Will white analyst ever get with the program?


bluedog

bluedog

"Leader of Kings"
You know I really hate to take this angle but it?s so damn obvious until it?s sickening. Every time there is a Black QB that can scramble all you hear from these white analyst is how they better stop running are they are going to get killed. Hell it?s football.

There is a list longer than your arm the number of non-black QBs that were scramblers but you never get that type of response from these white analyst .

  • Joe Montana
  • Steve Young
  • John Elway
  • Archie Manning
  • Jeff Garcia
  • Brett Favre
  • Doug Flutie
  • Rich Gannon
  • Fran Tarkenton



Will they ever stop finding new ways to undermine the fact that these guys are once again changing what was the norm in football?
 
bluedog said:
You know I really hate to take this angle but it?s so damn obvious until it?s sickening. Every time there is a Black QB that can scramble all you hear from these white analyst is how they better stop running are they are going to get killed. Hell it?s football.

There is a list longer than your arm the number of non-black QBs that were scramblers but you never get that type of response from these white analyst .

  • ? Joe Montana
  • ? Steve Young
  • ? John Elway
  • ? Archie Manning
  • ? Jeff Garcia
  • ? Brett Favre
  • ? Doug Flutie
  • ? Rich Gannon



Will they ever stop finding new ways to undermine the fact that these guys are once again changing what was the norm in football?
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You're right..
but it's funny how Dan Marino and Randall Cunningham got their knees taken out---in the pocket. Steve Young got his career ended when someone didn't account for Aeneas Williams and missed a block. Where was Steve Young? He was in the pocket going into his drop and reads...

Montana wasn't known for scrambling, and Archie was said to have been running for his life. Gannon pretty much sucked until he got with coach chucky Gruden, the NFL really didn't like Flutie when he came out of BC, and Jeff Garcia is called "ugly" by the way he plays.

Bret Farve's arm got him out of a lot of jams, like Elway. Out of all those QBs you got up there, I'd put Steve Young as the best scrambler because he always seemed to look downfield regardless (and they criticized his accuracy, like they do Vick's) and Elway second.
 



East Tex Tiger said:
Do not forget about Joe Theisman. He was in the pocket when he was hit by L.T.
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Man, that isht was nasty... I watched that game (I was about 4-5 years-old) ...i had nightmares until that Thursday, jack.

Hell, if I were a QB. I'd rather scramble than stay in that pocket. You never know when your own O-lineman will get rolled into your lower leg or someone will come from the back and drive you shoulder-first into the turf (see: Pennington, Chad; Brooks, Aaron)
 
Journalist said:
You're right..
but it's funny how Dan Marino and Randall Cunningham got their knees taken out---in the pocket. Steve Young got his career ended when someone didn't account for Aeneas Williams and missed a block. Where was Steve Young? He was in the pocket going into his drop and reads...

Montana wasn't known for scrambling, and Archie was said to have been running for his life. Gannon pretty much sucked until he got with coach chucky Gruden, the NFL really didn't like Flutie when he came out of BC, and Jeff Garcia is called "ugly" by the way he plays.

Bret Farve's arm got him out of a lot of jams, like Elway. Out of all those QBs you got up there, I'd put Steve Young as the best scrambler because he always seemed to look downfield regardless (and they criticized his accuracy, like they do Vick's) and Elway second.
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Good Post,
But I will disagree with you on Joe Montana, who in my opinion was the greatest ever. Joe was a very mobile Qb in his early career at SF and of course when he was at ND. He was never the classic pocket Qb due to him only being about 6'0 and having to throw in lanes between the OL.

Also John Elway was a helluva scrambler/runner who just happened to have an arm. Brett Favre was more mobile in his early years but I agree his ability to improvise with his arm strength made him successful. Steve Young was probably the best out of the white Qbs as far as mobility then I would say Fran Tarkenton and then without question Roger Staubauch. Steve Young ended up being one of the most accurate QB's in history when he adjusted to the West Coast offense. At first he would just run. I can remember Jerry Rice being pissed at Young for always bailing out on the play when he was open down field. Montana would always wait until the last moment and release the ball.

There has always been a double standard on the black Qb vs white Qb. I can name you some more really mobile Qbs the media seems to have forgotten.
Terry Bradshaw was one. So was Brian Sipe of Cleveland. Ken Anderson of Cincy Bengals was decent. Bobby Douglass when he played for the Bears ran for 1000yards and had the Qb rushing record until Randall Cunningham broke it. Anybody remember ole short Pat Haden of the Rams who was a scrambler. The list goes on. What the media does now is say the black Qbs run alot cause they can't come out and say they think black qbs are not smart. I bet they are hating that Duante Culpepper, Steve Mc Nair and Donovan Mc Nabb are shattering the stereotype. Heck Culpepper is completing 70% of his passes this year after leading the league in completion percentage last year. One shame is that Warren Moon who was a classic pocket Qb never gets his due. He threw one of the prettiest balls I have ever seen. Go figure.
 
Don't confuse scramblers with runners. Tarkenton was the best scrambler ever. Douglass, Young, and Vick are the best runners who could throw - and all left handed. The best right-handed runners were Staubach, Cunningham, and the greatest QB of all-time: Otto Graham.

Back on the subject of the thread...I don't think there is a black/white bias in this respect as far as the analysts comments. The NFL has taken some extensive efforts to protect the QB's over the last decade. Why? Because the players at every defensive position are getting bigger faster and stronger, but QB's really have not. I know it is football, a man's game, and a collision sport; but, physics says that that the openly exposed little guys will be crushed. QB's who are not runners, should not be running - and that includes the scramblers who are not runners.
 
dacontinent said:
Don't confuse scramblers with runners. Tarkenton was the best scrambler ever. Douglass, Young, and Vick are the best runners who could throw - and all left handed. The best right-handed runners were Staubach, Cunningham, and the greatest QB of all-time: Otto Graham.

Back on the subject of the thread...I don't think there is a black/white bias in this respect as far as the analysts comments. The NFL has taken some extensive efforts to protect the QB's over the last decade. Why? Because the players at every defensive position are getting bigger faster and stronger, but QB's really have not. I know it is football, a man's game, and a collision sport; but, physics says that that the openly exposed little guys will be crushed. QB's who are not runners, should not be running - and that includes the scramblers who are not runners.
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I get where you're coming from dacontinent but I see that as giving these guys a cop-out. To scramble you have to be able to run, fast of foot, quick, etc., etc., etc.

The guys you?re talking about played in a system and were trained not to go forward but to move around in the backfield until something opens. If you recall many times they would actually run backwards in an attempt to buy more time.

So it wasn't that they couldn't run but that they trained not to for the same reason that they are using now. Think about it for a minute, I think all of us who saw these guys would agree that the coaches had a valid point at that time, but when you look at the size and the athletic ability of the QB's (scrambling) now I don't see any comparison.
 
bluedog said:
I get where you're coming from dacontinent but I see that as giving these guys a cop-out. To scramble you have to be able to run, fast of foot, quick, etc., etc., etc.
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Douglass and Young were great runners but neither of them scrambled well. To be a good scrambler one has to be able to "feel" the pressure without seeing it. Neither of them were good at that at all. However, when they were in the mode of running the ball, the did so with the vision of a tailback. Vick and Staubach did both, but they are/were still much better runners than a scramblers. Bob Griese was probably second to Tarkenton in the scrambling department, but was a terrible runner.

bluedog said:
The guys you?re talking about played in a system and were trained not to go forward but to move around in the backfield until something opens. If you recall many times they would actually run backwards in an attempt to buy more time.
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Agreed. That is the mode of a classic scrambler. Doug Flutie and John Elway are also in this category. Joe Montana & Terry Bradshaw are not; they were sprint-out guy so they could see downfield and open up the passing lanes.

bluedog said:
So it wasn't that they couldn't run but that they trained not to for the same reason that they are using now. Think about it for a minute, I think all of us who saw these guys would agree that the coaches had a valid point at that time, but when you look at the size and the athletic ability of the QB's (scrambling) now I don't see any comparison.
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This is where we differ. THE AVERAGE SIZE of NFL QB's is smaller now than in any of the previous 4 decades. Yes, there are some big boys out there, but the AVERAGE guy has gotten smaller. Yes, foot speed is up, but durability is down - having mostly to do with diet and the chemicals used in their production. However, there are no 150 lb. cornerbacks any more. Safeties push 250; linebackers 270; D-line goes 300-325 (with an occasional 400 freak thrown in); and the O-line guys who are falling backwards on top of these guys go 300-350. With the pay of starting QB's going through the roof such that the availability of quality backups putting teams in serious jeopardy when losing a starter, when my QB takes off I turn my head and listen for the crowd response.
 
Bluedog,
I was just discussing the exact same thing with my husband over the weekend. It seems that Vick?s phat contract has brought even more green out of the ?washed up? announcer set than usually comes his way (and that?s a lot). The bottom line is that these announcers cannot acknowledge Vick?s supremacy without seeming to downplay other QB?s (namely white ones). And despite what my favorite drug addict said, ?The media is ?NOT? Desirous to have a black QB succeed?. All that aside what really burns me is when they all (except the FOX announcers) felt the need to assert that Peyton Manning is far more deserving of his contract than Vick is deserving of his. Peyton Manning has been in the league at least twice as long and STILL does not have a ring. Without a ring all is game (& Manning even got exposed by the Texans of all teams). And with that let me say that I think Manning is an awesome QB he?s done things I thought were impossible. But the comparison is not sound. Now if these same announcers were saying that Brady deserved more money I?d be onboard (who can argue with two rings in three years) but Brady gets little respect. The bottom line is that McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, Brooks etc. have shown these announcers the future and what they see is far fewer white QB?s and to them that is ?un-desirous?. In a few years the game is going to be too fast for the majority of white QB?s to keep up with?.in speed it?s going to look like BCF. The white guys will have to become complete athletes too not just pocket standing, knee hit career ending, QB?s like twenty or thirty years ago. That ?purest? argument makes me sick. Yes, in the days of old before the advent and mass use of the forward pass, standing in the pocket was good. BUT The game has changed! Everyone in every position is faster and stronger and for these people to be reluctant to see that in a QB is dangerous. Today, you better be able to get away (and make something good happen) or you?ll be wheeled away.

:cool:
~Astrya
 
Most of the commentators feel the way GR feels about Vick. Vick is not worth the money they paid him for his poor QBing skills, but he is worth it because he does but people in the seats. The guy cant hit the side of a barn with the ball, but at least he can run fast.

He will never see the back end of that contract, but its good the brother got 37 million in his hands already. So more power to him. Heck, even though GR is not a Vick fan, Vick has just as many playoff wins as Peyton and Vick has only played 1 full season at QB. Vick is the 26th rated QB as far as passer ratings go, but the bottom line is, his team is winning. The Falcons better keep a good defense.
 
Stormy said:
Bluedog,
I was just discussing the exact same thing with my husband over the weekend. It seems that Vick?s phat contract has brought even more green out of the ?washed up? announcer set than usually comes his way (and that?s a lot). The bottom line is that these announcers cannot acknowledge Vick?s supremacy without seeming to downplay other QB?s (namely white ones). And despite what my favorite drug addict said, ?The media is ?NOT? Desirous to have a black QB succeed?. All that aside what really burns me is when they all (except the FOX announcers) felt the need to assert that Peyton Manning is far more deserving of his contract than Vick is deserving of his. Peyton Manning has been in the league at least twice as long and STILL does not have a ring. Without a ring all is game (& Manning even got exposed by the Texans of all teams). And with that let me say that I think Manning is an awesome QB he?s done things I thought were impossible. But the comparison is not sound. Now if these same announcers were saying that Brady deserved more money I?d be onboard (who can argue with two rings in three years) but Brady gets little respect. The bottom line is that McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, Brooks etc. have shown these announcers the future and what they see is far fewer white QB?s and to them that is ?un-desirous?. In a few years the game is going to be too fast for the majority of white QB?s to keep up with?.in speed it?s going to look like BCF. The white guys will have to become complete athletes too not just pocket standing, knee hit career ending, QB?s like twenty or thirty years ago. That ?purest? argument makes me sick. Yes, in the days of old before the advent and mass use of the forward pass, standing in the pocket was good. BUT The game has changed! Everyone in every position is faster and stronger and for these people to be reluctant to see that in a QB is dangerous. Today, you better be able to get away (and make something good happen) or you?ll be wheeled away.

:cool:
~Astrya
Click to expand...

Damn good comment! :tup: :bowdown:
 
Stormy said:
Bluedog,
I was just discussing the exact same thing with my husband over the weekend. It seems that Vick?s phat contract has brought even more green out of the ?washed up? announcer set than usually comes his way (and that?s a lot). The bottom line is that these announcers cannot acknowledge Vick?s supremacy without seeming to downplay other QB?s (namely white ones). And despite what my favorite drug addict said, ?The media is ?NOT? Desirous to have a black QB succeed?. All that aside what really burns me is when they all (except the FOX announcers) felt the need to assert that Peyton Manning is far more deserving of his contract than Vick is deserving of his. Peyton Manning has been in the league at least twice as long and STILL does not have a ring. Without a ring all is game (& Manning even got exposed by the Texans of all teams). And with that let me say that I think Manning is an awesome QB he?s done things I thought were impossible. But the comparison is not sound. Now if these same announcers were saying that Brady deserved more money I?d be onboard (who can argue with two rings in three years) but Brady gets little respect. The bottom line is that McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, Brooks etc. have shown these announcers the future and what they see is far fewer white QB?s and to them that is ?un-desirous?. In a few years the game is going to be too fast for the majority of white QB?s to keep up with?.in speed it?s going to look like BCF. The white guys will have to become complete athletes too not just pocket standing, knee hit career ending, QB?s like twenty or thirty years ago. That ?purest? argument makes me sick. Yes, in the days of old before the advent and mass use of the forward pass, standing in the pocket was good. BUT The game has changed! Everyone in every position is faster and stronger and for these people to be reluctant to see that in a QB is dangerous. Today, you better be able to get away (and make something good happen) or you?ll be wheeled away.

:cool:
~Astrya
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Yeah, the Fox guys know what the deal is...No wonder I watch the Fox NFL coverage rather than hear Shannon Sharpe blast off highlights in Dan Marino's Earlobe...

Interesting thing though..look at the Fox Pre-game cats and the number of Super Bowl rings they have (Bradshaw got 4, Howie Long got 1 and Jimmy Johnson has 2)..so Fox has 8 super bowl rings on its staff...

Shannon Sharpe's the only one on CBS with super bowl rings...

...You're right, and I will emphatically co-sign the post...

Kurt Warner was all-world until he got slapped upside the head a few times IN THE POCKET...
 



Why does a discussion like this always turn racial at some point?

In this day and age, with McNabb, McNair, Culpepper and Vick leading teams, I think it's safe to say that a lot of the stigmatisms whites had with a black QB are being dissolved. I'm not stupid enough to think that there aren't some morons out there who still don't want a black guy at QB, but I think everyone would have to agree that it's far less now than just five or 10 years ago.

Where Vick is concerned, a couple of things triggered the debate over his contract and neither of them had anything to do with his race.

The first is the injury he sustained last year in the preseason. It's true that QBs get hurt all the time, but when you're talking about a QB who gets out of the pocket and scrambles as much as Vick, it's only natural that people would start to question his durability in relation to his style of play after that injury. Secondly, his quarterback rating is horrible. The guy's a playmaker, not a play caller. At some point, that's going to catch up with him. Somewhere along the lines, a defensive coordinator will develop a solid strategy for stopping the "mobile QB." It has happened with every other phenomenon in every sport. Somebody always figures out a way to stop it. The wishbone, the option, the forward pass -- there's a defense to everything.

What separates Vick and Manning, and why Manning's contract wasn't questioned as much, is Manning's ability to run an offense. And he's running the Colts' offense. He calls his own plays from the line, sets the formations and handles all the in-game decisions on offense. And he's damn good at it. Vick's not. What Vick is good at is making things happen. But that happens to be the very thing that got him hurt.

Like it or not, getting outside the pocket and scrambling like he does puts him at risk. You can point out all the pocket passers who were injured that you want to, but I'll point out five times as many who weren't injured.

With all that said, I still would've given Vick the money. He means too much to the Falcons organization and makes too much money in merchandise sales not to. That's not to mention that the team is twice as good with him as without him.
 
:topic:

Not to discourage anyone from posting but the topic of this thread really has nothing to do with how much any of the players make, but why aren't they looked at for what they are, the furture of footballs QB's.

Carry on
 
Dude

Commentators will be commentators when it comes to black and white athletes. If you listen to a broadcast, the white athlete is always cerebral and the black athlete is always acting on instincts. The code words are always there and always will be.

Black QBs always have to be "brought along slowly," while white qbs can pick up the pace of the game quickly. You ever notice they never ever compare QBs across racial lines? For instance, Drew Bledsoe could never be compared to Warren Moon. Dante Culpeppers game is never compared to Fran Tarkenton or someone white. Its like you are commiting a sports blasphemy.

The other day I heard a guy say how smart offensive linemen had to be. Of course every OL was white.

How much smarter was Larry Bird than his competitor?
Was Jordan ever smarter than his competition? Nope, he was just a better athlete.

Things have gotten moderately better, but its a shame when a team like the Cowboys would rather lose than have a black QB. If Q Carter were QBn for the Cowboys as poorly as Vinny, he would be vilified, I mean ripped apart, in the media. But Vinny continues to throw one stupid interception after another but they never questions his intelligence.

Bret Favre can throw some of the dumbest passes ever, but they call that his "confidence level."
 
When white athletes fight, its called "competive nature or competive fire."
A black athlete is automatically called a "thug."

The hockey players are "locked out."
The "greedy" NBA players on "strike" according to the public when they were actually being locked out also and only wanted to play under the current agreement.

I saw John Lynch shoot a violent elbow to a player on the ground after the play was over which got Denver a 15 yard penalty. The commentator actually said, thats what they brought him here for. He is showing "leadership." Of course that would have been a "dumb" penalty if that had been any of the black players on that team.
 
Get Ready said:
When white athletes fight, its called "competive nature or competive fire."
A black athlete is automatically called a "thug."

The hockey players are "locked out."
The "greedy" NBA players on "strike" according to the public when they were actually being locked out also and only wanted to play under the current agreement.

I saw John Lynch shoot a violent elbow to a player on the ground after the play was over which got Denver a 15 yard penalty. The commentator actually said, thats what they brought him here for. He is showing "leadership." Of course that would have been a "dumb" penalty if that had been any of the black players on that team.
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I can't believe this, but i'm actually co-signing a Gee Arrah post
:read:
 
Journalist said:
I can't believe this, but i'm actually co-signing a Gee Arrah post
:read:
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I was JUSt saying the same thing...I AGREE with GR...did I actually type that??

Hey GR... :wavey:

Seriously though...GR is right about the choice words that are used when describing athletes. I'm not one who's always looking for the racial angle, HOWEVER, sometimes it's pretty evident.

It's the same when discussing gender issues...a tough, aggresive male CEO is successful and exhibits great leadership skills...a woman with the same attributes is a beotch and way too sensitive... I just HAD to add that comment. :D
 
Get Ready said:
Most of the commentators feel the way GR feels about Vick. Vick is not worth the money they paid him for his poor QBing skills, but he is worth it because he does but people in the seats. The guy cant hit the side of a barn with the ball, but at least he can run fast.

He will never see the back end of that contract, but its good the brother got 37 million in his hands already. So more power to him. Heck, even though GR is not a Vick fan, Vick has just as many playoff wins as Peyton and Vick has only played 1 full season at QB. Vick is the 26th rated QB as far as passer ratings go, but the bottom line is, his team is winning. The Falcons better keep a good defense.
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I compare Vick to Allen Iverson because even though he doesn't fit the mold at his position, he makes plays and keep fans in the seats. Guys like that are worth whatever you pay them because their franchises wouldn't be isht without them.
 
Get Ready said:
Dude

Commentators will be commentators when it comes to black and white athletes. If you listen to a broadcast, the white athlete is always cerebral and the black athlete is always acting on instincts. The code words are always there and always will be.

Black QBs always have to be "brought along slowly," while white qbs can pick up the pace of the game quickly. You ever notice they never ever compare QBs across racial lines? For instance, Drew Bledsoe could never be compared to Warren Moon. Dante Culpeppers game is never compared to Fran Tarkenton or someone white. Its like you are commiting a sports blasphemy.

The other day I heard a guy say how smart offensive linemen had to be. Of course every OL was white.

How much smarter was Larry Bird than his competitor?
Was Jordan ever smarter than his competition? Nope, he was just a better athlete.

Things have gotten moderately better, but its a shame when a team like the Cowboys would rather lose than have a black QB. If Q Carter were QBn for the Cowboys as poorly as Vinny, he would be vilified, I mean ripped apart, in the media. But Vinny continues to throw one stupid interception after another but they never questions his intelligence.

Bret Favre can throw some of the dumbest passes ever, but they call that his "confidence level."
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Man I have to Co-Sign everything you said on that one. You shole is right GR.
 
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