of the current product is not good! A lot of today's player, with the athletic ability would be even better than some of the players back in the day if the fundamentals of the game was taught.
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Huh? I never said the current product wasn't good.

Sports in general are coached more intensely and frequently than ever before. Kids are specialized these days, in camps and programs before they even get into middle school. Young athletes and their parents pay for individual coaching and training -- something you didn't see when our fathers were growing up. You can say a lot of things about sports, but to say the fundamentals aren't being taught is a flat out untruth.
 
kendrick said:
Huh? I never said the current product wasn't good.

Sports in general are coached more intensely and frequently than ever before. Kids are specialized these days, in camps and programs before they even get into middle school. Young athletes and their parents pay for individual coaching and training -- something you didn't see when our fathers were growing up. You can say a lot of things about sports, but to say the fundamentals aren't being taught is a flat out untruth.
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Next time, watch a game and see how guys don't know weakside defense and how to set a simple screen. These camps are here to make money.
 



wahines said:
Next time, watch a game and see how guys don't know weakside defense and how to set a simple screen.
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That doesn't mean those fundamentals aren't being taught because cats are unable to set screens or fail to help on defensive rotations. That's on the players. Not always the coaching. Don't you know how many folks over the years tried to help Shaq shoot free throws and he still was horrible at it?

Heck, the Orlando Magic hired Mark Price, one of the greatest shooters of all-time, to help Dwight Howard shoot free-throws and he still sucks at it.

Again, you can't say fundamentals aren't being taught.
 
kendrick said:
That doesn't mean those fundamentals aren't being taught because cats are unable to set screens or fail to help on defensive rotations. That's on the players. Not always the coaching. Don't you know how many folks over the years tried to help Shaq shoot free throws and he still was horrible at it?

Heck, the Orlando Magic hired Mark Price, one of the greatest shooters of all-time, to help Dwight Howard shoot free-throws and he still sucks at it.

Again, you can't say fundamentals aren't being taught.
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I forgot, feeding the post has become an lost art, now argue with Magic Johnson and other greats that has said that. Shaq and Dwight Howard are hard worker and that will be always a weakness of their games, just like Wilt. I watched an AAU Games. When they can run up and down the court, the game was ok, but as soon as they had to play half-court, it was awful.
 
wahines said:
When they can run up and down the court, the game was ok, but as soon as they had to play half-court, it was awful.
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Yep.

Just like it was when Pop first took over the Spurs, Riley coached the Knicks and Heat; and Mike Fratello walked the sideline in Atlanta and Cleveland.
 
kendrick said:
All ya'll screaming about how these 80s and 90s defenses were tough fail to remember that Jordan averaged 37 points a game in one season in the mid-80s playing against those same cats you tout.

Not to mention, the average PPG in the NBA in 1989 (just picking a random year) was 109. Where was this defense? Seems to me nobody was playing much of it. The Jazz led the league in OPPG with 99.0. Compare that to the 2012 Bulls who led the NBA with 88.2.
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You forget.
All 5 players on the floor back then could actually hit a jump shot further than 9 feet out. AND THAT WAS WITH PEOPLE HANGING ALL OVER THEM IN THE HAND CHECKING / ELBOW IN THE BACK ERA OF DEFENSE. They didn't have to rely on just going to the hoop.

These mofos today will be happy to shoot 18 for 43 from the field. Can you imaging how many points a Terry Porter, Danny Ange, Larry Bird, Micheal Cooper, Magic Johnson, Domonique, etc would have if they was playing by todays rules where nobody can put a hand on them. They would constantly run down the floor and light the scoreboard up every night. :lol:
 
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jstate83 said:
You forget.
All 5 players on the floor back then could actually hit a jump shot further than 9 feet out. AND THAT WAS WITH PEOPLE HANGING ALL OVER THEM IN THE HAND CHECKING / ELBOW IN THE BACK ERA OF DEFENSE. They didn't have to rely on just going to the hoop.

These mofos today will be happy to shoot 18 for 43 from the field. Can you imaging how many points a Terry Porter, Danny Ange, Larry Bird, Micheal Cooper, Magic Johnson, Domonique, etc would have if they was playing by todays rules where nobody can put a hand on them. They would constantly run down the floor and light the scoreboard up every night. :lol:
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From HOF basketball writer Sam Smith:

Quietly during the playoffs, the NBA announced a new Competition Committee, the committee that was formerly general managers that considers rules changes. There are some credible new members, like Doc Rivers, Rick Carlisle, Lionel Hollins, Sam Presti and Bryan Colangelo, but also owners Dan Gilbert and Joe Lacob. There’s various speculation about why Commissioner David Stern did this, but it’s going to be an important committee after watching these playoffs.

So many of these games have turned into legalized wrestling matches because the league has allowed defense to get way out of control. You see it all the time—Kevin Durant trying to get free off the ball for a shot at the end of Game 3 and Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum holding him and no call. The freedom of movement that was so trumped a few years ago with changes to allow zone is all but gone.

The scores are down with scoring just over 90 per game and the shooting is down, but not because players can’t shoot. Officials are allowing defenders to mug cutters, forcing all sorts of isolations. If Stern’s idea to change the committee was to save the game, he’s on the right course. These playoffs should be all the evidence he needs.
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