Donald K. Willi
New Member
Have you ever wondered why there are more Black head basketball coaches than Black head football coaches at the D1A level?They both are high profile sports.
WHY ARE THERE MORE BLACK HEAD BASKEBALL COACHES THAN BLACK HEAD FOOTBALL COACHES?
- Thread starter Donald K. Willi
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cat daddy
Active Member
Re: WHY ARE THERE MORE BLACK HEAD BASKEBALL COACHES THAN BLACK HEAD FOOTBALL COACHES
Yes they are both high profile, but we all know that football is king in college athletics. I think the big time programs are just not ready to turn the the keys to the Bently over to the brotha's yet. They will let us drive the Lincoln, but not the Bently.
Yes they are both high profile, but we all know that football is king in college athletics. I think the big time programs are just not ready to turn the the keys to the Bently over to the brotha's yet. They will let us drive the Lincoln, but not the Bently.
Dr. Sweet NUPE
New Member
Re: WHY ARE THERE MORE BLACK HEAD BASKEBALL COACHES THAN BLACK HEAD FOOTBALL COACHES
MONEY....Arkansas Football Stadium hold 79,000 people....at prices from $25 to $250....also students have to pay....doing the math at the lowest cost
79,000 * 25 = 1.9 million dollars....
Now basketball...let's just say it does not bring in that much during a home game.
Butch Wms. said:
MONEY....Arkansas Football Stadium hold 79,000 people....at prices from $25 to $250....also students have to pay....doing the math at the lowest cost
79,000 * 25 = 1.9 million dollars....
Now basketball...let's just say it does not bring in that much during a home game.
Re: WHY ARE THERE MORE BLACK HEAD BASKEBALL COACHES THAN BLACK HEAD FOOTBALL COACHES
BASKETBALL at all levels, we began to dominate in a few years. and we went from players to coaches.
Watch the racial evolution of the pros. The colleges follow.
That money thing will make the evolution slower, but it is coming.
I think it is just the racial evolotion. Think about the integration of all sports. FOOTBALL. We could not play at all. Then we could be running backs, Thenon the line, then all positions but quarterback.now we are getting into that area. When we dominate all areas of the sport we will begin to fill the positions off the field..Dr. Sweet NUPE said:
BASKETBALL at all levels, we began to dominate in a few years. and we went from players to coaches.
Watch the racial evolution of the pros. The colleges follow.
That money thing will make the evolution slower, but it is coming.
Re: WHY ARE THERE MORE BLACK HEAD BASKEBALL COACHES THAN BLACK HEAD FOOTBALL COACHES
In the 70's when Blacks began to dominate basketball starting lineups and rosters of predominate white universities they hired Black assistant coaches basically to deal with cultural differences or they were counselors so to speak. This was not necessary in football because Black players were in the minority. From tokenism, the Black basketball coaches evolved into actual coaching positions where they received training in major college situations. When it was obvious that blacks would dominate the game schools started hiring black head coaches after receiving pressure from the NCAA as well as outside interest groups (NAACP). Schools were more cordial to hiring basketball coaches as opposed to football.Butch Wms. said:
MightyDog
Well-Known Member
Re: WHY ARE THERE MORE BLACK HEAD BASKEBALL COACHES THAN BLACK HEAD FOOTBALL COACHES
I agree football is King of college sports.
Secondly, look at the duties of a head football coach on and off the field. Many high profile people like to mingle with a headcoach socially and is willing to help as long as the hue of the coach skin is like theirs. In short without trying to convince anyone, it is just too difficult for many high profile alums and corporations to throw their support behind a black headcoach.
I agree football is King of college sports.
Secondly, look at the duties of a head football coach on and off the field. Many high profile people like to mingle with a headcoach socially and is willing to help as long as the hue of the coach skin is like theirs. In short without trying to convince anyone, it is just too difficult for many high profile alums and corporations to throw their support behind a black headcoach.
Jag-Tig
Member
Re: WHY ARE THERE MORE BLACK HEAD BASKEBALL COACHES THAN BLACK HEAD FOOTBALL COACHES
Exactly. Saturdays in the fall are when the good ol' boys hobnob and socialize. That is an environment that blacks have not been welcomed in... and therefore, to have a black man coaching a football team would ruin the decades-old tradition of the boosters and donors sitting in the luxury suites, smoking cigars, sipping Cognac and talking about old times. Football is a social event. I never realized how big they do things until I worked at the University of South Carolina.
The events surrounding the sports are totally different...you have homecoming balls and parties and private $200 a plate dinners and receptions for the folks who are donating money to the FOOTBALL program. Historically, these events were NOT for the black folks...we know that's a fact. Hiring a black head football coach opens these events up to a different kind of crowd and we just have to be realistic and know that they just don't want us around. The local rich, white business owner doesn't want his son (the best QB in the area) to be coached by a black man. And this business owner won't hesistate to let the president and athletic director know this either.
Basketball is not a sport that is geared towards the uppercrust of white society. Back in the day (and even now in some places), rich, pretty homecoming queens dated the star quarterback...they didn't date the star point guard. The star point guard was Darnell...the star qb was Matt...
Anyway, I digress. You get the picture. It's different mentalities, different support system.
Just had to be real for a minute.
Exactly. Saturdays in the fall are when the good ol' boys hobnob and socialize. That is an environment that blacks have not been welcomed in... and therefore, to have a black man coaching a football team would ruin the decades-old tradition of the boosters and donors sitting in the luxury suites, smoking cigars, sipping Cognac and talking about old times. Football is a social event. I never realized how big they do things until I worked at the University of South Carolina.
The events surrounding the sports are totally different...you have homecoming balls and parties and private $200 a plate dinners and receptions for the folks who are donating money to the FOOTBALL program. Historically, these events were NOT for the black folks...we know that's a fact. Hiring a black head football coach opens these events up to a different kind of crowd and we just have to be realistic and know that they just don't want us around. The local rich, white business owner doesn't want his son (the best QB in the area) to be coached by a black man. And this business owner won't hesistate to let the president and athletic director know this either.
Basketball is not a sport that is geared towards the uppercrust of white society. Back in the day (and even now in some places), rich, pretty homecoming queens dated the star quarterback...they didn't date the star point guard. The star point guard was Darnell...the star qb was Matt...
Anyway, I digress. You get the picture. It's different mentalities, different support system.
Just had to be real for a minute.
cat daddy
Active Member
Re: WHY ARE THERE MORE BLACK HEAD BASKEBALL COACHES THAN BLACK HEAD FOOTBALL COACHES
:nod:
Totally agree. Hence my reference, Football is the Bently and Basketball is the Lincoln. Both are nice cars, but Tyrone ain't getting his hands on the Bently.
Jag-Tig said:Basketball is not a sport that is geared towards the uppercrust of white society. Back in the day (and even now in some places), rich, pretty homecoming queens dated the star quarterback...they didn't date the star point guard. The star point guard was Darnell...the star qb was Matt...
Anyway, I digress. You get the picture. It's different mentalities, different support system.
Just had to be real for a minute.
:nod:
Totally agree. Hence my reference, Football is the Bently and Basketball is the Lincoln. Both are nice cars, but Tyrone ain't getting his hands on the Bently.
Re: WHY ARE THERE MORE BLACK HEAD BASKEBALL COACHES THAN BLACK HEAD FOOTBALL COACHES
Ah, I hate to break up the rationale with a question but,how many black head coaches are there in basketball? What is the statistical difference? If you factor in the 250 or so schools that have IA and IAA football and basketball programs, what is the total percentage difference in black coaches?
Also, using a historical context. How many black head football coaches are there at DI and DII levels? If you want to count DIII and NAIA, that could also be a legitimate measure. Look, I'm not saying there isn't racism - what I'm saying is that we have to look at the total pipeline. How many OCs and DCs are there in the BCS conferences? What is that difference from five years ago?
Finally, and please don't take this the wrong way -- but what is the total WINNING percentage of black coaches at the IA level? Is it even .400? Is there even a black DI head coach with more than 5 years experience with a +.500 record? (Maybe Tyrone and perhaps Dennis Green... but is there anyone else?).
Ah, I hate to break up the rationale with a question but,how many black head coaches are there in basketball? What is the statistical difference? If you factor in the 250 or so schools that have IA and IAA football and basketball programs, what is the total percentage difference in black coaches?
Also, using a historical context. How many black head football coaches are there at DI and DII levels? If you want to count DIII and NAIA, that could also be a legitimate measure. Look, I'm not saying there isn't racism - what I'm saying is that we have to look at the total pipeline. How many OCs and DCs are there in the BCS conferences? What is that difference from five years ago?
Finally, and please don't take this the wrong way -- but what is the total WINNING percentage of black coaches at the IA level? Is it even .400? Is there even a black DI head coach with more than 5 years experience with a +.500 record? (Maybe Tyrone and perhaps Dennis Green... but is there anyone else?).
Jag-Tig
Member
Re: WHY ARE THERE MORE BLACK HEAD BASKEBALL COACHES THAN BLACK HEAD FOOTBALL COACHES
LaMont, your points are well taken and good observations. But the perception that there are more black DI head bkb coaches mirrors reality. I can't get to the numbers now, but percentage-wise we know there's a good number of black head coaches in bkb, in comparison to the number of black fb coaches. The NCAA does a study about the numbers and it's been noted about the difference. This conversation that we're having has been had many times by those who analyze this situation. There are no black head fb coaches on the DI-AA level at all, excluding HBCUs. None. As for DII and NAIA, I don't believe there are any at DII. Again, I'd have to pull the NCAA numbers, but we should be able to find out pretty easily.
Bottom line, someone somewhere makes the decisions to hire these coaches in both sports, on all levels. We have to change the thinking of those folks who are making the decisions. Check out Ole Miss going way out to the West coast to get an assistant coach to be the head coach of their team. Now to their credit they wanted Ty, but well, we know how that went.
You also raised a good point about winning percertage, but I think what we're talking about is opportunities. Tubby Smith, George Felton and Stan Heath and Rod Barnes are black head bkb coaches in the SEC. The SEC! That's four out of 12 head coaches in a very high profile conference. The SEC JUST hired it's first black head football coach last spring...2004.
So, even if some of these coaches (fb or bkb) aren't winning they are at least given the opportunity to do so. In some instances, like Fitz Hill at San Jose or Samuels at New Mexico, it's difficult for ANY coach, black or white to win football games. Many times they are put in no-win situations, so the winning percentage does look pretty bleak.
Now there are quite a few OCs and DCs, but they don't get the recognition they deserve so we never hear about them. The sad part is that you would think the next step is a head coaching position and that's just the point. Sure there are a lot of coordinators out there, but when will those guys get a chance to run their own show. I know some coordinators who have been doing their thing at the same school for 10+ years.
When you talk about the pipeline, you would think that there should be tons of opportunities for former black players. I've seen it happen on a couple of occasions where the grad assistant jobs (which are key positions in getting in the coaching ranks) go to the guy who used to be the manager of a high school football team or played QB in h.s. but not good enough for college...it just so happens he's so and so's nephew or neighbor. The black kid who was all-conference and has talent and ability will be overlooked for the grad asst position and that goes back to what we said at the beginning...comfort level.
No matter how we look at it, be it social acceptance or racism or just plain ignorance, it's not good.
LaMont, your points are well taken and good observations. But the perception that there are more black DI head bkb coaches mirrors reality. I can't get to the numbers now, but percentage-wise we know there's a good number of black head coaches in bkb, in comparison to the number of black fb coaches. The NCAA does a study about the numbers and it's been noted about the difference. This conversation that we're having has been had many times by those who analyze this situation. There are no black head fb coaches on the DI-AA level at all, excluding HBCUs. None. As for DII and NAIA, I don't believe there are any at DII. Again, I'd have to pull the NCAA numbers, but we should be able to find out pretty easily.
Bottom line, someone somewhere makes the decisions to hire these coaches in both sports, on all levels. We have to change the thinking of those folks who are making the decisions. Check out Ole Miss going way out to the West coast to get an assistant coach to be the head coach of their team. Now to their credit they wanted Ty, but well, we know how that went.
You also raised a good point about winning percertage, but I think what we're talking about is opportunities. Tubby Smith, George Felton and Stan Heath and Rod Barnes are black head bkb coaches in the SEC. The SEC! That's four out of 12 head coaches in a very high profile conference. The SEC JUST hired it's first black head football coach last spring...2004.
So, even if some of these coaches (fb or bkb) aren't winning they are at least given the opportunity to do so. In some instances, like Fitz Hill at San Jose or Samuels at New Mexico, it's difficult for ANY coach, black or white to win football games. Many times they are put in no-win situations, so the winning percentage does look pretty bleak.
Now there are quite a few OCs and DCs, but they don't get the recognition they deserve so we never hear about them. The sad part is that you would think the next step is a head coaching position and that's just the point. Sure there are a lot of coordinators out there, but when will those guys get a chance to run their own show. I know some coordinators who have been doing their thing at the same school for 10+ years.
When you talk about the pipeline, you would think that there should be tons of opportunities for former black players. I've seen it happen on a couple of occasions where the grad assistant jobs (which are key positions in getting in the coaching ranks) go to the guy who used to be the manager of a high school football team or played QB in h.s. but not good enough for college...it just so happens he's so and so's nephew or neighbor. The black kid who was all-conference and has talent and ability will be overlooked for the grad asst position and that goes back to what we said at the beginning...comfort level.
No matter how we look at it, be it social acceptance or racism or just plain ignorance, it's not good.
Journalist
Listen up maggots! And that's an order!
Re: WHY ARE THERE MORE BLACK HEAD BASKEBALL COACHES THAN BLACK HEAD FOOTBALL COACHES
Please remember that I-A and I-AA exists only in football when y'all do those breakdowns... :read:
Please remember that I-A and I-AA exists only in football when y'all do those breakdowns... :read: