Why Is Judas Isacriot Considered To Be Evil?

[dacontinent]

Why did he need to ask for forgiveness after he was set up to fail? The person or entity who set him up to fail needs to be asking him for forgiveness for using him as a tool.

In a repeat of myself, Judas made a choice to betray Jesus. He didn't have to do that. He chose to do it of his own volition. That is why he needed to choose to ask for forgiveness for his choice of betrayal.

 

[dacontinent]

For someone who keeps getting tripped up in untruths and inaccuracies time and time again, you got some nerve judging somebody as being "special".

The only thing I am "tripping" about is you. Read on.

Judas Iscariot's name is nowhere mentioned in Psalms 41:9. If you start reading from verse one, you'd see that the chapter's referring to David or whomever wrote this chapter. This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with the Judas of the New Testament.
Zechariah 11:12-13 has nothing to do with Judas and Jesus either. If you'd have taken the time to read, starting as late as verse 8, you'd know that the verses are referring to a particular shephard who broke a covenant with those who hated him. These verses have nothing to do with any Judas or Jesus.
You merely broke in the middle of a story and took one or two verses completely out of context. It didn't take any holy spirit to teach me that. Following simple English and Language Arts rules was enough.

Jesus' name is not mention in the OT either. Those of us who actually believe the Bible simply read and understand the references (like these) that are made to him. Live in denial all you like. The prophetic references are clear and distinct.

Where does it say in scripture that there would've been someone else to take Judas' place? Please list the verses. Mere speculation on your part is insufficient at this point and time.

There is no scripture that says that. What the scripture does identify is the character of the person who would do the deed. If Judas had not been born, them someone else among the 12 would have possessed that character and committed the acts.

Please explain how Judas should've been the one asking for forgiveness, especially when he was the one set up to be the betrayer by the god of the New Testament? You all but admitted it when you said that someone else would've been CHOSEN if it wasn't for Judas. So you admit that Judas was CHOSEN? You admit correctly.

Judas was not chosen. Judas MADE the choice. Don't get it twisted.

This is no different than the situation with the Egyptian Pharoah who was set up to do to the Israelites what he did by the Old Testament god.
...

Excuses, excuses, excuses. The bible clearly says that the Old Testament god INTENTIONALLY hardened Pharoah's heart so that he COULDN'T repent even if he wanted too. Why is that so difficult for you to admit? It's in the bible in black and white.
People who claim otherwise are merely making up excuses to try and cover for and explain away a clear evil committed by a more powerful entity over a weaker vessel. It's as simple as that.

It seems that you have CHOSEN NOT to research the hardening passages. I thought you were a better researcher than that. I was wrong about you.

It would not have happened if there was no person being used as a "tool" to do what he did. Whose the blame in this situation, the clay or the potter (Judas)? It's the potter, who was the New Testament god, but then again, I highly doubt if you'll admit such.

Blame the person who committed the crime.

Judas had his part in the situation, but again, he was only the clay.

Thanks.

Use the "believer excuse" if that helps you cope with this story. Jesus commanded Judas to do what he had to do and do it quickly. Not one time did Jesus discourage Judas or try to talk him out of carrying out what Jesus wanted him to do in the first place. Instead, Judas was encouraged to carry out evil by his teacher and master.

When you know what you came for - and Jesus did - then He knew it was His time. Simple.

How do you know that Judas didn't repent? In actuality, the person who should've repented is the very one who served as an accomplice and who helped put Judas up to doing what he did. Not one time did Jesus discourage Judas to abate the plan....not one time. That alone speaks volume due to the fact that in other parts of the bible, the Jesus character encouraged others NOT to commit sin. In this case, he sat there with his arms folded and did nothing to prevent or aid Judas in NOT carrying out the plan.

Judas was identified as the betrayer in a room full of witnesses. After being identified, he left the room to make the contact. No one went after him: not a single person. The prophecy of the betrayal was already known. He still made the choice to go through with the betrayal. Why? Talk about speaking volumes.

If Jesus wanted to save Judas, he knew exactly what to do and chose not to do it. Instead, he encouraged Judas to carry it out when he could've prayed to the "father" to stop Judas from committing an evil task, but he didn't. He lifted not one finger or prayer to try and save his disciple who was caught in a difficult predicament and who DIDN'T HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT to save him, but Jesus did.
It seems that you have a serious problem admitting when the biblical god does something wrong, even when it's as clear as day. You try and explain it away or flat out deny it....for what, I don't know.
I thought honesty and truthfulness were fruits of the spirit. I guess that's not the case when it comes to a specific god.
...
Jesus knew exactly what Judas was doing, yet he lifted not one finger to try and save his "friend". Seems like Judas was a victim because no one who had the power, came to his rescue. You know who I'm referring to.

The plan of salvation for Judas is the same as for DAContinent and JayRob ... and the rest of us.

You could say the same about the Jesus character, but I know you won't be that honest. Jesus had made up his mind to let Judas do the deed without stepping in as the "intercessor" he was supposed to be.
Not one time did the Jesus character offer up prayers to have Judas protected from whomever. Instead, Judas was left on his own to try and get through this situation the best he could. No advice, support or intervention was ever offered by Jesus to stop Judas from doing what he did. That's ashamed right there, but I know you won't admit such for fear of putting the Jesus character on the spot.

Advice. Judas knew there would be a betrayer. He set himself up to commit the act for a fee. He was exposed in front of his peers before committing the act. He chose to go through with it anyway. What advice would you have offered him that would have exposed him to something that he did not already know?

 

[JayRob]

In a repeat of myself, Judas made a choice to betray Jesus. He didn't have to do that. He chose to do it of his own volition. That is why he needed to choose to ask for forgiveness for his choice of betrayal.

If Judas is fully to blame, then why didn't the Jesus character try and stop him any way he could? Why didn't he offer support to Judas like he did the woman at the well who was caught in sin? Why didn't Jesus even make an attempt to save Judas from himself?

 

[JayRob]

The only thing I am "tripping" about is you. Read on.

Come on Dacon, most who read know you've been tripped up multiple times, but that's neither here nor there. At least you try to answer whereas some would rather shy away from addressing difficult questions at all. I commend you for that.

Jesus' name is not mention in the OT either. Those of us who actually believe the Bible simply read and understand the references (like these) that are made to him. Live in denial all you like. The prophetic references are clear and distinct.

Not only is Judas' name not mentioned, the context is not even about him, yet you still refuse to acknowledge it? This is unbelievably amazing.
Nevermind that you broke in the middle of a story having nothing to do with Judas at all, yet to save face, it seems you'd rather ignore the actual context of an easily understood story. This is telling indeed.
You don't have to admit that you mis-applied both verses because by now, I truly understand why you're doing so, and so do you.
What I would like to ask you is how both verses (Psalms 41:9 and Zechariah 11:12-13) apply to the Jesus character. Thanks in advance.

There is no scripture that says that. What the scripture does identify is the character of the person who would do the deed. If Judas had not been born, them someone else among the 12 would have possessed that character and committed the acts.

Thanks for admitting that there are no verses to support your theory that someone else would've been chosen. On the other hand, while admitting the truth in one area, you condemn the Jesus character in the process.
You claim that if there was no Judas, then another one would've been "manufactured", set up or chosen? If it wasn't Judas, then ANOTHER disciple would've been used as a convenient tool or scapegoat? Am I mistaken in saying this? This clearly shows that Judas is not the one to fully blame. It's the setup person who must shoulder some of the blame as well....that's if one is going to be brutally honest.

Judas was not chosen. Judas MADE the choice. Don't get it twisted.

In your previous post, you stated otherwise. This is getting funnier and sadder at the same time.
According to you, Judas made a "choice", but then you stated that if there was no Judas, another disciple would've been "chosen" in his place. If Judas was "chosen" for this act, why isn't the party who chose him not held liable to some extent? Please explain.

It seems that you have CHOSEN NOT to research the hardening passages. I thought you were a better researcher than that. I was wrong about you.

Please explain where and how I was wrong about the hardening passages.

Blame the person who committed the crime.

So the potter is exonerated? That's like saying blame the problem child, while exonerating the parents for creating the opportune environment for that problem child. In short, the Jesus character made no attempt whatsoever to save his brother from a fault he knew at least three and a half years earlier he was doomed to fall into. Instead, he encouraged Judas to go ahead with the plan and didn't even bother to warn him beforehand to help get him to change his mind.
If I'm mistaken, please explain how the Jesus character should be exonerated.

Thanks.

How does this answer the question of Judas being the clay, but the Jesus character being the potter who helped shape and mold Judas into going forward with the plan? It doesn't. It helps you escape from using words that would condemn the Jesus character from his share of the blame, that's all it does.

When you know what you came for - and Jesus did - then He knew it was His time. Simple.

Why involve Judas at all if Jesus KNEW that it was his time and his time alone? If your theory is true that Jesus knew what he came for, why couldn't he just surrender himself of his own volition to the Jews without Judas even having to be involved? Please explain on behalf of your god-man.

Judas was identified as the betrayer in a room full of witnesses. After being identified, he left the room to make the contact. No one went after him: not a single person. The prophecy of the betrayal was already known. He still made the choice to go through with the betrayal. Why? Talk about speaking volumes.

Judas was identified, then satan entered him. Here are a couple questions I hope you'd take the time to answer with logic. Why didn't the Jesus character prevent satan from entering him? Why didn't the Jesus character not protect his close disciple? Why didn't the Jesus character mention this prophecy to Judas when he was with him for three and a half long years? Jesus knew this evil was going to befall his beloved disciple, yet he kept this to himself for three and a half long years without as much giving Judas a hint of what was to befall him? Is that "loving"? Is that just? I don't think so.

How would you feel if your closest friend kept such a secret from you for three and a half long years?

The plan of salvation for Judas is the same as for DAContinent and JayRob ... and the rest of us.

How is that plan the same for you and me, when Judas was supposedly right there but you and I were nowhere in the picture. If the New Testament stories are real, how is it the same for us as it was for Judas?
Please stop sniffing the glue. It's not the same, not even close. Seeing is believing and it's far more credible than mere faith....two thousand plus years after the fact.
If I had seen this Jesus described in the bible and saw his miracles and witnessed his resurrection, THEN it'd be the same.

Advice. Judas knew there would be a betrayer.

Advice. The Jesus character knew who the exact person would be, but Judas didn't. It was never revealed to him. It amazes me that people think that Judas betrayed a person he witnessed raise people from the dead, that he betrayed him for a few pieces of silver. It was because satan entered.
The Jesus character had the power to forbid satan to touch one of his disciples, but he conveniently CHOSE to intervene by NOT intervening. Now who was REALLY betrayed? It was Judas. Thank you.

He set himself up to commit the act for a fee. He was exposed in front of his peers before committing the act. He chose to go through with it anyway. What advice would you have offered him that would have exposed him to something that he did not already know?

Again, you left out the fact that it stated that satan entered him. Why did Judas' supposed master and protector allow satan to enter him in the first place? Why you chose to ignore that important piece of information is beyond me.
Why didn't Jesus go to Judas ONE ON ONE and talk to him as earliest as possible to try and prevent him from committing such an act? Wasn't the Jesus character more powerful than satan? Yes. Did he have the authority to command satan to do his bidding? Yes.
I'll tell you why the Jesus character left Judas out to dry. It's because the Jesus character cared more about mere prophecy coming to pass than his love for his fellow disciple who had followed him for three and a half long years.
If he cared about Judas, he would've VOLUNTARILY turned himself in to the Jews and left Judas out of it, but he didn't.
Judas was merely a tool being used at the time for convenient purposes. The sooner one admits this, the more free he'll be.

 

[dacontinent]

If Judas is fully to blame, then why didn't the Jesus character try and stop him any way he could? Why didn't he offer support to Judas like he did the woman at the well who was caught in sin? Why didn't Jesus even make an attempt to save Judas from himself?

Note to JayRob: God (Father, Son, nor Holy Ghost) will keep your from exercising your own will. If your mind is made up to do something wrong, God will not stop you. He will advise you; give you sound reasoning for choosing the correct path; speak clearly into your understanding what righteousness is. He then leaves the choice to you. Despite your claims to the contrary, He is not a tyrant nor despotic in that way. He wants to be worshipped out of your will to love Him. Then, even when we screw it up, He offers us His forgiveness and love if we choose to return to Him.

 

[dacontinent]

Come on Dacon, most who read know you've been tripped up multiple times, but that's neither here nor there. At least you try to answer whereas some would rather shy away from addressing difficult questions at all. I commend you for that.

Thanks for the compliment, but I think you (again) sell others short.

Why involve Judas at all if Jesus KNEW that it was his time and his time alone? If your theory is true that Jesus knew what he came for, why couldn't he just surrender himself of his own volition to the Jews without Judas even having to be involved? Please explain on behalf of your god-man.

I whole-heartedly agree with you that Jesus COULD HAVE just surrendedered Himself to the Jews ... except for one thing: the Scriptures.

Judas was identified, then satan entered him. Here are a couple questions I hope you'd take the time to answer with logic. Why didn't the Jesus character prevent satan from entering him?

The same reason that He did not prevent Satan from entering Adam, you, nor me: the choice is ours. Either we choose to obey what He has taught us or we don't

Why didn't the Jesus character not protect his close disciple?

Close is relative. Peter, James, and John were close. Judas was not in that inner circle. (Wonder why?) Not only had he protected him for 3+ years, but except for the times when Jesus took that triumverate to the side, we have every reason to believe that Judas was included in all the teaching of Christ upto the Last Supper. Every beattitude, parable, illustration, demonstration, miracle, and truth. Plus, you know as well as any decent student of the Bible that Jewish boys are taught all of this stuff in Hebrew school before they are ever considered for rabbinical school.

Why didn't the Jesus character mention this prophecy to Judas when he was with him for three and a half long years? Jesus knew this evil was going to befall his beloved disciple, yet he kept this to himself for three and a half long years without as much giving Judas a hint of what was to befall him? Is that "loving"? Is that just? I don't think so.

Ibid.

How would you feel if your closest friend kept such a secret from you for three and a half long years?

I would feel stupid for not knowing something so fundamental.

How is that plan the same for you and me, when Judas was supposedly right there but you and I were nowhere in the picture. If the New Testament stories are real, how is it the same for us as it was for Judas?
Please stop sniffing the glue. It's not the same, not even close. Seeing is believing and it's far more credible than mere faith....two thousand plus years after the fact.
If I had seen this Jesus described in the bible and saw his miracles and witnessed his resurrection, THEN it'd be the same.

Romans 10:9-10 is the classic reference of how it makes us the same. Believing is seeing. All of the 12 saw Jesus operate for those 3+ years. Read the last verse of John's gospel and join with millions of others who claim that they would have believed if they had walked with Him daily like the 12. They walked with Him and still did not believe Him until after He arose from the dead. After that they still got sidetracked and lost focus at times ... just like us. We have the book that they didn't have and we still screw up living. However, the salvation solution remains the same. Outstanding.

Advice. The Jesus character knew who the exact person would be, but Judas didn't. It was never revealed to him. It amazes me that people think that Judas betrayed a person he witnessed raise people from the dead, that he betrayed him for a few pieces of silver. It was because satan entered.
The Jesus character had the power to forbid satan to touch one of his disciples, but he conveniently CHOSE to intervene by NOT intervening. Now who was REALLY betrayed? It was Judas. Thank you.

You're welcomed ... except that I have already pointed out that it was revealed to Judas in the upper room. Satan entered Judas to plan the betrayal and again to actually carry it out.

Again, you left out the fact that it stated that satan entered him. Why did Judas' supposed master and protector allow satan to enter him in the first place? Why you chose to ignore that important piece of information is beyond me.

LOL. There are plenty of elements in the Scriptures whic are beyond you.

Why didn't Jesus go to Judas ONE ON ONE and talk to him as earliest as possible to try and prevent him from committing such an act? Wasn't the Jesus character more powerful than satan? Yes. Did he have the authority to command satan to do his bidding? Yes.
I'll tell you why the Jesus character left Judas out to dry. It's because the Jesus character cared more about mere prophecy coming to pass than his love for his fellow disciple who had followed him for three and a half long years.
If he cared about Judas, he would've VOLUNTARILY turned himself in to the Jews and left Judas out of it, but he didn't.
Judas was merely a tool being used at the time for convenient purposes. The sooner one admits this, the more free he'll be.

Knowing the truth makes you free. He has exalted His Word above his name

 

[JayRob]

Note to JayRob: God (Father, Son, nor Holy Ghost) will keep your from exercising your own will. If your mind is made up to do something wrong, God will not stop you. He will advise you; give you sound reasoning for choosing the correct path; speak clearly into your understanding what righteousness is. He then leaves the choice to you. Despite your claims to the contrary, He is not a tyrant nor despotic in that way. He wants to be worshipped out of your will to love Him. Then, even when we screw it up, He offers us His forgiveness and love if we choose to return to Him.

Please show me the verses where any of this happened with Jesus and Judas on an individual basis. You strengthen my point even more from your list above. Where did the Jesus character offer support and encouragement to Judas.
Where did it say that Judas' mind was set on doing evil? That's merely your opinion.

Keep blaming the victim if that helps your cause. Both Jesus and Judas had their part in making mistakes in this situation. This is what it means not to take sides. Both parties made their mistakes. How can you deny this?

 

[JayRob]

Thanks for the compliment, but I think you (again) sell others short.

Who said selling anyone short? You've been stunted and tripped up several times. No need to be ashamed. You do try more than most though.

I whole-heartedly agree with you that Jesus COULD HAVE just surrendedered Himself to the Jews ... except for one thing: the Scriptures.

So you admit it. It was all about fulfilling scripture, not about saving Judas. You're making progress.

The same reason that He did not prevent Satan from entering Adam, you, nor me: the choice is ours. Either we choose to obey what He has taught us or we don't

Judas didn't have the holy spirit at that time and neither did Adam. They needed that extra help, but as with Adam, that help never came for Judas. He was left to fend against satan all alone. In all actuality, he was in a sense, forsaken.

Close is relative. Peter, James, and John were close. Judas was not in that inner circle. (Wonder why?) Not only had he protected him for 3+ years, but except for the times when Jesus took that triumverate to the side, we have every reason to believe that Judas was included in all the teaching of Christ up to the Last Supper. Every beattitude, parable, illustration, demonstration, miracle, and truth. Plus, you know as well as any decent student of the Bible that Jewish boys are taught all of this stuff in Hebrew school before they are ever considered for rabbinical school.

Judas was close enough to be considered one of the twelve. How much closer could one get? Fact of the matter is that after being with the man for three and half years, not one time did Jesus ever give Judas a hint that satan was after him and that he was going to try and deceive him into betrayal of his master and friend.
He gave Peter direct words warning him about satan, and he protected Peter. Where was this same protection when Judas needed him in his time of need?

Ibid.

As usual, when you haven't an answer, you skip the question. That's your prerogative.

I would feel stupid for not knowing something so fundamental.

So you'd blame yourself if your friend had pertinent information regarding your life and future, yet decided to keep it to himself? Yeah right.
Truth be told, the average person I presume, would feel betrayed. I know I would.
This proves even more than the Jesus character cared more about a scripture being fulfilled than he cared for Judas. Judas was simply a convenient tool, then thrown away like a dirty paper towel. It's all there in the story.

Romans 10:9-10 is the classic reference of how it makes us the same. Believing is seeing. All of the 12 saw Jesus operate for those 3+ years. Read the last verse of John's gospel and join with millions of others who claim that they would have believed if they had walked with Him daily like the 12. They walked with Him and still did not believe Him until after He arose from the dead. After that they still got sidetracked and lost focus at times ... just like us. We have the book that they didn't have and we still screw up living. However, the salvation solution remains the same. Outstanding.

The story shows how fictionalized it is. The average person wouldn't forsake their master if they KNEW they could be raised from the dead; if they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they'd be rulers in his kingdom with riches beyond imagination, there's no way they'd forsake that. Think about it. People die for much less every day.

The average person would've stood by Jesus through thick and thin because it was guaranteed that they'd gain much more by doing so. This is why the Christian story of the disciples forsaking him is considered fictional by many.
Most sane people would want to be a close to the "master of the universe", especially if they had seen the many miracles and visions during the three and a half years of being around Jesus. Come on Dacon, think about it.

You're welcomed ... except that I have already pointed out that it was revealed to Judas in the upper room. Satan entered Judas to plan the betrayal and again to actually carry it out.

Even though it was revealed to Judas in the upper room three and a half years later, where in scripture did the Jesus character try and dissuade him from carrying out the plan? You've failed to present one verse.

By all accounts, Judas was reared and groomed to an extent BY Jesus so he COULD carry out the plan. If there was no Judas, there would've been no death, no burial and no resurrection fulfillments. You all but admitted such.
By admitting such, you admitted that Judas was set-up. It's not that difficult to understand, not unless you're too close to the tree not to see the forest. Back up a bit.

LOL. There are plenty of elements in the Scriptures whic are beyond you.

Perhaps there are elements of scripture that might be beyond me, but this particular subject isn't one of them.

Knowing the truth makes you free. He has exalted His Word above his name.

Exactly. This is why I am free from the bondage of words copied, plagiarized and written thousands of years ago by ignorant, nomadic tribesmen and shephereds, who had no knowledge of common subjects such as microbes, earth's revolutionary cycle or the fact that women are much more than incubators. These are only a few of the reasons why I'm "free" from such elementary ignorance and fables written by mere men.

 

[JagHammer]

Exactly. This is why I am free from the bondage of words copied, plagiarized and written thousands of years ago by ignorant, nomadic tribesmen and shephereds, who had no knowledge of common subjects such as microbes, earth's revolutionary cycle or the fact that women are much more than incubators. These are only a few of the reasons why I'm "free" from such elementary ignorance and fables written by mere men.

Wow. Nice.

 

[dacontinent]

Please show me the verses where any of this happened with Jesus and Judas on an individual basis. You strengthen my point even more from your list above. Where did the Jesus character offer support and encouragement to Judas.
Where did it say that Judas' mind was set on doing evil? That's merely your opinion.

Keep blaming the victim if that helps your cause. Both Jesus and Judas had their part in making mistakes in this situation. This is what it means not to take sides. Both parties made their mistakes. How can you deny this?

RE-POST:

"...except for the times when Jesus took that triumverate to the side, we have every reason to believe that Judas was included in all the teaching of Christ upto the Last Supper. Every beattitude, parable, illustration, demonstration, miracle, and truth. Plus, you know as well as any decent student of the Bible that Jewish boys are taught all of this stuff in Hebrew school before they are ever considered for rabbinical school." - DAContinent

So, with that exception, take a look at all of the passages in the gospels that occur prior to the Last Supper. There are PLENTY of scriptures for you to see what Judas was taught.

Chronologically speaking ...
John 6:69 - 71

And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.​

...

Luke 22:1-4

Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.​

...
John 13:1-2

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;​

Note the progression of Judas' mind to his surrender to Satan.

 

[dacontinent]

So you admit it. It was all about fulfilling scripture, not about saving Judas. You're making progress.

It is absolutely about fulfilling scripture. If scripture is not fulfilled, then God would be a liar. However, His Word is exalted above His name, so we know that He does not lie because He is.

Judas didn't have the holy spirit at that time and neither did Adam. They needed that extra help, but as with Adam, that help never came for Judas. He was left to fend against satan all alone. In all actuality, he was in a sense, forsaken.

Correction: he left to face Satan all alone. He forsook Jesus and the eleven. Even so, that is not the problem with Judas. The problem with Judas is what he chose to do AFTER the betrayal.

Judas was close enough to be considered one of the twelve. How much closer could one get? Fact of the matter is that after being with the man for three and half years, not one time did Jesus ever give Judas a hint that satan was after him and that he was going to try and deceive him into betrayal of his master and friend.
He gave Peter direct words warning him about satan, and he protected Peter. Where was this same protection when Judas needed him in his time of need?

Apparently he could have been MUCH closer. Peter, James & John got closer. Judas was not alone in this distinction; he had eight others in similar status.

As usual, when you haven't an answer, you skip the question. That's your prerogative.

Apparently you don't understand the use of Ibid. It simply means that I reference the immediately previous respons in the post.

So you'd blame yourself if your friend had pertinent information regarding your life and future, yet decided to keep it to himself? Yeah right.
Truth be told, the average person I presume, would feel betrayed. I know I would.
This proves even more than the Jesus character cared more about a scripture being fulfilled than he cared for Judas. Judas was simply a convenient tool, then thrown away like a dirty paper towel. It's all there in the story.

I appreciate your candor. Judas threw himself on the "trash heap". It is right there in print. The other 11, just as guilty of abandonment, found some way to make it back to Jesus.

The story shows how fictionalized it is. The average person wouldn't forsake their master if they KNEW they could be raised from the dead; if they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they'd be rulers in his kingdom with riches beyond imagination, there's no way they'd forsake that. Think about it. People die for much less every day.
...
The average person would've stood by Jesus through thick and thin because it was guaranteed that they'd gain much more by doing so. This is why the Christian story of the disciples forsaking him is considered fictional by many.
Most sane people would want to be a close to the "master of the universe", especially if they had seen the many miracles and visions during the three and a half years of being around Jesus. Come on Dacon, think about it.

Yet you, presented with that very same opportunity, make the choice of not surrendering your life to Christ. So, where does that place you on the scale? So, your "considering it fictional" is simply your opinion.

Yet you, presented with that very same opportunity, make the choice of not surrendering your life to Christ. So, where does that place you on the scale?Even though it was revealed to Judas in the upper room three and a half years later, where in scripture did the Jesus character try and dissuade him from carrying out the plan? You've failed to present one verse.

By all accounts, Judas was reared and groomed to an extent BY Jesus so he COULD carry out the plan. If there was no Judas, there would've been no death, no burial and no resurrection fulfillments. You all but admitted such.
By admitting such, you admitted that Judas was set-up. It's not that difficult to understand, not unless you're too close to the tree not to see the forest. Back up a bit.

Just for fun, start with Matthew 5 - 6. If you cannot find enough there that Judas was taught, then you need a checkup from the neck up.

Exactly. This is why I am free from the bondage of words copied, plagiarized and written thousands of years ago by ignorant, nomadic tribesmen and shephereds, who had no knowledge of common subjects such as microbes, earth's revolutionary cycle or the fact that women are much more than incubators. These are only a few of the reasons why I'm "free" from such elementary ignorance and fables written by mere men.

Yeah, we have been all over the microbes before. That's right up there with us modern and enlightened folks seeing the "births" of galaxies that are so far away that the light from the event is just making it to earth from thousands or perhaps millions of years ago. Ignorance does not make you free.

 

[JayRob]

RE-POST:
"...except for the times when Jesus took that triumverate to the side, we have every reason to believe that Judas was included in all the teaching of Christ upto the Last Supper. Every beattitude, parable, illustration, demonstration, miracle, and truth. Plus, you know as well as any decent student of the Bible that Jewish boys are taught all of this stuff in Hebrew school before they are ever considered for rabbinical school." - DAContinent

So, with that exception, take a look at all of the passages in the gospels that occur prior to the Last Supper. There are PLENTY of scriptures for you to see what Judas was taught.

Your lack of unbiased words as usual clearly tells me that you can't form an objective opinion. Not one time did you place blame on the Jesus character for not warning Judas as soon as he could have, that Satan was going to be after him. Not one time did Jesus lift a finger to command Satan to depart from his disciple/friend and not tempt him.
Not one time have you come close to admitting that the Jesus character could've done more than what is written. Not one time have you admitted that Judas was set up, but you seem to have no problem admitting that another person would've been "found" to fill in as a substitute if there was no Judas. By those words alone, you're still admitting that Judas was set up as a mere scapegoat.

Chronologically speaking ...

John 6:69 - 71 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Where's it mentioned that Jesus warned Judas months ahead of time? That alone is a betrayal by not telling Judas far ahead of time what was to befall him.
When are you going to call out the Jesus character for keeping this secret to himself and not doing all he could to protect Judas from the clutches of Satan? It seems that you can't move your fingers to type one honest negative comment about the Jesus character even though there are plenty of chances for you to do so.
When one takes an honest and objective look at this picture, he should come to understand that the Jesus character should've warned Judas what was to befall him.
He warned Peter that he would deny him three times, but he left Judas out in the cold.

Luke 22:1-4 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.

How and why did Jesus allow Judas to be used as a scapegoat? It's clear that Judas was set up and used as a tool the same as the Egyptian pharoah. Unless one acknowledges such, his credibility as far as objectivity is concerned, should be called into question.

John 13:1-2. Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;

Evidently he didn't love Judas enough to warn him far ahead of time that he was going to be used by Satan. Jesus had complete power over Satan and could've easily commanded him to depart from tempting his friend, but he did no such thing.
He merely cared about fulfilling a prophecy that he knew about years in advance, but didn't bother to tell the "set-up" man what was to befall him. That's not loving at all, that's betrayal.

Note the progression of Judas' mind to his surrender to Satan.

There you go again, continuing to blame Judas for something he had no idea about. When you blame Jesus for keeping this major secret to himself for once, then you'll gain some form of credibility.
Jesus dwelled with Judas for three and a half years, but didn't bother to reveal to him that Satan was out to get him. In addition to that, Judas didn't have the holy spirit, which would've been the "helper" he needed to help combat Satan, but he had Jesus to protect him....or so he thought. Unfortunately, the Jesus character bailed on Judas in his greatest time of need just so a prophecy could be fulfilled.

 

[JayRob]

It is absolutely about fulfilling scripture. If scripture is not fulfilled, then God would be a liar. However, His Word is exalted above His name, so we know that He does not lie because He is.

That's the height of selfishness if I ever heard it. He left his close friend out to dry just so his prophecy could be fulfilled? It never said in the Old Testament that Judas would be the betrayer, so the Jesus character had every chance to save him from the clutches of Satan, but he abandoned him.

Correction: he left to face Satan all alone. He forsook Jesus and the eleven. Even so, that is not the problem with Judas. The problem with Judas is what he chose to do AFTER the betrayal.

There you go again, still insisting on blaming the person who was just as much a victim himself. If Satan wasn't allowed near Judas, none of this would've happened. How many times must this be stated before you get it? Judas was abandoned when he needed the Jesus person the most.
As far as Judas leaving, you seem to forget that he was commanded to leave.

Apparently he could have been MUCH closer. Peter, James & John got closer. Judas was not alone in this distinction; he had eight others in similar status.

Peter evidently wasn't that close in that he denied Jesus three times. I guess you forgot that too.

Apparently you don't understand the use of Ibid. It simply means that I reference the immediately previous respons in the post.

The previous response was nowhere near to being accurate. Judas didn't have to be "close" to Jesus in order for Jesus to reveal to him that he was prophesied to betray him.
Why didn't Jesus reveal this secret specifically to Judas? Is that being "just and loving" not to reveal such an important piece of information to the person whose going to directly be involved? No and no.

I appreciate your candor. Judas threw himself on the "trash heap". It is right there in print. The other 11, just as guilty of abandonment, found some way to make it back to Jesus.

Jesus stated that it was best that he not have been born, so why would Judas need to go back to him? Jesus' statement spoke volumes.
I don't know why Jesus made this statement, seeing that Judas didn't have the holy spirit and didn't commit the unpardonable sin. It seems that the Jesus character already had him condemned no matter what he would've done.

In addition to that, Jesus could've prevented Judas from being the scapegoat victim in the first place, then none of this would've happened.
In retrospect, Judas shouldn't have been involved in the first place. It would've been the same results if Jesus would've turned himself in to the Jews of his own volition without involving Judas or the other disciples.
Instead, he allowed the person he "claimed" to be his "friend", to be used and abused by Satan without as much givng him a helping hand by commanding Satan to depart from him.

Yet you, presented with that very same opportunity, make the choice of not surrendering your life to Christ. So, where does that place you on the scale? So, your "considering it fictional" is simply your opinion.

I'll repeat my previous statement since you're trying to avoid it by focusing on me....The Judas story shows how fictionalized it is. Why? Because the average person wouldn't forsake their master if they KNEW they could be raised from the dead; if they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they'd be rulers in his kingdom with riches beyond imagination, there's no way they'd forsake that. Think about it. People die for much less every day.
The average person would've stood by Jesus through thick and thin because it was guaranteed that they'd gain much more by doing so. This is why the Christian story of the disciples forsaking him is considered fictional by many.
Most sane people would want to be as close to the "master of the universe" as possible, especially if they had seen the many miracles and visions during the three and a half years of being around Jesus. Come on Dacon, think about it.

Just for fun, start with Matthew 5 - 6. If you cannot find enough there that Judas was taught, then you need a checkup from the neck up.

Where did Jesus specifically warn Judas that he would betray him? I can't seem to find it in those chapters. Seems like you need the checkup.

Yeah, we have been all over the microbes before. That's right up there with us modern and enlightened folks seeing the "births" of galaxies that are so far away that the light from the event is just making it to earth from thousands or perhaps millions of years ago. Ignorance does not make you free.

Yeah, we have been over the microbes and much more before. As usual, you have no answer as to why microbes aren't mentioned in the bible. I'll tell you why. It's because the biblical writers did't know about them.

As far as ignorance is concerned, I'm not the one who believe that evil spirits cause diseases or that the sun revolved around the earth. That's the kind of ignorance that's mentioned in the bible, then again you already know this, but you'll never admit it. That's why I can honestly claim that I'm free from such nonsensical ignorance.

 

[dacontinent]

Lost the detailed responses in print preview. Not going to retype them all. Here is the gist.

• You have the scripture where Jesus warned all of the disciples that there was one evil among them. Judas already knew that.
• The OT did not name Judas or Jesus. Just like Jewish girls pray today to be the virgin to carry the Messiah, Jewish boys today pray to not be the betrayer of Messiah. If Jewish kids are still being taught that today, we know that they were being taught that 2000 years ago.
• Never blamed Judas for anything. However, he did betray Jesus to the chief priests.
• You should look up poiema and understand what it means in context.
• Thanks for substantiating my point with Peter's denial.
• I guess you still don't know what Ibid. means. It is clear that there is only One who qualifies as scapegoat in this story: and that is the fella who could take away sin.
• You made the point of characterizing Judas as being close, not me.
• Judas had to deal with the guilt of His betrayal. He chose the path of suicide. Others - just as guilty - chose repentance. Life is about the choices that we make. Since Judas' decision to betray Him was not unpardonable, you DO know why Jesus made the statement: to give Judas a clear path back.
• This ain't nowhere near being about JayRob. Judas was not an average person. Average persons did not go with him practically everywhere for 3+ years. Average persons did not hold the treasury of Jesus' ministry. Average persons did not get in-depth teaching and analysis directly from Jesus after the crowds were sent away. No, sir, Judas (as were the rest of the 12) was anything but average and he made some awful choices. It stands to reason that the average person would have given Jesus up for even less money.
• Biblical writers knew nothing about microbes, nuclear energy, AIDS, space travel, glaciers, ... lots of stuff. But, they knew God. I'll take that level of ignorance every day.
• I do believe evil spirits are at the root of disease (absolutely Biblical), but I have never believed in a geocentric planetary system (absolutely non-Biblical).

 

[JayRob]

Lost the detailed responses in print preview. Not going to retype them all. Here is the gist.

Surrrrre you did.

[*]You have the scripture where Jesus warned all of the disciples that there was one evil among them. Judas already knew that.

He told Judas three and a half years later when he knew all along. He didn't lift one finger to prevent it from happening. It's as simple as that.

[*]The OT did not name Judas or Jesus. Just like Jewish girls pray today to be the virgin to carry the Messiah, Jewish boys today pray to not be the betrayer of Messiah. If Jewish kids are still being taught that today, we know that they were being taught that 2000 years ago.

Didn't Jesus know who the betrayer would be years in advance? Yes he did, but he kept it to himself.
Please present a credible source saying that Jewish boys pray not to be the betrayer of the messiah. Most Jews don't believe that the messiah has come, so how can they betray a messiah that hasn't shown up yet? And when he does come, according to the Old Testament, he won't be human. It would be mighty impossible to betray someone whose all-powerful, but with fiction, anything's possible.

[*]Never blamed Judas for anything. However, he did betray Jesus to the chief priests.

A person automatically blames Judas by not owning up to the mistakes and shortcomings of the Jesus character.

[*]You should look up poiema and understand what it means in context.

Oh, now you're interested in "context"? LOL!! Fact of the matter is that the Jesus character condemned Judas by saying he should've never been born. Nevermind the fact that he was "setup to fail from the beginning, but it'd be hard for you to directly admit such, for fear of condemning your master.

[*]Thanks for substantiating my point with Peter's denial.

Your point was never fully substantiated. Jesus may have been close to Peter, but it's obvious that Peter wasn't as close to him as he thought, being that he denied him several times.
Even though Jesus preached against being a respecter of persons, this is the exact attitude he showed when it came to Judas. He used him up and after his services were no longer needed, he condemned him by saying that it would've been better if he had never been born. Wow!!

[*]I guess you still don't know what Ibid. means. It is clear that there is only One who qualifies as scapegoat in this story: and that is the fella who could take away sin.

There are several scapegoats in biblical history. Judas was used as one as well as the Egyptian pharoah. To an extent, Adam was even used as a scapegoat for the mistake made by the biblical god of allowing him to be tempted beyond his means.
Adam didn't have the holy spirit to help him in his time of need in overcoming the "evil one", yet that same Adam was blamed for allowing sin into the garden.
On the other hand, the Jesus character was given the "full measure" of the holy spirit to help him overcome that SAME "evil one".
To make matters worse, this same Jesus was then given credit for taking away sin. Nevermind the fact that Adam wasn't given the opportunity of the holy spirit to combat the "evil one", but the Jesus character was given that opportunity. If Adam had been given the full measure of the holy spirit, he wouldn't have sinned and there would've been no need for the Jesus character, so yes....Adam was a scapegoat as well.

[*]You made the point of characterizing Judas as being close, not me.

The bible made the point of characterizing Judas as being close by saying that Judas was a disciple of Jesus. The disciples were the closest to Jesus of any group of people....so yes.....to an extent, Judas was close to the Jesus character.

[*]Judas had to deal with the guilt of His betrayal. He chose the path of suicide. Others - just as guilty - chose repentance. Life is about the choices that we make. Since Judas' decision to betray Him was not unpardonable, you DO know why Jesus made the statement: to give Judas a clear path back.

If Judas had to deal with the guilt of his betrayal, why don't you admit that the Jesus character had to deal with his betrayal of Judas and all that went along with that betrayal? Why is that so hard for you to admit?
It's all one-sided with you, this is why your credibility continues to wane.
According to you, the Jesus character did no wrong by withholding valuable information from the person he supposedly loved. According to you, the Jesus character did right in not telling Judas long before he did, that satan was planning to trick him into betraying his master.
Saying that a person, "should've never been born" is nowhere near paving a path back to the person who said it. Again, you're making up scenarios for the purpose of keeping the blame on Judas, while shielding the Jesus character from any for fear that you'll verbally condemn your savior and master. That's not being honest, but in your case, it's understandable.
I'm thankful in not having to be bound by such internal pressures to not tell the whole truth no matter which side is to blame.

[*]This ain't nowhere near being about JayRob. Judas was not an average person. Average persons did not go with him practically everywhere for 3+ years. Average persons did not hold the treasury of Jesus' ministry. Average persons did not get in-depth teaching and analysis directly from Jesus after the crowds were sent away. No, sir, Judas (as were the rest of the 12) was anything but average and he made some awful choices. It stands to reason that the average person would have given Jesus up for even less money.

According to the bible and most Christians, anyone who doesn't have the holy spirit, is an average person. Do you deny this?

[*]Biblical writers knew nothing about microbes, nuclear energy, AIDS, space travel, glaciers, ... lots of stuff. But, they knew God. I'll take that level of ignorance every day.

If the biblical writers actually had access to the Supreme Being who actually created the above-mentioned, there's no way they would've have posted under inspiration, information that's been scientifically proven to be false. Come on Dacon.

[*]I do believe evil spirits are at the root of disease (absolutely Biblical), but I have never believed in a geocentric planetary system (absolutely non-Biblical).

Say what??!! LOL! Where's proven scientific evidence that evil spirits are at the root of diseases? If this is the case, why go to doctors who specialize in destroying physical bacteria and viruses? Do they offer healing from spirit-caused diseases?
Again, you're making a rod for your own back and digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole that's almost reaching China.

 

[dacontinent]

Didn't Jesus know who the betrayer would be years in advance? Yes he did, but he kept it to himself.

I have already given your scripture to the contrary.

Please present a credible source saying that Jewish boys pray not to be the betrayer of the messiah. Most Jews don't believe that the messiah has come, so how can they betray a messiah that hasn't shown up yet? And when he does come, according to the Old Testament, he won't be human. It would be mighty impossible to betray someone whose all-powerful, but with fiction, anything's possible.

Ask any rabbi of your choosing.

A person automatically blames Judas by not owning up to the mistakes and shortcomings of the Jesus character.

JayRob's conjecture.

Oh, now you're interested in "context"? LOL!! Fact of the matter is that the Jesus character condemned Judas by saying he should've never been born. Nevermind the fact that he was "setup to fail from the beginning, but it'd be hard for you to directly admit such, for fear of condemning your master.

Still waiting for you to get the quote right (I have already given it to you) and for the presentation of the CONDEMNATION of Judas.

Your point was never fully substantiated. Jesus may have been close to Peter, but it's obvious that Peter wasn't as close to him as he thought, being that he denied him several times.

Thanks for substantiating my point even further...

Even though Jesus preached against being a respecter of persons, this is the exact attitude he showed when it came to Judas. He used him up and after his services were no longer needed, he condemned him by saying that it would've been better if he had never been born. Wow!!

...and still further.

There are several scapegoats in biblical history...

Do you even understand the derivation of the term? Not by what your typing here.

If Judas had to deal with the guilt of his betrayal, why don't you admit that the Jesus character had to deal with his betrayal of Judas and all that went along with that betrayal? Why is that so hard for you to admit?

Previously delineated.

According to the bible and most Christians, anyone who doesn't have the holy spirit, is an average person. Do you deny this?

I do deny this. However, by your conclusion those persons that you consider average would not be looking for nor recognize Messiah; hence they would not believe and would not follow no matter what He did.

If the biblical writers actually had access to the Supreme Being who actually created the above-mentioned, there's no way they would've have posted under inspiration, information that's been scientifically proven to be false. Come on Dacon.

More JayRob conjecture.

Say what??!! LOL! Where's proven scientific evidence that evil spirits are at the root of diseases? If this is the case, why go to doctors who specialize in destroying physical bacteria and viruses? Do they offer healing from spirit-caused diseases?
Again, you're making a rod for your own back and digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole that's almost reaching China.

Where and when did infectious disease originate? You make this too easy.

 

[dacontinent]

I never said he was evil. One would be hardpressed to find evidence that he even existed.

The above was your response to my question of

Better yet ... why do YOU THINK he is considered evil?

It doesn't seem to answer the question. Perhaps my question was inadequate. Let me rephrase.

Apparently you have heard or read others reasoning that Judas was evil. What are those reasons that you have been given?

 

[JayRob]

I have already given your scripture to the contrary.

As usual, the verses you gave had nothing to do with showing that Jesus revealed to Judas what he knew more than three years in advance. You've not shown one verse verifying this.

Ask any rabbi of your choosing.

Forget asking a rabbi, I'm asking you since it was you who brought it up. If you can't present evidence, just say so.

JayRob's conjecture.

It's better and more honest than what you offered. Both Judas and Jesus is to blame, not just Judas. The Jesus character kept vital information from Judas for three whole years, but still had the nerve to call Judas "his friend". LOL!!

Still waiting for you to get the quote right (I have already given it to you) and for the presentation of the CONDEMNATION of Judas.

I'm still waiting on you to be honest and admit that the Jesus character shares part of the blame when it comes to offering himself up to the Jews. All the Jesus character had to do was turn himself in to the Jews. He didn't have to use Judas as a scapegoat if he didn't want to, but he did.

Do you even understand the derivation of the term? Not by what your typing here.

Since you think you know, please explain it. Fact of the matter is that you'll blame any and everybody else, but when it comes to telling the truth and calling a spade a spade as it pertains to the Jesus character, you consistently come up short for fear of condemning your Jesus savior.

Previously delineated.

In short, you don't want to place part of the blame on the Jesus character. You can run from it, but it will continue to follow you and I'll continue to remind you as well.
Truth should matter more than favoritism, or at least it should. Even your bible teaches this but it seems you don't follow that part of it when it shows the Jesus character in a negative light.

I do deny this. However, by your conclusion those persons that you consider average would not be looking for nor recognize Messiah; hence they would not believe and would not follow no matter what He did.

Neither you nor anyone else would recognize him because you've never seen him for yourself. All you have to go by is mere faith....which is no evidence at all. It's merely a hope that what you're wishing/praying for comes to pass. Nothing more, nothing less.

More JayRob conjecture.

Call it conjecture if that helps save you from answering with logic. Fact of the matter is that if the biblical writers knew half as much about microbes and the earth's revolution around the sun, they wouldn't have foolishly and ignorantly written down words proving that they didn't know what they were talking about.
I doubt if you'll acknowledge such because if you honestly did, you'd have to admit that the bible has multiple errors and false statements that go against proven scientific facts.

Where and when did infectious disease originate? You make this too easy.

It's you whose making it easy. I'm waiting on you to show evidence that evil spirits are at the root cause of diseases instead of bacteria and viruses.

 

[JayRob]

The above was your response to my question of

It doesn't seem to answer the question. Perhaps my question was inadequate. Let me rephrase.

Apparently you have heard or read others reasoning that Judas was evil. What are those reasons that you have been given?

Evidently, the Jesus character considered Judas to be evil or he wouldn't have inspired the biblical authors to write that it would've been better if he had never been born.
Now why would the Jesus character say something like this about a person who didn't have any evil in him?

 

[dacontinent]

Evidently, the Jesus character considered Judas to be evil or he wouldn't have inspired the biblical authors to write that it would've been better if he had never been born.
Now why would the Jesus character say something like this about a person who didn't have any evil in him?

I don't know that this was an answer to my question, but thanks for the reply.

Remember what Jesus did say about this:

The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.​

Mark 14:21

Jesus does not say that it would be better that Judas not be born. He does say that it would be better for him (the betrayer) that he was not born. He also does not say that the betrayer was a evil person.

We could probably come up with a number of reasons (such as this thread) for Jesus making this statement. However, He left it unqualified.

 

[dacontinent]

As usual, the verses you gave had nothing to do with showing that Jesus revealed to Judas what he knew more than three years in advance. You've not shown one verse verifying this.
...
It's better and more honest than what you offered. Both Judas and Jesus is to blame, not just Judas. The Jesus character kept vital information from Judas for three whole years, but still had the nerve to call Judas "his friend". LOL!!
...
I'm still waiting on you to be honest and admit that the Jesus character shares part of the blame when it comes to offering himself up to the Jews. All the Jesus character had to do was turn himself in to the Jews. He didn't have to use Judas as a scapegoat if he didn't want to, but he did.
...
In short, you don't want to place part of the blame on the Jesus character. You can run from it, but it will continue to follow you and I'll continue to remind you as well.
Truth should matter more than favoritism, or at least it should. Even your bible teaches this but it seems you don't follow that part of it when it shows the Jesus character in a negative light.

Maybe you are finally catching on ... that Jesus came to offer Himself. Did He need Judas for this purpose? No. Had there been other attempts on His life from which He escaped? Multiple. What, then, was different about the Gethsemane situation? Perhaps your answer to that question will give you the satisfaction that you seek.

Negative light? From He who provides the illumination??!! That is an oxymoron.

I don't blame Judas for Jesus' death ... and neither do the Scriptures.

Forget asking a rabbi, I'm asking you since it was you who brought it up. If you can't present evidence, just say so.

That is exactly how I got the information: I asked a rabbi, a certified authority on the subject.

Since you think you know, please explain it. Fact of the matter is that you'll blame any and everybody else, but when it comes to telling the truth and calling a spade a spade as it pertains to the Jesus character, you consistently come up short for fear of condemning your Jesus savior.

Ibid. (Latin, short for ibidem, meaning the same place) is the term used to provide an endnote or footnote citation or reference for a source that was cited in the preceding endnote or footnote.

Neither you nor anyone else would recognize him because you've never seen him for yourself. All you have to go by is mere faith....which is no evidence at all. It's merely a hope that what you're wishing/praying for comes to pass. Nothing more, nothing less.

So now you are offering testimony on my behalf. :smh:

Call it conjecture if that helps save you from answering with logic. Fact of the matter is that if the biblical writers knew half as much about microbes and the earth's revolution around the sun, they wouldn't have foolishly and ignorantly written down words proving that they didn't know what they were talking about.
I doubt if you'll acknowledge such because if you honestly did, you'd have to admit that the bible has multiple errors and false statements that go against proven scientific facts.

Let me help you again. The OT writers knew nothing about microbes or heliocentricity. I hope that helps you.

It's you whose making it easy. I'm waiting on you to show evidence that evil spirits are at the root cause of diseases instead of bacteria and viruses.

One more time:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

This is still not likely to register with you, but I share it nonetheless.

 

[JayRob]

I don't know that this was an answer to my question, but thanks for the reply.

Remember what Jesus did say about this:

The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.​

Mark 14:21

Jesus does not say that it would be better that Judas not be born. He does say that it would be better for him (the betrayer) that he was not born. He also does not say that the betrayer was a evil person.We could probably come up with a number of reasons (such as this thread) for Jesus making this statement. However, He left it unqualified.

Huh?! You're making something so simple, more difficult than it ought to be.
The rest of the context show us who the Jesus character was referring to after he stated "he should've never been born" and it shows that it was Judas.
Why would the Jesus character make the comment that this person should've never been born if he wasn't evil?

I find it hard to understand why you're in denial of such a simple biblical context.

 

[JayRob]

Maybe you are finally catching on ... that Jesus came to offer Himself.

Please, let's not get it twisted. Judas offered Jesus up to the Jews. Jesus never offered himself up before this, eventhough he could have, but instead, he used Judas as the "flunky".

Did He need Judas for this purpose? No.

If he didn't need him, then why was Judas involved in the first place? Evidently, the Jesus character needed him very much in order to help his supposed prophecies come to pass.

Had there been other attempts on His life from which He escaped? Multiple. What, then, was different about the Gethsemane situation? Perhaps your answer to that question will give you the satisfaction that you seek.

No, it doesn't. The simple matter is that without Judas, prophecies of the Jesus character wouldn't have come to pass. This is the primary issue that is at the heart of the matter.

Negative light? From He who provides the illumination??!! That is an oxymoron.

You're entitled to your own opinion as to whether or not the Jesus character is total illumination. I'm simply pointing out the fact that the Jesus character had every opportunity to turn himself over to the Jews, but he let his flunky named Judas do the deed just so his prophecies would come to pass.

I don't blame Judas for Jesus' death ... and neither do the Scriptures.

Whether you blame him or not is irrelevant. The Jesus character blamed him for turning him over to the Jews.

That is exactly how I got the information: I asked a rabbi, a certified authority on the subject.

You asking a rabbi is irrelevant and makes no sense. Evidently, this rabbi is no "expert" on the subject because how can one betray an immortal messiah?
According to Old Testament scriptures, the messiah is supposed to come back as being all-powerful, so why would this messiah be concerned about a mere mortal betraying him?

So now you are offering testimony on my behalf. :smh:

Doesn't the bible say that "no man has seen god at any time"? If Jesus is supposed to be god, then how could you have seen him?

Let me help you again. The OT writers knew nothing about microbes or heliocentricity. I hope that helps you.

It's obvious that they didn't or they wouldn't have written untruths contradicting microbes and heliocentricity.
Who supposedly inspired the OT writers of what to write? The OT god is said to have done so. If that's the case, the entity (OT god) who supposedly inspired them, didn't know about microbes and heliocentricity either. How do you explain that?

One more time:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

This is still not likely to register with you, but I share it nonetheless.

So, you're taking this story above scientific evidence, a story of a snake deceiving two humans? Are you saying that this snake created microbes that cause diseases?

 

[dacontinent]

Huh?! You're making something so simple, more difficult than it ought to be.
The rest of the context show us who the Jesus character was referring to after he stated "he should've never been born" and it shows that it was Judas.
Why would the Jesus character make the comment that this person should've never been born if he wasn't evil?

I find it hard to understand why you're in denial of such a simple biblical context.

But you appear to find it even harder to understand the difference in what Jesus said and what you claim that He said.

 

[dacontinent]

Please, let's not get it twisted. Judas offered Jesus up to the Jews. Jesus never offered himself up before this, eventhough he could have, but instead, he used Judas as the "flunky".

Yes, let's not. Just understand that He offered Himself.

If he didn't need him, then why was Judas involved in the first place? Evidently, the Jesus character needed him very much in order to help his supposed prophecies come to pass.

You have now gone circular.

No, it doesn't. The simple matter is that without Judas, prophecies of the Jesus character wouldn't have come to pass. This is the primary issue that is at the heart of the matter.

I have no idea what this response means in light of the question that I asked.

You're entitled to your own opinion as to whether or not the Jesus character is total illumination. I'm simply pointing out the fact that the Jesus character had every opportunity to turn himself over to the Jews, but he let his flunky named Judas do the deed just so his prophecies would come to pass.

He simply let Judas do what was in his heart.

Whether you blame him or not is irrelevant. The Jesus character blamed him for turning him over to the Jews.

Exactly what Judas wanted to do. You somehow see this as Jesus' fault.

You asking a rabbi is irrelevant and makes no sense. Evidently, this rabbi is no "expert" on the subject because how can one betray an immortal messiah?
According to Old Testament scriptures, the messiah is supposed to come back as being all-powerful, so why would this messiah be concerned about a mere mortal betraying him?

We have been talking about this for many posts now. Judas is the example.

Apparently you are not as well versed in OT scripture regarding the Messiah as you like to think.

Doesn't the bible say that "no man has seen god at any time"? If Jesus is supposed to be god, then how could you have seen him?

:read:

It's obvious that they didn't or they wouldn't have written untruths contradicting microbes and heliocentricity.
Who supposedly inspired the OT writers of what to write? The OT god is said to have done so. If that's the case, the entity (OT god) who supposedly inspired them, didn't know about microbes and heliocentricity either. How do you explain that?

Let me give you this little example.

An executive dictates a letter. The clerical person scribes it. Is it incumbent upon the executive to dictate EVERYTHING that he knows on the subject matter in order to convey to the reader what the executive wants them to know from the letter? Yes, this is a rhetorical question.

So, you're taking this story above scientific evidence, a story of a snake deceiving two humans? Are you saying that this snake created microbes that cause diseases?

I have taken every discussion here on this board above scientific evidence. That comes as no surprise to you since you know that the Bible is not a scientific book: it is a FAITH book.

No, the snake (Satan) has not CREATED anything.