Death and when does man go to heaven or hell

[dacontinent]

So JUST believing will get one salvation? According to James, you're mistaken.

James 2:14, What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
verses 18-19....But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

verse 20....You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]?
verse 22....You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

James says even the demons believe, but does that give them eternal life?

It appears that you don't understand that this passage is not referring to salvation (eternal redemption of the soul) at all. It is talking about the life of a person after his redemption and how it should affect others as well as himself.

It is when you post things after this manner that your lack of redemption and indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes flooding forward.

 

[dacontinent]

At least you give me credit for not being confused.

On the other hand, if you translate my being honest about the many biblical errors, unfulfilled prophecies, inaccurate history, plagiarisms and false scientific statements as having enmity against the bible, then so be it. I'd rather hold on to something I know to be accurate and truthful than someone's inaccurate opinion of me.

:topic: If your religion helps you cope with the daily stressors in life and overcome yourself, then use it as that tool.
Just don't tell me that something's true just because it's in the bible, because it's not.

The Person with whom you have enmity is He whose opinion you find inaccurate. He does not have a TSPN userid.

 

[JayRob]

It appears that you don't understand that this passage is not referring to salvation (eternal redemption of the soul) at all. It is talking about the life of a person after his redemption and how it should affect others as well as himself.

It is when you post things after this manner that your lack of redemption and indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes flooding forward.

Dacon, the verses are referring to salvation. James 2:14 says it does. "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
If faith is all there is to it, then James wouldn't have stated that it takes both faith AND works.

It says the demons have faith, but will that save them? No.
It's amazing that the simplest of verses trip folks up who claim to have "special" powers.

 

[JayRob]

The Person with whom you have enmity is He whose opinion you find inaccurate. He does not have a TSPN userid.

The only opinion I find inaccurate are the men who wrote the pages of the bible that are filled with man-made errors and inaccuracies.

 

[dacontinent]

Dacon, the verses are referring to salvation. James 2:14 says it does. "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
If faith is all there is to it, then James wouldn't have stated that it takes both faith AND works.

It says the demons have faith, but will that save them? No.
It's amazing that the simplest of verses trip folks up who claim to have "special" powers.

If you would have just read the verses that followed (context), there is a possibility that you would have understood which of the meanings of sozo was given in 2:14. As intelligent as you are, there is a possibility that you would have grasped it. Alas, you did not. It is my guess (meaning I could be wrong) that instead of wanting to know the truth of what is written, you decided to apply your thinking to it instead, reaching the incorrect conclusion.

James never said that you needed more than faith to receive salvation. What he said was that salvation through faith causes the true believer to take action. The empowerment and enablement of the spirit is not for lying on the sofa eating bon bons; rather it is for going into all of the world to demonstrate the power of God.

You're not far off. If you yield to Christ, you will surely make-up ground quickly. Come on, bruh...tell Him "yes".

 

[JayRob]

If you would have just read the verses that followed (context), there is a possibility that you would have understood which of the meanings of sozo was given in 2:14. As intelligent as you are, there is a possibility that you would have grasped it. Alas, you did not. It is my guess (meaning I could be wrong) that instead of wanting to know the truth of what is written, you decided to apply your thinking to it instead, reaching the incorrect conclusion.

James never said that you needed more than faith to receive salvation. What he said was that salvation through faith causes the true believer to take action. The empowerment and enablement of the spirit is not for lying on the sofa eating bon bons; rather it is for going into all of the world to demonstrate the power of God.

You're not far off. If you yield to Christ, you will surely make-up ground quickly. Come on, bruh...tell Him "yes".

You went all the way around the world to say virtually the same thing I just said, that faith without works is dead. If you can't understand the simple terminology in James, then I don't know what else to say.

Aren't you the very same person who claimed that a deathbed repentance is valid? If that's the case, then just believing will save one. If that was the case, why did James give the example of demons having faith if faith was all there was to it? Faith alone is not all there is to it.

Paul says that faith alone saves, whereas James says otherwise. This is more biblical contradiction and by whom? Two leaders of the early church. One is teaching faith alone and the other is teaching faith and works for salvation.
And please don't use the same excuse that I don't understand, because I do. Both Paul and James are contradicting each other. I'll side with James on this one.

If works were of no consequence, why did the Jesus character compliment the church in Ephesus for their good works? If works wasn't important, along with faith, why did he mention the good deeds of this church?
it seems that James must be right or else there would be no need for the "works and deeds" of the church at Ephesus to have been mentioned in the first place.

Revelation 2:1-3. To the angel[a] of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

If works wasn't important, the Jesus character wouldn't have commanded his followers to let their light shine that men may see their "good works".
Matthew 5:16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Nor would he have made a promise to call those who teach others to not have works, the LEAST in his kingdom.
Matthew 5:19-20. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Righteousness requires "works". Teaching folks that they don't need works and that faith alone will save them will give one the title of "least in the kingdom", according to the Jesus figure.

Jesus even had works as noted. John 4:34. Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

I learned all of this without a holy spirit having to tell me any of it.

 

[dacontinent]

You went all the way around the world to say virtually the same thing I just said, that faith without works is dead. If you can't understand the simple terminology in James, then I don't know what else to say.

No, sir. What you said was that there is no salvation without works.

Aren't you the very same person who claimed that a deathbed repentance is valid? If that's the case, then just believing will save one. If that was the case, why did James give the example of demons having faith if faith was all there was to it? Faith alone is not all there is to it.

I still claim that deathbed repentence is valid. I am also the same guy who said that it is a stupid risk to take since one does not know whether he will have a deathbed at all.

Paul says that faith alone saves, whereas James says otherwise. This is more biblical contradiction and by whom? Two leaders of the early church. One is teaching faith alone and the other is teaching faith and works for salvation.
And please don't use the same excuse that I don't understand, because I do. Both Paul and James are contradicting each other. I'll side with James on this one.

Your mistake is that you contend that James is teaching salvation by something more than faith.

sozo is used 5 times in James and it does not mean the same thing each time it is used. I pointed that out to you in an earlier post, but you have not commented on it in your subsequent replies. You can't say that you don't know because I already told you that. Therefore, we must conclude that you either don't understand the scriptures or you have chosen conjecture for some purpose beyond your ability to objectively reason.

Paul says that we are not saved by works: there is nothing that we can do to earn our salvation. We have been saved by the blood of Christ and we accept His sacrificial atonement by faith. Paul also teaches that we must repent. On the other hand, James is telling his readers about being lazy AFTER they have received salvation.

If works were of no consequence, why did the Jesus character compliment the church in Ephesus for their good works? If works wasn't important, along with faith, why did he mention the good deeds of this church?
it seems that James must be right or else there would be no need for the "works and deeds" of the church at Ephesus to have been mentioned in the first place.

Revelation 2:1-3. To the angel[a] of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

If works wasn't important, the Jesus character wouldn't have commanded his followers to let their light shine that men may see their "good works".
Matthew 5:16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Nor would he have made a promise to call those who teach others to not have works, the LEAST in his kingdom.
Matthew 5:19-20. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Righteousness requires "works". Teaching folks that they don't need works and that faith alone will save them will give one the title of "least in the kingdom", according to the Jesus figure.
Jesus even had works as noted. John 4:34. Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

I learned all of this without a holy spirit having to tell me any of it.

Without the Holy Spirit you missed:

• Works are of a consequence to the Church, but of no consequence for the sinner. That is why James addresses the Church in his epistle and why Jesus addresses the church at Ephesus in revelation.
• Those saved who have works will have a greater status that least in accordance with their works.
• Sinners (those without salvation) will be OUT of the kingdom of heaven, while those without works will be the least IN the kingdom.
• The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees will cause them to be less than the least IN the kingdom of heaven: => the scribes and Pharisees will be OUT of the kingdom.
• The teachings of Jesus, Paul, and James are Scripturally synchronous.

...for starters.

 

[JayRob]

No, sir. What you said was that there is no salvation without works.

James 2:17 says that faith without works is dead. What part of that is so difficult to understand? The term "works" in the Greek is "ergon" #G2041.
In James 2:18, works is "ergon". It's the same in verse 20, verse 21, 22, 24 and verse 26. In every verse, "ergon" means the same thing.....works.
And it's mighty interesting that you didn't mention the verses quoted by the Jesus character on works that was listed. He clearly indicated that keeping the commandments are a requirement for salvation.
Even John 14:15 says, "if ye love me, keep my commandments". What's so hard for one to understand about that? If you don't keep the commandments, you don't love Jesus. It's as simple as that.

I still claim that deathbed repentence is valid. I am also the same guy who said that it is a stupid risk to take since one does not know whether he will have a deathbed at all.

You're good at making claims, but when it's time to support those claims, you often come up short.

Your mistake is that you contend that James is teaching salvation by something more than faith.

Yes, James clearly confirms it, so why don't you believe him? You claim that Paul says something else, so you believe him. Perhaps you're letting your denominational biases get in the way of simple verses.
Paul actually says the same as James, that both faith and works are required for salvation.

sozo is used 5 times in James and it does not mean the same thing each time it is used. I pointed that out to you in an earlier post, but you have not commented on it in your subsequent replies. You can't say that you don't know because I already told you that. Therefore, we must conclude that you either don't understand the scriptures or you have chosen conjecture for some purpose beyond your ability to objectively reason.

What does sozo have to do with anything? We're talking about faith and works here. It's already been pointed out that ergon is the same word and has the same meaning throughout James 2, and it means "works" and action.
If "sozo" is so important to you, post what it means in Greek and show how it does away with the term "ergon".

Paul says that we are not saved by works: there is nothing that we can do to earn our salvation. We have been saved by the blood of Christ and we accept His sacrificial atonement by faith. Paul also teaches that we must repent. On the other hand, James is telling his readers about being lazy AFTER they have received salvation.

Like I said, you believe Paul, but you don't believe James. James in chapter 2 gave examples of faith and works working together on a spiritual level. You claimed that he was only talking about works in the form of getting a job and making ends meet. That's not accurate at all.

James 2:21 says, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"
James 2:24, says, " Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
James 2:26, says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Without the Holy Spirit you missed:

Here we go again with a baseless excuse. I don't need a holy spirit to understand the book of James.

[*]Works are of a consequence to the Church, but of no consequence for the sinner. That is why James addresses the Church in his epistle and why Jesus addresses the church at Ephesus in revelation.

Works are of a consequence to the church? You stated earlier that works is of no consequence when it comes to salvation. Which is it?

[*]Those saved who have works will have a greater status that least in accordance with their works.

So, if there are no works, then will one still be saved? There goes your deathbed repentance theory out the window.

Sinners (those without salvation) will be OUT of the kingdom of heaven, while those without works will be the least IN the kingdom.

You didn't even fully quote the verse properly. Matthew 5:19 says, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

There are degrees of works that are mentioned in Matthew 5. Every person's "quality" of works isn't the same. Works will also help determine one's ranking or authority in that kingdom, BUT it's still required in order for one to make it into that kingdom in the first place.

[*]The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees will cause them to be less than the least IN the kingdom of heaven: => the scribes and Pharisees will be OUT of the kingdom.

They'll be out because they didn't mix faith with their works. They had one and not the other, which was faith. They didn't believe that the Jesus character was the messiah.

[*]The teachings of Jesus, Paul, and James are Scripturally synchronous.

They are, but not in the way you describe it. Jesus and James teach obedience to the law as part of salvation. Paul teaches the same thing, that works ARE required for salvation.
In some verses, Paul teaches faith alone, but when you look at other chapters and verses supposedly written by Paul, you'd see that he teaches that works are a necessity as well. When those chapters and verses are put together, they clearly show that Paul teaches that both faith and works are required for salvation.

Romans 6 is a prime example, as well as Romans 7. Romans 7:25 says, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Paul clearly stated that he serves the law. In short, he obeys the law. Without such obedience, there's no salvation.

Now if I was a Baptist minister, I'd charge you for the above information, but since I'm not, I'll let it go for free.

 

[dacontinent]

...
What does sozo have to do with anything? We're talking about faith and works here. It's already been pointed out that ergon is the same word and has the same meaning throughout James 2, and it means "works" and action.
If "sozo" is so important to you, post what it means in Greek and show how it does away with the term "ergon".
...

My mistake. I thought we were talking about salvation - sozo - what is necessary for a sinner to receive salvation ... and help - sozo - what tangible needs people have in their lives ... and preservation - sozo - what is needed in order for one to be sustained naturally and/or spiritually. James uses all three concepts of sozo.

The fact that you don't understand this shows that you don't know or choose to ignore what James is talking about.


James, Paul, and Jesus all agree. You and I do not. I believe and teach the text. What do you believe and teach?

...
Now if I was a Baptist minister, I'd charge you for the above information, but since I'm not, I'll let it go for free.

If you tried teaching that in any decent baptist church, they would interrupt you in the middle, take away your credentials, and show you the door.

 

[JayRob]

My mistake. I thought we were talking about salvation - sozo - what is necessary for a sinner to receive salvation ... and help - sozo - what tangible needs people have in their lives ... and preservation - sozo - what is needed in order for one to be sustained naturally and/or spiritually. James uses all three concepts of sozo.

The fact that you don't understand this shows that you don't know or choose to ignore what James is talking about.

Why don't you post the verses that this word "sozo" is used in? It shouldn't be that difficult. The same word Christ used for works, which was "ergon", is the same word James uses for works.
I posted the verses, now post yours.

James, Paul, and Jesus all agree. You and I do not. I believe and teach the text. What do you believe and teach?

I hand-delivered you verses and quotes from Jesus, Paul and James showing that all three taught that faith without works is useless faith. You can continue to ignore those verses as long as you please.
I challenge you to explain each of the verses I posted and tell me how works is not a requirement for salvation.

If you tried teaching that in any decent baptist church, they would interrupt you in the middle, take away your credentials, and show you the door.

I already know this, so those that teach the doctrine that all it takes is faith are just as mixed up as you are. Plus they'd be lying on Jesus, Paul and James. They'd be the least in the kingdom and you'd be right along with them because you're saying that obedience isn't required for salvation.

In Revelation chapters 2-3, Jesus says to each of the seven churches what? I know thy works (ergon). Why would he claim to know their works if there weren't any works required for salvation?
Why would Jesus say that loving him is "keeping his commandments" if works wasn't required?

Revelation 2:26. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Jesus clearly promises rewards for those who have works. You and those Baptists you mentioned are teaching just the opposite, that works are not required for salvaton.

Not one time have you posted the verses given and shown that they were taken out of context. You merely give an opinion and try and ignore them, hoping I don't bring them back up, but I will bring them back up.

--John 14:15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.
--Romans 6 is a prime example, as well as Romans 7.
--Romans 7:25 says, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
--James 2:21 says, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"
--James 2:24, says, " Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
--James 2:26, says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Which one claims that works are not required? There are dozens more verses I could list that clearly teach that works are a requirement for salvation.

 

[dacontinent]

James wrote these:

• James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
• James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
• James 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
• James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
• James 5:20

James 2:21,24,26 - James simply says demonstrate that you have faith by what you do. These verses say NOTHING about what it takes for a sinner to receive salvation. They are directed to believers (already saved) who sit back and claim to have faith but don't do anything.

Revelation 2-3- Jesus recognizes the works of the seven churches because they ARE saved. He recognizes them for the same reason that he doesn't recognize the works of sinners: Matt 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Rev 2:26 - Rewards are promised for those works done by those who ARE saved. Those who are saved but don't have works (least IN the kingdom) will not be rewarded for works they don't have (duh). The works of those who are not saved are burned and count for nothing. The works of believers are required for REWARD but not for salvation. That is why Jesus mentions them to the CHURCHES.
John 14:15 - demonstrate your salvation by obedience.
Romans 6 & 7 - have nothing to do or say about works at all. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

It would be better for you to simply say that you don't understand and just move on. This is right up there with you claiming that Elijah was reincarnated as John the Baptist. It just cannot be chalked up to you as ignorance. This has to be something else. I will not try to label it.

 

[JayRob]

James wrote these:

[*]James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
[*]James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[*]James 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
[*]James 5:20

Where does any of the above verses negate faith and works as both being requirements for salvation? Nowhere. Seems that you just chose verses out of thin air that have little to do with the subject of faith and works. Wow!!

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

This verse has nothing to do with salvation. It's talking about praying over someone whose physically ill. It says they would be healed and whatever sins they did to cause the disease, it would be forgiven.

James 2:21,24,26 - James simply says demonstrate that you have faith by what you do. These verses say NOTHING about what it takes for a sinner to receive salvation. They are directed to believers (already saved) who sit back and claim to have faith but don't do anything.

You can continue to ignore clear verses all you please. James clearly shows that Abraham was justified not only by faith, but by his actions as well.
James 2:21 says, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

You can ignore those words all you please, but they're there for everyone to read and see for themselves.

Revelation 2-3- Jesus recognizes the works of the seven churches because they ARE saved. He recognizes them for the same reason that he doesn't recognize the works of sinners:

Seems like you're still confused. It doesn't matter who he's talking to. The subject matter is that BOTH faith and works are required regardless if the person is a believer or non-believer. Both are still required. That's the issue at hand.
If the churches didn't have works in the first place, do you think they would've been offered salvation? No. Even a person like me, without the holy spirit can see that.

Matt 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The verse still doesn't negate the fact that both faith and works are required for salvation. If the believers didn't have works, but had only faith, they still wouldn't obtain salvation.
The folks mentioned in the above verse didn't have works, so guess what? They were told to depart from Jesus.

Rev 2:26 - Rewards are promised for those works done by those who ARE saved. Those who are saved but don't have works (least IN the kingdom) will not be rewarded for works they don't have (duh). The works of those who are not saved are burned and count for nothing. The works of believers are required for REWARD but not for salvation. That is why Jesus mentions them to the CHURCHES.

So if believers have faith, but reject his commandments, they'll still be saved? Please show verses to support such a belief. Again, you're back to square one, contradicting James and Jesus.
Without a holy spirit, I still know the bible says that the wages of sin is death. Wages means works. Works has just as much to do with eternal life as does faith. Like I said, it doesn't take a holy spirit to know this much.

John 14:15 - demonstrate your salvation by obedience.

Those are your words, not the correct words of John 14:15. Jesus clearly stated, "If you love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS". Keeping the commandments has to do with works. No matter how much you try and deny this, it keeps coming back to the forefront that works are required for salvation according to the bible.
More proof that it doesn't take a holy spirit to comprehend this.

Romans 6 & 7 - have nothing to do or say about works at all. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

I posted a simple verse of Paul referring to works in Romans 7:25. It says, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
What's the law of god? They are the commandments. Paul clearly says that he serves or obeys the commandments. Clear as day. I have no idea why you claim that Romans 7 doesn't have anything to do with works. Very interesting indeed.

It would be better for you to simply say that you don't understand and just move on.

Why do I need to lie on myself? It seems to be you who doesn't understand your own bible.
I'm the one posting relevant verses. You just posted five verses that have nothing to do with supporting your viewpoint, that all that's required for salvation is merely faith.

This is right up there with you claiming that Elijah was reincarnated as John the Baptist.

I understand full well that you have to save face in front of others since you claim you have the holy spirit to teach you. I claim not to have such a spirit, but who is it that continues to struggle to find verses to support his theories? It's you.
Whether it's on the subject of faith and works or John the Baptist and Elijah, you continue to struggle finding verses to support your theory.

It just cannot be chalked up to you as ignorance. This has to be something else. I will not try to label it.

You can make hints as long as you please. If I was ignorant of the bible, I wouldn't be posting relevant verses that actually support what I'm saying. I could've posted a dozen more verses to support what I'm saying.
On the other hand and for some odd reason, every verse you posted had nothing to do with supporting your theory. Even your statements on Romans 6 and 7 was in total error. Why is that? With you claiming to have a holy spirit that's supposed to depart knowledge and biblical understanding, shouldn't it be the other way around? Yes, it should.