Before Jesus's 2nd Coming, 90 Percent of Humanity Must Die?! Wow!!
- Thread starter JayRob
- Start date
dacontinent
Preacher
Please re-read posts #6 & #18. Then re-read your "fuzzy math" post. If you don't laugh at yourself then we will know that you are more clueless than you have appeared.
If it takes more than a :lmao: to rebut what you have presented and you still don't get it, then you might actually have been given into reprobacy. I ache for you.
If it takes more than a :lmao: to rebut what you have presented and you still don't get it, then you might actually have been given into reprobacy. I ache for you.
bernard
THEE Realist
Just another scare tactic to keep those who believe, believing and dropping money in collection plates on Sundays.
Jesus's 2nd Coming means nothing to non-believers.
JayRob
TigaPaw
Dacon, it truly amazes me that you don't deny that Revelation predicts that billions will die. Whether it's one billion, two, three four or five, you totally ignored the death, misery, violence, bloodshed, pain and suffering millions upon millions of folks will have to endure just so the second coming can take place.
Talk about clueless, folks who actually believe that there's any truth to the book of Revelation may be closer to your statement than I am.
If I had a god who claimed to be a "god of love", yet will be responsible for the deaths of billions of people, I'd post laughing icons too, especially if I had no legitimate rebuttal.
A god of love, whose responsible for the death of billions is nowhere near to being a god of love. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know and understand this.
Again, thank goodness there's no truth to such nonsensical violent prophecies.
dacontinent
Preacher
I have the God of love who could have righteously eradicated all of mankind ... mankind who rejected His love and the eternal expression of it WITH HIM. I will agree with you on being amazed ... that He did not have a Plan B but made provision for EVERY HUMAN to have that eternal expression. I am amazed that most will still choose the route of death. I am amazed that you would choose such a route.
Finally, I am incredibly amazed that you would make such a contention in the form of this thread and produce the combination of poor logic and faulty arithmetic.
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You know, Dacon, I might not agree with most of the things Jay Rob writes or his opinions. However, I think he's asking a fair question here. He might not go the conventional route in probing such matters, but in this case, Jay's question is a legit one. There are millions of people -- believers and non-believers -- who do ask how can God love unconditionally or even his creation when he destroyed the world in a flood, ordered the deaths of men, women and children and as Revelation points out, casts millions of people into the lake of fire for their transgressions (some of whom who even said they performed many works in his name).
Tpop33
Well-Known Member
I tried my best not to post, but I have to...
Kendrick, you must be a non-believer as well or a person who has many questions, otherwise why would a believer backup (for lack of a better word) a non-believer.
If you've read the Bible and have any faith at all, then what JayRob says would not be a "legit" question at least not in the sense that JayRob is asking it. A believer will ask the question because they are wrestling with their faith and understanding and that takes time, a non-believer will ask the question not out of faith or misunderstanding, but to prove their point and to attempt to show that the Bible is flawed or how a believer is a sheep and willing to believe anything.
The Bible tells tells us specifically that we serve a JEALOUS GOD!!! "
We cannot serve two masters, either we will hate the one and love the other or we will cling to the one and despise the other."
Now lets think about this logically, why would God allow the dregs of the underworld into His kingdom, after they have killed, stole, and destroyed everything they touched?
Or lets say JayRob day in and day out cursed God and said I dont believe in you, because you are not real or that he prayed for something and it didnt happen, so JayRob's life mission was to turn believers into non-believers, why would God want JayRob in His kingdom?
You've spent your life serving God and JayRob does nothing but still goes to Heaven... Unconditional love or not, what would be the point, everyone could do whatever they want and still go to Heaven and Heaven and death would be just as bad if not worse then being alive.
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96lioness
QUEEN LIONESS!!!
That is an excellent point!
And I'll be so glad when people realize that sometimes the best response is no response at all. It takes 2 to argue......
I'm not backing up Jay as it appears. All I'm saying is he is asking something that people over the years have been curious about. There are folks who believe in the once saved always saved mantra. There are folks who believe nobody is saved or that one can't be saved until it has been determined where they will spend (or not spend) the rest of eternity.
There are people who read the same Bibles we do yet believe the Sabbath is Saturday instead of Sunday or that Christians should observe the High Holy Days like Passover or the Day of Atonement. As we all know there are folks who believe according to their interpretation of the Bible that women shouldn't be pastors or bishops. And there are those who believe, according to their interpretation of the Bible, that women can preach. And there are people who believe there is a rapture and folks who believe there isn't a rapture.
All of them seem to be believers, but interpret scripture differently. Does that mean they have a lack of faith or are non-believers?
Personally, I believe that it is great people have questions about the Bible and many different things as it relates to religion.The problem comes in where individuals attempt to use their own logic and determinations to answer some of these questions instead of relying on scripture like that cat who said the world was going to end this summer. Now, Dacon does a wonderful job of explaining certain questions using scripture. I've asked him some questions when I wasn't clear about a few things. Our own actions also can place some doubt in the minds of many believers. Heck, we all know people who have been "saved" (some church leaders) and don't live a lifestyle that reflects that. And it confuses the crap out of people.
I'm not saying Jay is right or wrong. When dealing with the Bible we make it sometimes difficult for folks to understand because on occasion we don't do enough investigation and research ourselves and just rely on what our pastors say. Overall would should always be ready to answer questions or whatever.
dacontinent
Preacher
I think Tpop33 answered this very well already. I also appreciate sharing with you here and in PM's. As for JayRob, I have had to take a real objective look at my interactions with him. Ultimately, the place I landed was Proverbs 26:4-5. It is clear that JayRob's position relative to the Scriptures is one of contempt. I would respond to him very differently if he actually had a question to resolve in his mind. He doesn't; so, I'll not waste my time, your attention, or space on the file system with any more elaborate explanations of the Scriptures that he doesn't want to know about. I will certainly grant him that level of respect.
I will continue to do my best to supply answers to legitimate inquiries. That feeds the process of me remaining teachable. I have answered the question of God's unconditional love multiple times in these threads over the years. Tpop33 gave a superb response. If it is deemed inadequate to someone with legitimate interest, I am sure that we will discuss it further.
JayRob
TigaPaw
Tpop33 [QUOTE said:
What Kendrick stated makes much sense. The reason you had to post is because it shed light on how violent and deadly the fictional biblical god has shown himself to be in his OWN words.
Why does he have to be a non-believer to speak on what's clearly written in black and white? Just because he disagrees with your opinion of what the biblical god portrays himself to be doesn't make him a non-believer. It makes him honest and objective.....in this case.
So you can read my mind? I simply quoted exact words and phrases from the bible, yet I'm doing it to disprove it? I did it to prove how violent and deadly the supposed "god of love" mentioned in the bible has shown himself to be.
You seem to have blinders on when it comes to such a conclusion.
Billions of people can die simply because they refuse to believe, yet you seem to have no problem with it. This alone speaks volumes about your beliefs. Some folks can't wait until the billions die off just so their beloved Jesus can return, then again, most don't even understand what's in the bible, but they go on believing it as if they did.
Can some "believers" be objective enough to ask the questions Kendrick asked? There should be some, however from what I've seen, for most fundamentalist Christians, it's almost impossible for them to objectively ask the difficult questions put forth by Kendrick for fear that they've committed the unpardonable sin or might get struck down by lightning. That's how fearful they are of their own so-called "loving" god.
By the way, the bible is very flawed, especially when it comes to the book of Revelation. If it wasn't, humanity could look forward to billions of people dying, perhaps within our lifetime and for what? Simply because they didn't believe in a god who practiced racism, genocide, gender biases, who ordered the deaths of innocent babies and children?
The god of the bible is the most violent god I've ever read about, hands down.
I thought it was a sin to be jealous. Isn't that one of the sins of the flesh? If so, why is it okay for your god to practice it, but he condemns others for such practices?
Why does there have to be a "master" in the first place, especially one who practices slavery, genocide and racism, but has the nerve to kill and condemn billions of others to an eternal hellfire who follow after his example by doing the same thing?
One can practice love and respect without the bible and certainly without making it okay for fathers to be able to sell their daughter to their rapist. See Deuteronomy if you don't believe me.
Thinking logically while quoting from the bible is an oxymoron if I've ever seen it.
Who created mankind? Who made it okay to steal land while others occupied it? Who made it okay to practice racism? Who made it okay to practice slavery? Who made it okay to kill babies? Who made it okay to kill off whole populations just so his people could steal land and take women as sex slaves? Who made it okay to make women second...no, third class citizens who couldn't own land? Who made it okay for fathers to be able to sell their daughter to her rapist for money? I'll tell you who made it okay. It was the god of the bible, that's who. If you don't believe me, I certainly don't mind supporting the above with biblical verses.
Why would JayRob want to be part of a kingdom that has as it's ruler a god who sanctioned the above atrocities and evils? Why would I want to take part in a kingdom whose leader promises to burn humans forever....yes, FOREVER, in a burning hell fire simply because they refused to follow his rules? Nevermind the atrocities sanctioned by such a god, but the threat of hellfire alone should be reason enough to question the sanity of such a god.
Burning in hellfire for all eternity for only 70 years of sinning?! How just is that? That's not justice at all, nowhere near it.
And how could a mother sing praises to such a god for all eternity, while knowing in the back of her mind that her son is somewhere burning for all eternity and the one she's singing praises to is responsible for it? Please tell me how.
So your purpose for obeying is to GET something? Why not practice love for the sake of love? Why practice obedience to such a god simply because he promises to give you something for it? Why not practice love and respect without the threats of eternal burning in a hellfire? Millions do it every day without giving it a second thought and certainly not to GET something for it.
If anyone is to blame for man's sins, it's the god of the bible simply because he allowed Satan into the garden of Eden and he created the being who turned into Satan.
If there was no Satan, there'd be no sin.
Now chalk this up to a Sunday lesson that you've never heard before free of charge.
JayRob
TigaPaw
It also takes two to LEARN something they don't have a clue about. I can almost guarantee that you didn't know half the stuff that's been revealed about the bible by your's truly.
It probably wouldn't matter any how just so long as you make it to heaven and are able to sing praises for all eternity to the biblical god, while billions are burning in an eternal hellfire for all eternity.
Most folks who claim a belief in the biblical god don't have a clue about what's in the bible. They simply believe and accept what influential adults in their life make claim about the bible and they're merely following in their footsteps.
They have no idea that the biblical god sanctioned racism, genocide, slavery, sex slaves, gender inequity and so much more evils that's clearly outlined in the bible. If they did, I wonder if they'd still consider him to be a god of "unconditional" love.
JayRob
TigaPaw
Kendrick, eventhough your last statements make much sense, there are some on here who'd rather stick their head in the sand and run from sincere questions asked of anyone whose not a believer, rather than trying to answer them. Perhaps it's because they don't have the answers themselves.
As for me, I welcome ANY question a "believer" may have that's biblically related.
JayRob
TigaPaw
Dacon please. The ONLY reason you've chosen to respond as you have on many an occasion is because your fellow ministerial colleagues or Christians have encouraged you not too.
Many of those same folks literally run from sincere questions I've had, then they decide to use the scripture to justify their running from legitimate questions simply because it would condemn their god if they honestly answered them, so they'd rather ignore them and discourage others as well.
One question was: "how could one prove that the biblical god is the one true god?" That's a sincere question, yet not one of your colleagues has dared to even try to answer the question, eventhough it's been asked several times.
Another question is: "how can a god of love justify allowing an Israelite father to be able to sell his daughter to her rapist?" Not one person dared touch that question, not even some of the women.
Seems that they'd hope it would go away, but according to the bible, not one jot or tittle of it will.
Again Dacon, I know for a fact that you were encouraged and practically chastised by fellow colleagues for eterntaining questions the apostle Paul would seemingly loved to have answered and discussed in detail. I guess Christians aren't what they used to be.
dacontinent
Preacher
I guess I had better speak up for myself without allowing this to get personal. Suffice it to say that I was responding to these questions for 4 years BEFORE you joined TSPN. Apologetics is my life and that was the case BEFORE I knew this board existed.
Christians aren't what we used to be ... we're better, as we should be.
Tpop33
Well-Known Member
You know JR, the reason no one answers your questions, is not because they are scared or don't know, they just get tired of answering, only to have you debate them on that topic, and when the answer is not to your satisfaction you come up with another question. Also you state that the Bible is flawed, but some of your post refuting the Bible are filled with flawed logic, case in point the original topic of this post, you state it as though it is fact, but the Bible does not mention specific numbers and we have no clue what the population will be as that time, but you say 90% or so many billions have to die as though it is fact. You also stated (conceitedly by the way) that a poster probably learned more about the Bible based on your posts. You have no clue what another person knows or doesn't know, so don't insult their intelligence Biblical or otherwise, (you'll probably say that if it's not true then they wouldn't be insulted, which is a child like response).
Christians are better than what they used to be and more, because we have people like you strengthening us, and making sure we "Study to show thyself approved..." as well as going to God in prayer before we answer your questions.
So your banter serves a dual purpose. Thanks :tup::tup::tup:
JayRob
TigaPaw
As far as biblical knowledge is concerned, most Christians don't know half of what's in the Old Testament. As a minister, I think you already know this. Christians are more divided today than ever. There are at least 31,000 separate denominations in the religion and the division is growing.
If Christians were better than they once were, why is crime growing rampant in mostly "Christian" nations? Why are there more murders if Christians have gotten better? Why is there more division and backstabbing in churches? Why are there more sexual scandals in the churches today? I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.
As a religion, Christianity seems to be failing at it's mission of bringing people to happy lives of living by the 10 commandments and lessening division amongst it's ranks. The religion is more divided than it's ever been and it's getting worse.
JayRob
TigaPaw
Tpop33 [QUOTE said:
If one is confident in his/her knowledge of the bible, why would there be an issue about me asking simple questions, questions that are logical and to an extent sincere?
If the answers are flawed and wrong, don't I have a duty to call it into question or would it be better to just ignore the wrong answer for the sake of not wanting to offend anyone? What do you think?
If I misquoted a verse in the bible, wouldn't it be your duty to correct me on it?
Do you not see any flaws in the writings and sayings of the bible or is it totally logical and everything in it provable? I'm not one to just accept what a minister tells me anymore because I know better now.
.
Based on the content in Revelation and other verses related, it clearly talks about the number of deaths in fractional terms, that can be estimated with no problem. I've attempted to do that that.
If you have something that's more concrete, please feel free to post.
Where in my previous posts have I miscalculated? Fact of the matter is that the entire book of Revelation, when the number of potential deaths are combined, most of humanity is scheduled to be killed off. Can you find it written in the pages of the bible that this won't happen?
Do you have a clue that I was being conceited when I made the statement? No, you don't. That's just your opinion. I based my statements on the comments and posts of others.
Many didn't know that in the Old Testament, the bible gave fathers permission to sell their daughters to their rapist. Many didn't know that the bible made claim that the sun had stopped. Many didn't know that there's not one shred of evidence proving that "the exodus" actually occurred. Many still don't know that the biblical god gave Israelite men the "okay" to kill off men, women, children and babies, however they could keep the virgins for themselves.
So, yes, many have learned something they didn't know about the Old Testament by reading my posts. This has nothing to do with conceit, it has to do with reading what some have failed to read. It's as simple as that. Some folks don't want to admit the many atrocities, deaths, rape, pillaging, genocide, racism and stealing of land that's mentioned in the Old Testament by a so-called "god of love". I simply have chosen to reveal what's in the Old Testament.
I tend to disagree. If Christians were "better", why is there more division amongst your ranks than has ever been before? Doesn't your god make claim that a house divided against itself cannot stand? If this is the case, then Christianity is failing miserably. The evidence is there for all to see.
As far as going to your god in prayer, all one has to do is read the bible. There's no need for help in comprehending simple terminology.
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I have read these posts since I joined the board and never commented until now. My fellow believers, please quit arguing with this man over the word of God. As Cee pointed out, he has an agenda that Satan is pleased with. The bible warns us of situations like this. There will be those who do not believe and as Christians, we have to accept that everyone will not believe. We have the faith and the will to believe the word of God because of our personal relationships with God and because of how the word has worked in our lives individually. If he was asking questions because he truly wanted to believe, then he would pray and ask God for clarity of the Holy Spirit in his life. However, his posts are creating confusion (which comes from the Devil) particulary amongst those who may read this and be struggling with their faith. As a result, I am just going to pray for all non-believers and believers, TSPN related or not, rather than continue to read or respond to anymore of these blasphemy posts. I know the God that I serve and he does not need any explanation from someone who obviously despises him. Those who have questions typically have not fully submitted themselves to the word of God nor have they worked on their personal relationship with God. I know you will have a response Jay Rob, but if I was you I would not waste my time in writing it because I refuse to respond. I will pray for you my brother.
dacontinent
Preacher
Christianity is not a religion; it is a way of life that emulates the walk of Christ. It has not changed since the first century. Methodism, Baptists, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anabaptist, Word of Faith, Atheism, Agnosticism, Church Of God, PAW, COGIC, AG,... DENOMENATIONS are religions. Read the New Testament and know that all of that stuff that was written about immorality, infidelity, gossip, lying, backbiting, strife, etc., was directed to Christians. Is the rate of these incidents greater or lower today? Is it a matter that information today is just delivered more quickly and distributed more easily to a broader audience? I don't think any human knows the answer to those questions. What we do know is that Christians have the life of Christ (Chief Cornerstone) and thousands of years of experiences of those who have gone before us to give us a much better vantage point to do the work of the Kingdom than our predecessors. That makes us better: the lives of others. Most certainly, the opposition is greater as we get nearer the end of this dispensation.
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JayRob
TigaPaw
Why do my comments have to be from a "devil"?
Why couldn't it just be me looking at the bible for what it is, a book riddled with untrue history, false scientific statements, unfulfilled prophecies, plagiarized stories and characters from previous religions? Even the Catholic church has finally admitted that the bible plagiarized many of it's characteristics and stole them from previous religions. Why would they lie on themselves? Some would rather ignore that and go on believing in fairytales.
Well....they have that right and I support it wholeheartedly.
Why couldn't it be that I've studied the prophecies of the bible and found them to be false?
Why couldn't it be that I've looked at the historical writings of the bible and found most of them to be untrue and flawed?
Why is it that some Christians are so afraid to talk about the flaws in the bible? Some would just rather take it on faith without knowing an inkling of what's in the book they've promised to stake their life on?
I'll tell you why. It's because they fear that what I've stated is just MIGHT be accurate and true....IF they'd only have the objectivity to take a look into it, but most want for fear of what they'll find.
I didn't order innocent men, women, little girls and boys to be slaughtered. The god of the Old Testament did.
I didn't make it okay for fathers to be able to sell their daughters to their rapist. The god of the Old Testament did.
I didn't order my people to steal land that was occupied by others by killing off every man, woman, child and beast who were already living on the land. The god of the bible did.
It amazes me that some Christians don't even dare touch this subject, but have the nerve to call people like me, devils and demons.
If one is going to be consistent, just and objective when passing judgement and name-calling, what do you call the god of the bible who ordered the above atrocities? If you'll call me a devil or demon, yet I've not killed off one human, what would you call the "being" whose purported to have killed millions upon millions in a book supposedly inspired by him? What do you label him as being? Nevermind the fact that he's promised to kill off many times over the number he killed off in the Old Testament. According to his word, we "ain't" seen nothing yet. He's promised and prophesied to kill off billions in the near future? What do you call this kind of a "being"?
As far as love is concerned, I have love in my heart for mankind and I don't need a bible for that. It comes through years of living and seeing which way brings happiness and satisfaction. I don't need a religion for that.
One more thing to think on, if the Christian religion were so powerful and uplifting, why are the so-called Christian nations the most violent and crime ridden nations on the planet? Why is the Christian religion the most divided religion on the planet? I'll tell you why. It's because it doesn't work and never will.
If I believed every word of the bible, then I'd have to believe the words of the Old Testament which is full of violence, evil, genocide, racism, gender prejudice, murder, theft, lies and deception. I'd have to honor the god who practiced such nonsense. Why would I do something like that if I were an honest and just human being? Why wouldn't I condemn such behavior?
On top of that, I'd have to believe in a New Testament god who promises to burn every human who refuses to bow down to him, and those who've NOT practiced the many atrocities he practiced in the Old Testament. If I practiced the kinds of behaviors he did in the Old Testament, he promises to burn me up forever and ever. What happens to him for HIS atrocities? Nothing, I guess. He gets the praise and worship from those humans who could care less how many people he's killed off just as long as they get their share of a seat in heaven. If that's not selfishness and greed, I don't know what is.
Thank goodness all of this is fictional. I wouldn't wish any of it on my worst enemies, to be burned in scorching fire forever and ever and ever. This is what has been promised by a so-called "loving" god.
JayRob
TigaPaw
It's apparent that you're in the minority, who don't consider Christianity not to be a religion. All religions practice a certain way of life as it's outlined in the writings of said religion.
I understand that it's hard for you to grasp the fact that Christianity, as a religion, has not succeeded in bringing people together in love. As a matter of fact, it's done just the opposite. Just look at the evidence outlined in history when it comes to the religion itself.
One need only look at the many divisions within it's own ranks. One need only look at the division, death, violence, atrocities the religion has towards other religions, especially the religion of Islam.
Look at the many deaths many have practiced in the name of religion, thinking they were doing their god a favor by committing such violent acts.
If it was left up to me, I'd eradicate all religions off the face of the planet and would encourage people to live lives of love and respect for their fellow man. To heck with trying to live a life where one is promised a place in a heaven if he or she follows the error-filled teachings of fictional stories filled with all sorts of human pain and suffering.
Humanity wouldn't be perfect, but it would surely be much, much better off.
dacontinent
Preacher
I have been in the minority all of my life. I am comfortable there.
If you read the Bible, you know that Christianity will never bring people together in love. Many will die and spend eternity in hell (which was the original point of this thread).
The trouble with your eradication plan is that it requires the annihilation of all of humanity - including yourself. That would make you far worse than than the God of the Bible that you so vehemently abhor.