The Bible or Morality: Which Came First (cont'd)

[JayRob]

There I go being unclear again.

​

I wasn't referring to Jesus. I was referring to the video evidence of Pastor Daniel and the fact that he remained alive at least 5 years after being raised from the dead ... and the fact that Bonnke had no active role in his resurrection.

Who cares if a million people witnessed such a thing? Was the man medically pronounced as being dead? That's the issue.
Your fraudulent miracle worker couldn't produce one shred of evidence. He had to go halfway around the world to pull such a stunt, in front of people who required no medical documentation. If that's the case, he can raise up a thousand people and be called a great miracle worker.

He would never pull that kind of nonsense in the U.S., even amongst "believing" Christians because he knows he would have to actually prove that the man was dead.

It just so happens unfortunately, that around the world, some people are more gullible and uneducated than others.

 

[Dr H..]

According to Dr. Robert O. Becker in his book “The Body Electric,â€

So what’s your point, what you are saying is nothing new! The body has electrical impulses that have been known for decades. But, that does not mean that the body is composed of energy. I that 100% energy or 50% energy and exactly what is energy?

The ability to do things: the ability or power to work or make an effort "His illness left him feeling drained of energy."

Synonyms: vigor, liveliness, get-up-and-go, oomph, dynamism, vitality, drive, verve, vim, élan, go, vivacity Synonyms: power, momentum, strength, force, resources

Is the body not composed of flesh and blood

Ok, with that said, what makes us / humans live or breath “energy†or the breath of life.

HOW DO YOU KNOW FOR A FACT THAT YOUR GOD IS THE ONE TRUE GOD?"
Faith!

Don’t try to reverse the order, I have been asking you over a month to explain your existence and you have not. Now, you are asking about whom mad / created God. Well He has always existed.

I stated that the sky god of the bible is fictional.

Fictional, not factual, but rather, imaginary and invented by its authors (s)

If God is fictional, and He said He created “youâ€. Now, you have to explain how you got here, in other words explain your existence. Are you the product of creation or evolution? Therefore, [if] God is fictional, then everything that we see, hear, touch and smell must be fictional a figment of our imagination. So life itself must me “fictionalâ€

I am guessing, when you received, your first speeding ticket, first time you had sex, your parents, wife, children, job etc; etc are all imaginary and invented by it author. The first time you got your butt kicked in a fight that was fictional, the people dying in the wars that’s all fictional.

I can explain the biblical god very well. unfilled prophecies, the false historical accounts, the unscientific statements, the nonsensical fictionalized miracles…

Please list them, I asked you this before.

Speaking of the flood “againâ€

You have not explained the fish fossil on the mountains. How did they get there, explain the fossils of trees found in the arctic.

You can argue all you like but you still fail to explain about the fossils.

 

[JayRob]

So what’s your point, what you are saying is nothing new! The body has electrical impulses that have been known for decades. But, that does not mean that the body is composed of energy. I that 100% energy or 50% energy and exactly what is energy?

The ability to do things: the ability or power to work or make an effort "His illness left him feeling drained of energy."

Synonyms: vigor, liveliness, get-up-and-go, oomph, dynamism, vitality, drive, verve, vim, élan, go, vivacity Synonyms: power, momentum, strength, force, resources

Is the body not composed of flesh and blood

Ok, with that said, what makes us / humans live or breath “energy†or the breath of life.

Dude, most of those questions you can find the answers yourself if you'd simply do your research. You already admitted that humans have electrical impulses. That's energy in and of itself right there. Electrical impulses are pockets of energy which humans have in EVERY cell.
You should've learned this in Biology 101.

Don’t try to reverse the order, I have been asking you over a month to explain your existence and you have not. Now, you are asking about whom mad / created God. Well He has always existed.

I stated earlier that if you can explain to me "how you know without a doubt that your god is the ONE TRUE god", I'd be more than happy to answer your question, eventhough I've answered it several times.

I also asked you to explain to me who created your god?
Those are two simple questions, yet you continue to avoid answering them. Why is that?

Fictional, not factual, but rather, imaginary and invented by its authors (s)

If God is fictional, and He said He created “youâ€. Now, you have to explain how you got here, in other words explain your existence. Are you the product of creation or evolution? Therefore, [if] God is fictional, then everything that we see, hear, touch and smell must be fictional a figment of our imagination. So life itself must me “fictionalâ€

I'm curious as to how you know for a fact that YOUR personal savior created me, you or anyone else? How do you know this for a fact?

Please list them, I asked you this before.

Dude, I'm not playing your games anymore. If you want the answer to those questions, review my posts. All you have to do is click on JayRob, go to public comments and scroll until you find what you're looking for. It shouldn't be that difficult.
You keep asking for detailed information, yet you can't provide information for two easy questions about your biblical sky god.

Speaking of the flood “againâ€
You have not explained the fish fossil on the mountains. How did they get there, explain the fossils of trees found in the arctic.
You can argue all you like but you still fail to explain about the fossils.

It's quite obvious that you're trying to divert to keep from answering the questions about your biblical god. If you want the answers you asked for, they're under my comments.

Still, you continue answering two simple questions about your god's creator and how you know that your biblical god is the one true god. Can you answer those two simple questions?

I'm curious as to know how you can prove to someone else that your biblical god is the one true god when you can't even explain it yourself? Can you tell me who brought him into existence? If you can't, why should I believe ANYTHING you have to say about him?

 

[Dr H..]

In a nutshell, you believe what you want and the remainder of t he world believe what they desire. You can spell it “god, myth, fairytale” or whatever you desire. But, you have still failed to explain how your existence.

Your scientific data cannot prove God exist. God said I did this and that, neither you or anyone can prove that He did not. In fact, most scientific data prove the existance of a "Superior Being "God"


You said Humans are made up of energy that means that the composition of the human body is “energy” which means the makeup of the body is energy. [Dont be stupid you know] The energy I am speaking of goes along with the definition, not “energy” like something on Star Trek.

Any fool knows this is not true, your body consist of:

Oxygen, Carbon; Hydrogen; Calcium; Phosphorus; Potassium; Sulpher; Chlorine; Sodium; Magnesium; Iron; Copper; Cobalt; Zinc; Iodine and a few other elements. These same elements make up a large part of “dirt”
I am using some form of energy while I am responding to your foolishness.
Energy comes in two basic types: kinetic energy (moving energy) and potential energy (stored energy). Each of these can be subdivided, for example:

Kinetic energy includes:
- motion (for example, a moving car)
- thermal energy (the motion of molecules)
- vibrational energy (such as a vibrating washing machine)
- sound energy (vibration of molecules of a medium, such as air)

Potential energy includes:
- gravitational energy (for example, when an object is raised above the surface of the ground, it gains gravitational energy)
- electrostatic energy (for example, when two charged particles are brought close together, they gain electrostatic energy)
- chemical energy (for example, that stored in petrol, which is released when it is burned)
Another way to look at the types of energy are: -Mechanical energy -Gravitational energy -Thermal energy -Electromagnetic energy -Nuclear energy -Chemical energy A link can be found below to check facts and gather more information.

Potential and kinetic. Picture a large clock's swinging pendulum... At its peak, it is all potential energy. At it's lowest and fastest point, it's all kinetic. Anywhere in between, it's some of one and some of the other. As it falls one way, it gains kinetic energy and loses potential until it begins to rise again, when it loses kinetic and gains potential.

Elementary Physics 101

I'm curious as to how you know for a fact that YOUR personal savior created me, you or anyone else? How do you know this for a fact?

Question: Are you a product of God’s Creation or Theory of Evolution.

Simple question:

Please explain how fish and other sea creatures are found on the top of mountains, in deserts and places like Utah, Colorado and Arizona.

Let’s try it this way

Why are there so many fossil fish?

Of the billions and billions of fossils that are buried just beneath the Earth’s surface, the vast majority are fossil fish. American geologist Dr. John Morris estimates that as much as “95% of all fossils are marine invertebrates, particularly shellfish”1. These fossil fish are found buried atop the highest mountain ranges on the planet.

How did they get up there and why are there so many fossil fish?

There are two opposing perspectives on this: traditional catastrophism and neocatastrophism. Both perspectives derive their discrepant conclusions largely from the same body of evidence which they interpret differently.

Traditional catastrophism says that the Earth has been inundated by a catastrophic deluge sometime in the not too distant past, during and after which billions of organisms were buried in sediments whereby their remains were fossilized. During such a cataclysm, many land animals would float and rot while more marine life settled out with the sediments. This would ensure the preservation of much more marine life in the fossil record.

Neocatastrophism says that different parts of the planet have been submerged and uplifted over the ages. The mountains of today were once submerged and have since uplifted above sea level. This would explain why marine fossils are found atop high-elevation mountain ranges. The abundance of marine fossils in general is explained by the fact that land animals are much more likely to rot or be scavenged than buried in sedimentation while marine life has a better chance of being buried in water-born sediments.

Neocatastrophism is currently the more popular of the two competing perspectives, but that is not to say that traditional catastrophism does not enjoy acceptance by accredited scientists. There is strong evidence in support of a global deluge, like the hundreds of indigenous flood traditions all over the world which purport to document such an event.

Dinosaur Fossils: Sedimentary Rock

Dinosaur fossils, as with other fossils, are found throughout earth's sedimentary layers. To date, approximately 95.0% of all earth's fossil remains are marine invertebrates, 4.74% are plants, 0.25% are land invertebrates (including insects), and 0.0125% are vertebrates. Of the vertebrates, the majority are fish. Moreover, 95% of all land vertebrates found consist of less than one bone. However, billions of fossils have been found. Up to as many as 1,200 dinosaur skeletons have been discovered thus far. Sedimentary rock (sandstone, siltstone, shale, limestone, etc) is primarily laid down by moving water, layer upon layer, in a process known as hydrologic sorting. Animals whose fossil remains are found must have been caught in this running water to have been buried and preserved. The remains would be sorted by density just as the rocks were. If not buried, the carcass would rot or be scavenged. Fossil remains of clams (found in the closed position, indicating they were buried alive) have been found atop Mt. Everest. Sedimentary layers and fossil remains seem to be a testimony to a past marine cataclysm. There are nearly 300 surviving Flood Legends passed down by ancient civilizations. Some suggest Noah's Flood.

Did I forget to mention that:

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, therefore the total sum of energy remains the same.

First Law of Thermodynamics,

Now the question is if the Human Body is made-up of energy, can the body be destroyed or does it change. According, to you [bode is made of energy], the body should not die or age. Why, because of the first law of Thermodynamics.

Yes, the body has "electrical" impulses, as does other living creatures and does my VCR, DVD Player and other electronics [but they are not human].

 

[JayRob]

In a nutshell, you believe what you want and the remainder of the world believe what they desire. You can spell it “god, myth, fairytale†or whatever you desire. But, you have still failed to explain how your existence.

It's not a matter of me guessing that religions are a myth, it's a matter of there being documentation proving that they're myths. No person with an open mind need guess about it in this day and age.

The history of religion clearly proves that Christianity is one of MANY religions to have borrowed or copied from other religions as were most other religions.

Your scientific data cannot prove God exist. God said I did this and that, neither you or anyone can prove that He did not. In fact, most scientific data prove the existance of a "Superior Being "God".

Dude, for the umpteenth time, it's not a matter of a "superior being" being in existence. The issue at hand is whether or not you can prove that YOUR biblical god is that superior being. So far, you can't prove that he is.
I would ask those who believe in other religions the same question about their god and challenge them to do the same thing.

You said Humans are made up of energy that means that the composition of the human body is “energy†which means the makeup of the body is energy. [Dont be stupid you know] The energy I am speaking of goes along with the definition, not “energy†like something on Star Trek.

Any fool knows this is not true, your body consist of:

Oxygen, Carbon; Hydrogen; Calcium; Phosphorus; Potassium; Sulpher; Chlorine; Sodium; Magnesium; Iron; Copper; Cobalt; Zinc; Iodine and a few other elements. These same elements make up a large part of “dirtâ€
I am using some form of energy while I am responding to your foolishness.
Energy comes in two basic types: kinetic energy (moving energy) and potential energy (stored energy). Each of these can be subdivided, for example:

Elementary Physics 101

Did you get that info from this website? LOL!!
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_types_of_energy

If each cell has electrical impulses, why wouldn't the human body be comprised of energy? It takes millions and millions of electrical impulses throughout the body to connect each individual cell to another.
Now how many cells are there in the human body? Between 50 and 75 trillion.

Question: Are you a product of God’s Creation or Theory of Evolution.
Simple question:

When you answer mine, I'll answer yours.

Please explain how fish and other sea creatures are found on the top of mountains, in deserts and places like Utah, Colorado and Arizona.

I already explained that several times. It seems like you might be having frequent bouts of Alzheimer's because you ask the same questions over and over eventhough I've answered them more than once.

Let’s try it this way

Why are there so many fossil fish?

Of the billions and billions of fossils that are buried just beneath the Earth’s surface, the vast majority are fossil fish. American geologist Dr. John Morris estimates that as much as “95% of all fossils are marine invertebrates, particularly shellfishâ€1. These fossil fish are found buried atop the highest mountain ranges on the planet.

How did they get up there and why are there so many fossil fish?

There are two opposing perspectives on this: traditional catastrophism and neocatastrophism. Both perspectives derive their discrepant conclusions largely from the same body of evidence which they interpret differently.

Traditional catastrophism says that the Earth has been inundated by a catastrophic deluge sometime in the not too distant past, during and after which billions of organisms were buried in sediments whereby their remains were fossilized. During such a cataclysm, many land animals would float and rot while more marine life settled out with the sediments. This would ensure the preservation of much more marine life in the fossil record.

Neocatastrophism says that different parts of the planet have been submerged and uplifted over the ages. The mountains of today were once submerged and have since uplifted above sea level. This would explain why marine fossils are found atop high-elevation mountain ranges. The abundance of marine fossils in general is explained by the fact that land animals are much more likely to rot or be scavenged than buried in sedimentation while marine life has a better chance of being buried in water-born sediments.

Neocatastrophism is currently the more popular of the two competing perspectives, but that is not to say that traditional catastrophism does not enjoy acceptance by accredited scientists. There is strong evidence in support of a global deluge, like the hundreds of indigenous flood traditions all over the world which purport to document such an event.

I explained the part in bold a while back on more than one occasion.
The deluge the article refers to is purported to have occurred millions of years ago, not some 6,000.
You can't find one credible article that proves the earth was flooded 4,000 years ago.

Dinosaur Fossils: Sedimentary Rock

Dinosaur fossils, as with other fossils, are found throughout earth's sedimentary layers. To date, approximately 95.0% of all earth's fossil remains are marine invertebrates, 4.74% are plants, 0.25% are land invertebrates (including insects), and 0.0125% are vertebrates. Of the vertebrates, the majority are fish. Moreover, 95% of all land vertebrates found consist of less than one bone. However, billions of fossils have been found. Up to as many as 1,200 dinosaur skeletons have been discovered thus far. Sedimentary rock (sandstone, siltstone, shale, limestone, etc) is primarily laid down by moving water, layer upon layer, in a process known as hydrologic sorting. Animals whose fossil remains are found must have been caught in this running water to have been buried and preserved. The remains would be sorted by density just as the rocks were. If not buried, the carcass would rot or be scavenged. Fossil remains of clams (found in the closed position, indicating they were buried alive) have been found atop Mt. Everest. Sedimentary layers and fossil remains seem to be a testimony to a past marine cataclysm. There are nearly 300 surviving Flood Legends passed down by ancient civilizations. Some suggest Noah's Flood.

And that's all they are, just legends exactly as the article says.
Not one line of your article gives a 4,000 year date as religious people do of a flood. Heck, the biblical folks don't even know where they got a 7,000 year old earth from. It's surely not biblical. Can you tell me where they got it from?

Did I forget to mention that:

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, therefore the total sum of energy remains the same.

First Law of Thermodynamics,

Now the question is if the Human Body is made-up of energy, can the body be destroyed or does it change. According, to you [bode is made of energy], the body should not die or age. Why, because of the first law of Thermodynamics.

The human body IS made up of energy. When the body dies, that energy is not destroyed, it simple changes into another frequency form, which is primarily dirt/minerals, therefore your mentioning the law of thermodynamics is irrelevant and it shows your lack of understanding of the various forms that energy can take at any given time.

By the way, dust/minerals do have individual frequencies, just like a rock or olive oil or rose oil or any physical thing does.

Yes, the body has "electrical" impulses, as does other living creatures and does my VCR, DVD Player and other electronics [but they are not human].

Dude, you first claim that other "living" creatures have electrical impulses, then you say your VCR, DVD player has electrical impulses, then you go on to say, "they are not human". They don't need to be human to have it's own frequency. You making such a statement shows that you don't understand energy and it's different forms depending on the circumstances.

The fact of the matter is that "everything", living or non-living, has it's own electrical frequency, so what you stated is irrelevant.

 

[dacontinent]

Who cares if a million people witnessed such a thing? Was the man medically pronounced as being dead? That's the issue.
Your fraudulent miracle worker couldn't produce one shred of evidence. He had to go halfway around the world to pull such a stunt, in front of people who required no medical documentation. If that's the case, he can raise up a thousand people and be called a great miracle worker...

The medial professionals transporting the patient in the ambulance were qualified to pronounce the man dead. So, if that is the issue, then it should be settled. Furthermore, the mortician is more qualified to determine whether a body is dead or alive than either of us. After affirming the death, the mortician started the embalming process on the body.

Of course, since your expert witness was not on the scene on the other side of the world, you do not have to believe anyone. How could medical facts and eyewitness testimony stand-up to the scrutiny of JayRob?

 

[JayRob]

The medial professionals transporting the patient in the ambulance were qualified to pronounce the man dead. So, if that is the issue, then it should be settled. Furthermore, the mortician is more qualified to determine whether a body is dead or alive than either of us. After affirming the death, the mortician started the embalming process on the body.

Of course, since your expert witness was not on the scene on the other side of the world, you do not have to believe anyone. How could medical facts and eyewitness testimony stand-up to the scrutiny of JayRob?

Where are the medical documents pronouncing his death? Fake deaths and fake miracles come a dime a dozen. For you, a supposed educated person, to simply accept such a story without actual evidence is telling indeed.

Your zeal to try and hold on to anything to support your religion shows how desperate some folks can become, especially when there's nothing to support their claims.

The producers simply requested medical documentation to support the fake healer's claims, yet he could not provide any. It's as simple as that.
Besides, if his sky god raised that person from the dead, why not perform the same miracle among "believers" in this nation where he'd be supervised?

 

[dacontinent]

Where are the medical documents pronouncing his death? Fake deaths and fake miracles come a dime a dozen. For you, a supposed educated person, to simply accept such a story without actual evidence is telling indeed.

Your zeal to try and hold on to anything to support your religion shows how desperate some folks can become, especially when there's nothing to support their claims.

The producers simply requested medical documentation to support the fake healer's claims, yet he could not provide any. It's as simple as that.
Besides, if his sky god raised that person from the dead, why not perform the same miracle among "believers" in this nation where he'd be supervised?

Where do you find that Bonnke performed any healing in this case? Nowhere. Why would Bonnke be required to produce any evidence?

• Dr. Jossy Anuebunwa, graduate of the University of Nigeria and practicing physician for 17 years, pronounced Daniel Ekechukwu dead on November 30, 2001 at St. Eunice's Clinic.
• Darlington Manu, chief mortitian at Ikeduru General Hospital Mortuary (now known as Inyishi Community Hospital Mortuary) and for Imo State, produced the mortuary ledger where the handling is recorded of every corpse that is received. It shows that Daniel Ekechukwu's corpse was received on November 30 and released to his family on December 2. Lab procedures show that embalming fluid was injected in to the fingers of the corpse on December 1.

Again, this resurrection occurred in the same year as the HBO special. Where is the HBO investigation of this case? Wait ... let me guess ... Bonnke's only involvement was the video produced documenting that case.

 

[JayRob]

Where do you find that Bonnke performed any healing in this case? Nowhere. Why would Bonnke be required to produce any evidence?

• Dr. Jossy Anuebunwa, graduate of the University of Nigeria and practicing physician for 17 years, pronounced Daniel Ekechukwu dead on November 30, 2001 at St. Eunice's Clinic.
• Darlington Manu, chief mortitian at Ikeduru General Hospital Mortuary (now known as Inyishi Community Hospital Mortuary) and for Imo State, produced the mortuary ledger where the handling is recorded of every corpse that is received. It shows that Daniel Ekechukwu's corpse was received on November 30 and released to his family on December 2. Lab procedures show that embalming fluid was injected in to the fingers of the corpse on December 1.

Again, this resurrection occurred in the same year as the HBO special. Where is the HBO investigation of this case? Wait ... let me guess ... Bonnke's only involvement was the video produced documenting that case.

Dude, you brought up the article and subject. I simply requested medical documentation. There have been several cases where folks were pronounced as being dead but they weren't.
Serious situations call for serious investigations and verification. This is why religion is given such a bad name. Folks grab and hold on to fables that can't be supported by credible evidence and then wonder why folks question them on it.

Placing embalming fluid in a person's finger is not much medical evidence either. No brain scan, no heart monitoring documentation, no nothing except a list?! Come on Dacon, you know better than this.

Thousands of people have been in temporary comas and have come out of it days later. Without credible medical evidence, this seems to be the case with this person.
Where is the link for this case?

In my short span of life on this earth, I've found time and time again that if something's unusually too good to be true, it usually isn't true at all.

 

[dacontinent]

Dude, you brought up the article and subject. I simply requested medical documentation. There have been several cases where folks were pronounced as being dead but they weren't.
Serious situations call for serious investigations and verification. This is why religion is given such a bad name. Folks grab and hold on to fables that can't be supported by credible evidence and then wonder why folks question them on it.

Placing embalming fluid in a person's finger is not much medical evidence either. No brain scan, no heart monitoring documentation, no nothing except a list?! Come on Dacon, you know better than this.

Thousands of people have been in temporary comas and have come out of it days later. Without credible medical evidence, this seems to be the case with this person.
Where is the link for this case?

In my short span of life on this earth, I've found time and time again that if something's unusually too good to be true, it usually isn't true at all.

I brought up the subject because you contend that things of this kind don't happen.

JayRob, the credentialed and practicing MD - Medical Doctor - of 17 years pronounced him dead and released his body to the mortuary. Whether he showed up on the mortuary list or was injected with embalming fluid was secondary to being DEAD.

Here it is.

Be sure to read all 4 reports.

 

[JayRob]

I brought up the subject because you contend that things of this kind don't happen.

JayRob, the credentialed and practicing MD - Medical Doctor - of 17 years pronounced him dead and released his body to the mortuary. Whether he showed up on the mortuary list or was injected with embalming fluid was secondary to being DEAD.

Here it is.

Be sure to read all 4 reports.

First of all, I don't recall ever saying that it doesn't happen. I stated that the person who does it will become famous on a worldwide basis if he did the SAME things the bible says the Jesus character did.

In one of the articles, it stated the following about an author who was skeptical due to lack of medical evidence:

"The author questions why Daniel’s body didn’t decay and smell after two days. As I have stated in my reports from the facts of my firsthand research, there were obviously miraculous things happening to Daniel’s body while it lay in the mortuary. The mortician twice heard angels singing at night in his mortuary. Could they have been praising God for the great miracle He was about to do, and the important message that would be forthcoming? Is not the God who can resurrect a dead body also able to keep that dead body from decaying for two days?"

"The author asks if the Bishop’s son, Pastor Paul, is an authority on rigor mortis. If not, the author says, then the report of Daniel’s rigor mortis should not have been included in the CFAN report! I would suspect that it wouldn’t take an expert on rigor mortis to determine if someone’s non-breathing body is stiff."

--First of all, no body decay, but the author claims that this is supposed to be part of the miracle as well. How does he know?
--Second, no medical evidence on rigor mortis.
--Third, a man hearing angels singing at night in his mortuary? Perhaps he was on drugs. No evidence, but we're supposed to just take his word on such an unusual case?
--Fourth, why would a non-medical person state that rigor mortis began to set in when he has no medical experience on what rigor mortis is.
--Fifth, just because a person's body is stiff and there are no outward signs of life doesn't prove that there was no life.

Dacon, the bottomline is that in the U.S., we do things a lot different when determining whether or not a person is deceased.
Over here, we require medical documentation proving that a person is deceased. They're put on machines that can detect the slightest heartbeat and/or breathing. They detect the slightest of brainwaves as well. All of that info is documented in black and white.

In Nigeria, they obviously do things differently over there. No medical records in detail, only hearsay. No machines to determine if the person was actually dead and not just in a coma. Where are the medical records of the doctor who supposedly made the claim? Surely he should have them on hand so that others in the medical profession could verify his reasons for making such a claim. Still to this day, no medical evidence.

For someone to simply make outrageous claims with no credible evidence, that's all it is.....an outrageous claim.

You may want to peruse this site for more info:

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bonnke2.html
Here's what's happened to this person on his way to the hospital after the accident:

What church does he pastor? After further investigation, Daniel Ekechukwu (Dan Eke?) is indeed a pastor of the Power Chapel Evangelical Church of Ontisha, Nigeria. Because of this fact I have to posit a very distinct possibility of collusion. Isn't this just too much of a coincidence ... for a church that Bonnke is involved with in Nigeria to have its pastor allegedly die in a car accident and then get raised from the dead by Bonnke, all at a very opportune moment to validate Bonnke's ministry in the face of suits and bad press?

(2) The apparent progression of this bizarre case was:

(a) Transported by ambulance from accident scene
(b) to Federal Medical Center in Boromyuo. Then after Dan Eke protested and said he wanted to be taken to his hometown hospital he was granted this insane request in his alleged condition

(c) and transported over bumpy roads 1 1/2 to 2 hours to Owerri Regional Hospital. Looking for the Eke family doctor, they apparently

(d) moved Dan again to Eunice's Clinic to be declared "dead" by Dr. Jossy Anuebunisa, Daniel’s uncle's (Okoronkwo Emmanuel) doctor who lived near the hospital. Why was a death certificate not given by the Owerri Regional Hospital by the "member of the medical staff" (English CfAN/Charisma story) or "doctor" (German CfAN story) there who allegedly indicated he was dead? Was he really dead OWH? He was then

(e) moved again to his father's house (who is a Mormon) and then

(f) transported to the Ikeduru General Hospital Mortuary. From there he was subsequently

(g) taken to the Bonnke meeting. This guy really got a tour of Nigeria!

(3) His wife was summoned to the Federal Medical Center in Boromyuo, the second stop in his whirlwind tour. Was she with him when he had his accident in the Mercedes? Or did she have to travel 1 1/2 to 2 hours from her home in Ontisha? In either case, why was this not mentioned?

(4) If he had embalming fluid injected into him and he was not dead would it kill him? Not necessarily, according to literature. Embalming fluid is now even being laced with marijuana and shot up by drug addicts because it produces "visual and auditory hallucinations, euphoria, a feeling of invincibility and increased pain tolerance. The high lasts from six hours to three days. " (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_1459000/1459973.stm) Could this be the source of his dream? Could it be that the embalming fluid (or some other "harsh substance"?) put him in a trance and alleviated his pain, then when he was moved all around and to the church he finally came around? Could he have been injected with something else?

(5) The CfAN picture of the casket shows it is likely not a "sealed casket" as is claimed in their article.

 

[dacontinent]

First of all, I don't recall ever saying that it doesn't happen. I stated that the person who does it will become famous on a worldwide basis if he did the SAME things the bible says the Jesus character did.

Indeed, you did. I stand corrected.

--First of all, no body decay, but the author claims that this is supposed to be part of the miracle as well. How does he know?

He doesn't; mere speculation. Fact or not, it has no bearing on whether the man was DEAD.

--Second, no medical evidence on rigor mortis.

Not required for a declaration of death even in the US.

--Third, a man hearing angels singing at night in his mortuary? Perhaps he was on drugs. No evidence, but we're supposed to just take his word on such an unusual case?

Perhaps. It has no bearing on whether or not the man was DEAD.

--Fourth, why would a non-medical person state that rigor mortis began to set in when he has no medical experience on what rigor mortis is.

Opportunity.

--Fifth, just because a person's body is stiff and there are no outward signs of life doesn't prove that there was no life.

The MD did his job.

JayRob, the bottom line is that a certified Medical Doctor in Nigeria declared the body dead after the medical examination. There was no reason for the doctor to say, "I need to use some extra tools because this guy might be resurrected and I'm going to need printouts and graphs to prove that there was no heartbeat, pulse, or respirations". I have been on duty in hospitals here in the US when bodies were brought in ambulatory with no vitals and watched doctors make the same assessment. It IS NOT required in the US. It is primarily done in this country for reasons of plausible deniability when malpractice attorneys go on the prowl. What is required in the US is a certification by the office of the Medical Examiner AFTER the assessment has been made by another medical professional. MD's are pretty good at determining whether a person is dead.

The site you posted shows the determination of death. Everything else is a series of why not this or that. Nothing but speculation and a story contrived of what was possible to have occurred. No trips to ask the persons involved. No investigations into the practice of medicine in Nigeria or the role of medical examiners. Nothing ... except speculation.

 

[JayRob]

He doesn't; mere speculation. Fact or not, it has no bearing on whether the man was DEAD.

Still, no evidence.

Not required for a declaration of death even in the US.

Then it's hearsay and you have to take the word of a doctor you know nothing about whose halfway around the world.

The MD did his job.

Are you 100 percent sure? If so, how?

JayRob, the bottom line is that a certified Medical Doctor in Nigeria declared the body dead after the medical examination. There was no reason for the doctor to say, "I need to use some extra tools because this guy might be resurrected and I'm going to need printouts and graphs to prove that there was no heartbeat, pulse, or respirations".

It seems that you completely ignored the findings mentioned in my previous post. Here are some crucial points to take into consideration:

--What church does he pastor? After further investigation, Daniel Ekechukwu (Dan Eke?) is indeed a pastor of the Power Chapel Evangelical Church of Ontisha, Nigeria. Because of this fact I have to posit a very distinct possibility of collusion. Isn't this just too much of a coincidence ... for a church that Bonnke is involved with in Nigeria to have its pastor allegedly die in a car accident and then get raised from the dead by Bonnke, all at a very opportune moment to validate Bonnke's ministry in the face of suits and bad press?

The part in bold is a HUGE coincidence indeed and wreaks of suspicion. Out of ALL the churchs in Nigeria, this dude dies just when Bonnke's HAPPENS to be doing his revival that week. LOL!!

--(2) The apparent progression of this bizarre case was:

(a) Transported by ambulance from accident scene
(b) to Federal Medical Center in Boromyuo. Then after Dan Eke protested and said he wanted to be taken to his hometown hospital he was granted this insane request in his alleged condition

(c) and transported over bumpy roads 1 1/2 to 2 hours to Owerri Regional Hospital. Looking for the Eke family doctor, they apparently

(d) moved Dan again to Eunice's Clinic to be declared "dead" by Dr. Jossy Anuebunisa, Daniel’s uncle's (Okoronkwo Emmanuel) doctor who lived near the hospital. Why was a death certificate not given by the Owerri Regional Hospital by the "member of the medical staff" (English CfAN/Charisma story) or "doctor" (German CfAN story) there who allegedly indicated he was dead? Was he really dead OWH?

The man insisted that he be moved from a FEDERAL hospital, to a clinic, two hours away, where his UNCLE happened to be the medical examiner?! This wreaks of fraud to it's very core and seems like a half-baked thought out plan. Why move a dying man (IF he was dying) from a national hospital to a clinic? That's crazy. No marks, no serious bruising or injuries and no evidence of trauma was found anywhere on the man's body. How can this be if the man was in a serious auto accident?
Why didn't the Regional hospital not issue him a death certificate?

He was then
(e) moved again to his father's house (who is a Mormon) and then
(f) transported to the Ikeduru General Hospital Mortuary. From there he was subsequently
(g) taken to the Bonnke meeting. This guy really got a tour of Nigeria!

(3) His wife was summoned to the Federal Medical Center in Boromyuo, the second stop in his whirlwind tour. Was she with him when he had his accident in the Mercedes? Or did she have to travel 1 1/2 to 2 hours from her home in Ontisha? In either case, why was this not mentioned?

(4) If he had embalming fluid injected into him and he was not dead would it kill him? Not necessarily, according to literature. Embalming fluid is now even being laced with marijuana and shot up by drug addicts because it produces "visual and auditory hallucinations, euphoria, a feeling of invincibility and increased pain tolerance. The high lasts from six hours to three days. " (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/hea...00/1459973.stm) Could this be the source of his dream? Could it be that the embalming fluid (or some other "harsh substance"?) put him in a trance and alleviated his pain, then when he was moved all around and to the church he finally came around? Could he have been injected with something else?

(5) The CfAN picture of the casket shows it is likely not a "sealed casket" as is claimed in their article.

The site you posted shows the determination of death. Everything else is a series of why not this or that. Nothing but speculation and a story contrived of what was possible to have occurred. No trips to ask the persons involved. No investigations into the practice of medicine in Nigeria or the role of medical examiners. Nothing ... except speculation.

And what do you have? The word of a doctor whose a relative of the pastor who died, who has a church affiliated with Bonnke, who has a history of fraud? You want someone to not question this man's dealings and those associated with him? You're welcomed to such gullibility but I respectfully decline.

Religion drives people to make such outlandish claims, but when a magnifying glass is put to those claims, they're often proven to be fraudulent. This seems to be the case.

 

[dacontinent]

I hope this will help.

Nigeria is different from the US. How different is it when it comes to the role of the medical examiner? I have not seen anyone mention that at all. The question that should be asked (and I haven't seen) is whether Dr. Anuebunwa followed procedures in compliance with Nigerian law. If he did, then all of the other points are profoundly moot and Daniel Ekechukwu was dead.

We accept the word of qualified doctors the world over until it goes against some point that we are arguing. Where I come from that is called talking out of both sides of one's mouth. Based on what is US law, Dr. Anuebunwa did his job. Hearsay is contending otherwise.

Dead is dead, sir. Make no mistake about it.

The rest of what you posted, I have now read twice. Here are some prominent keywords:

• possibility of collusion
• coincidence
• suspicion
• apparent progression

And what DO you have? A good deal of speculation with zero investigation. A judge would summarily dismiss you. Detractors want to question eyewitness testimony without investigating anything to the contrary. You've spoken often about court procedure and evidence ... would this even get brought to a courtroom based on what you have?

Where is the magnifying glass to prove this fraudulent? Speculation won't get the task done.

 

[JayRob]

I hope this will help.

Nigeria is different from the US. How different is it when it comes to the role of the medical examiner? I have not seen anyone mention that at all. The question that should be asked (and I haven't seen) is whether Dr. Anuebunwa followed procedures in compliance with Nigerian law. If he did, then all of the other points are profoundly moot and Daniel Ekechukwu was dead.

We accept the word of qualified doctors the world over until it goes against some point that we are arguing. Where I come from that is called talking out of both sides of one's mouth. Based on what is US law, Dr. Anuebunwa did his job. Hearsay is contending otherwise.

Dead is dead, sir. Make no mistake about it.

The rest of what you posted, I have now read twice. Here are some prominent keywords:

• possibility of collusion
• coincidence
• suspicion
• apparent progression

And what DO you have? A good deal of speculation with zero investigation. A judge would summarily dismiss you. Detractors want to question eyewitness testimony without investigating anything to the contrary. You've spoken often about court procedure and evidence ... would this even get brought to a courtroom based on what you have?

Where is the magnifying glass to prove this fraudulent? Speculation won't get the task done.

I could say the exact same thing about your claims. Based on Bonnke's history, what person in his right mind would even consider the outlandish claims he makes?

It's obvious the man's death wasn't in immediate jeopardy or the hospital wouldn't have discharged the man.
Would a hospital discharge a dying man to go two hours to a clinic? Is this ethical? Would this have violated the code of ethics in the medical profession?

Would that happen in the U.S.? Not likely because the hospital could be sued and there is more oversite and accountability of the profession in this nation than in Nigeria.
THIS is why Nigeria's medical system is different from that of the U.S..

If your claim, that this man was raised from the dead, with the baggage added on as to how he was raised from the dead, there's a strong possibility that your case would be dismissed due to fraudulence, primarily because of the history of this Bonnke person making the claim.

Come on Dacon, you can't be this easily convinced by such questionable tactics and evidence.
Out of ALL the folks making such a claim, you're believing this Bonnke person, who has a history of making false claims?

Bonnke is popular in Africa because he taps into the continents old religious superstitions and they do have their share of religious superstitions.

Here's an example:

--"As with most of such healing claims, when pressed for evidences, there is either silence...or castigation that any should question such an 'anointed one' as Bonnke. In 1999 we were able to view a video produced by Bonnke's ministry. It detailed what many believe is the most convincing miraculous healing of modern times. The 'healing' of a Jean Neil appeared to be well documented until an investigation by a British Christian surgeon exposed gross inaccuracies, (see Diakrisis, Dec/99, P.5,6). Bonnke was asked to take the video off the market but today this fraudulent video still deceives many."

--Here are excerpts from another article that completely disputes this resurrection:

Before I left the house, I called the younger brother of Daniel, Mr. Kingsley Ekechukwu, whom was reportedly involved in the auto crash that had injured Daniel. I asked him to tell me exactly what happened. Kingsley told me that after the auto crash, Daniel had been taken to Charles Borromeo Hospital—a popular clinic in Onitsha. While there, Daniel had complained of “spiritual attacks,†and requested that he be transferred to a private clinic in Owerri, which is about 80 kilometers from Onitsha.

On their way to Owerri that Friday, Kingsley said, Daniel stopped breathing. Upon their arrival at the clinic, the doctor advised them to take Daniel’s body to the hospital. His body was deposited in a local mortuary on that same day. Kingsley informed me that on Saturday night, Daniel’s wife, Nneka, had a dream and was instructed to take Daniel’s body to the Rev. Bonnke, who was then visiting Onitsha for prayers. Kingsley said that he had had a similar dream.

The following Sunday they had gone to collect Daniel’s body. At the mortuary, Kingsley said the mortician was complaining that Daniel had been disturbing him and had not allowed him to sleep for two days. The mortician had related that on the night that Daniel’s body had been deposited in the morgue, he heard people singing. When he went to investigate, however, the singing stopped.

Kingsley further stated that on Saturday night something pushed him and caused him to hit his head on the wall as he attempted to embalm Daniel’s body. For this reason, he did not embalm Daniel’s corpse. According to Kingsley, they transported Daniel’s body to Bonnke’s meeting in Onitsha that Sunday. There, Daniel was revived during a prayer session. To confirm what he had said earlier, I asked Kingsley if Daniel’s body had been injected with embalming fluid. He answered, “no!â€

Personally, I do not believe that Daniel Ekechukwu ever died. First, Kingsley confirmed that Daniel’s body had not been injected with embalming fluid. According to medical experts I interviewed, however, a corpse should have a strong odor and the abdomen should be swollen after three days if it is not embalmed. Judging from the photo of Daniel when he was said to have been at the mortuary, and according to the testimony of his brother, this was not the case.

Second, it is unlikely that any doctor certified Daniel’s death at Owerri. Third, it is hard to believe the actions that supposedly transpired after Daniel’s request to be transferred. It all sounds like a mishmash of lies and fantasies.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/aah/igwe_11_3.htm

 

[Dr H..]

Are you sure you are a college graduate, you makes as much sense as a bag of dead frogs.


Have you ever taken a course in physics, anatomy or chemistry? So are you are saying, energy is changing from one form to another? How can the Laws of Thermodynamic be ignored, when they are directly related to energy.

You only have a few forms of energy, which one does the body consist of:
Energy comes in the following forms: kinetic, potential, thermal (heat), chemical, electrical / / electrochemical , electromagnetic, sound, and nuclear energy.

Which one does the human body consist of?

Energy is always conserved, it is never created or destroyed - this is called the First Law of Thermodynamics. Thus, when an object does work on another object, the energy can only be converted and/or transferred, but never lost or generated anew.

So when a person dies, is the body destroyed. When a person is burned in a house is the body destroyed. When organs cease to function “they are useless†would you agree? What about a fetus, if its energy like you said, please explain why the unborn child dies, once the child dies does that child exist.

Ok, looking at what you are saying, body dies – goes back to dirt [is that not what the bible teach].

Based on your comments, are you saying because the human body is made-up of energy, the body cannot be destroyed. If that’s the case, neither can it be created.

Ok, when a person have an infection, what happens to the tissue, if left untreated does it remain the same or is it destroyed. There was a pilot during the Viet Nam War that was shot down and suffered from a broken leg, it later became infected, he ate his own flesh [maggots] was his flesh destroyed.

Animals and plants contain a certain amount of energy once they are consumed by human are they the same, what happen to them once they are digested and discharged via the human body, do they continue to exist.

"superior being" being in existence

Yes, it matter, because you cannot prove that God, does not exist. He has already proven Himself. It’s up to you to prove that He does not exist. The question is, He said that He created the heavens and the earth, now dose heaven and earth exist? Yes, now you have to prove that He did not and the source of what we see as the heaven and earth.

He said that He made trees, flowers, created animals etc, etc, etc. Question does these "things" exist. The answer is simple Yes or No. If they do not, you have proven that "God" is a lier and He does not exist. However, as you look around and "feely" admit yes these things exist. You have to admit that "God" does exist as He say He does as being the creator, if not you have to explain the source of the creation, it's just that simple.

Not from a website, from my Biology and Chemistry Books

Here it is, you cannot answer my question about your / our existence, because you are trapped like a mouse in a corner with the question. In the backof your mind you are saying I was created by God [Bible Names], it must be, because I cannot explain how I got here. I know I am not a figment of my own imagination. I am a created being, therefore there must be a YAHW a creator, superior being. I answered your question, where did God come from and the answer is “He always existed†asking where He came from and such like questions is like asking “What does air smell like, what does the color red feel like, what does air look like. There are some things that cannot be explained, but you know it / they exist.

The Bible says that He has always existed: " . . . even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Psalm 90:2). And, "Your throne is established from of old; Thou art from everlasting" (Psalm 93:2). Quite simply, God has no beginning and no end. So, where did God come from? He didn't. He always was an will always be.

Now anything, beyond those answers, you will have to ask Him!

Now answer my question about your existance. Are you part of the “Big Bang Theoryâ€

Alzheimer's “My Buttâ€

you never answered the question: So you are telling me that the fossils of fish maliciously appeared on Mount Everest; In the Gobi Desert; In Dinosaur National Park and leaves of now extent trees just appeared in the Arctic and Antarctic.

The deluge the article refers to is purported to have occurred millions of years ago, not some 6,000

So are you agreeing that there was a worldwide flood?

 

[dacontinent]

I could say the exact same thing about your claims. Based on Bonnke's history, what person in his right mind would even consider the outlandish claims he makes?
...
If your claim, that this man was raised from the dead, with the baggage added on as to how he was raised from the dead, there's a strong possibility that your case would be dismissed due to fraudulence, primarily because of the history of this Bonnke person making the claim.

Really. Here they are:

• Daniel Ekechukwu was in a car crash.
• He was taken to by ambulance to the Federal Hospital in Nigeria.
• He wanted to be examined by his regular physician and requested to be transported to the St. Eunice's Clinic.
• His request was granted and he died en route.
• He was declared DOA at St. Eunice's Clinic after being examined by said physician.
• His remains were turned over to the mortuary. On the next day (+1) the remains received an injection of embalming fluid between the fingers.
• On the following day (+2) his remains were taken to the church in Onitsha, during which time he revived.

Those are the simple facts with a myriad of eyewitnesses to support each action taken.

For some reason you seem to want to make this about Bonnke. It's not about Bonnke. His only involvement was with the documentation and subsequent preaching. The people who were involved in the actual ministry were the wife and the ministers who received the corpse into the basement of the church.

It's obvious the man's death wasn't in immediate jeopardy or the hospital wouldn't have discharged the man.
Would a hospital discharge a dying man to go two hours to a clinic? Is this ethical? Would this have violated the code of ethics in the medical profession?

Would that happen in the U.S.? Not likely because the hospital could be sued and there is more oversite and accountability of the profession in this nation than in Nigeria.
THIS is why Nigeria's medical system is different from that of the U.S..

It seems that I must have more experience in emergency rooms in the US than you do. The only thing that you need to be released from treatment in an emergency room in the US is the signature of the patient or the person having his power of attorney. That absolves the hospital of any liability.

Come on Dacon, you can't be this easily convinced by such questionable tactics and evidence.

I have evidence to believe. You have only questions and suppositions. If we both bring what we have to a courtroom, what I have completely overwhelms what you have.

Then again, you have introduced the younger brother of Daniel as a mortician. Where did that come from?

 

[JayRob]

Have you ever taken a course in physics, anatomy or chemistry? So are you are saying, energy is changing from one form to another? How can the Laws of Thermodynamic be ignored, when they are directly related to energy.

You only have a few forms of energy, which one does the body consist of:
Energy comes in the following forms: kinetic, potential, thermal (heat), chemical, electrical / / electrochemical , electromagnetic, sound, and nuclear energy.

Dude, you just answered your own question. You just mentioned several forms of energy. Everything has it's own frequency. Energy requires frequency. The environment oftentimes determines the state and frequency of the body or object in question.

Which one does the human body consist of?

Energy is always conserved, it is never created or destroyed - this is called the First Law of Thermodynamics. Thus, when an object does work on another object, the energy can only be converted and/or transferred, but never lost or generated anew.

So when a person dies, is the body destroyed. When a person is burned in a house is the body destroyed. When organs cease to function “they are useless” would you agree? What about a fetus, if its energy like you said, please explain why the unborn child dies, once the child dies does that child exist.

The form of energy the body takes depends on the situation. A dead body has a different form of energy than does a living body. Everything consists of energy including a cremated body. It's merely in a different form or powdered state, but it still has it's own frequency.

Ok, looking at what you are saying, body dies – goes back to dirt [is that not what the bible teach].

No half way educated person needs any bible to tell him that. All one has to do is dig up an ancient grave and look at the remains. What does it consist of? Powdered dirt. The bible reveals nothing new in this area.

Based on your comments, are you saying because the human body is made-up of energy, the body cannot be destroyed. If that’s the case, neither can it be created.

The body is in a different form regardless of whether it's alive or dead. Eventhough the body might be dead, it still has energy, albeit much less than a live one, and it has it's own frequency.

Ok, when a person have an infection, what happens to the tissue, if left untreated does it remain the same or is it destroyed. There was a pilot during the Viet Nam War that was shot down and suffered from a broken leg, it later became infected, he ate his own flesh [maggots] was his flesh destroyed.

Animals and plants contain a certain amount of energy once they are consumed by human are they the same, what happen to them once they are digested and discharged via the human body, do they continue to exist.

Dead tissue and dead animals have there own frequency eventhough it's in a different form or state of being. Eventhough it's no longer living, it still has a frequency.

"superior being" being in existence

Yes, it matter, because you cannot prove that God, does not exist. He has already proven Himself. It’s up to you to prove that He does not exist. The question is, He said that He created the heavens and the earth, now dose heaven and earth exist? Yes, now you have to prove that He did not and the source of what we see as the heaven and earth.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You claim that your biblical sky god created everything and that he's the one true god. I merely asked that you prove it. So far, you haven't and I highly doubt that you can.

He said that He made trees, flowers, created animals etc, etc, etc. Question does these "things" exist. The answer is simple Yes or No. If they do not, you have proven that "God" is a lier and He does not exist. However, as you look around and "feely" admit yes these things exist. You have to admit that "God" does exist as He say He does as being the creator, if not you have to explain the source of the creation, it's just that simple.

Other gods made/make the same claim. Who are you to say that either of those gods isn't the one true god who created the trees, flowers, etc.? What gives you the right to give credit to your god, while discrediting the hundreds of gods of other religions? Sounds like a bunch of puffed up arrogance to me.
Am I just supposed to take your word that your biblical sky is who you claim he is without proof?

Here it is, you cannot answer my question about your / our existence, because you are trapped like a mouse in a corner with the question. In the backof your mind you are saying I was created by God [Bible Names], it must be, because I cannot explain how I got here. I know I am not a figment of my own imagination. I am a created being, therefore there must be a YAHW a creator, superior being. I answered your question, where did God come from and the answer is “He always existed” asking where He came from and such like questions is like asking “What does air smell like, what does the color red feel like, what does air look like. There are some things that cannot be explained, but you know it / they exist.

--No, it's YOU who are trapped like a mouse. You can't prove that your god is anymore real than a Hindu, Muslim, Egyptian can about their god. You merely have words on pieces of paper in a book that have been COPIED from previous religions, yet you want me to believe the bible?
Unlike you, I think with the brain I have. I've decided to no longer observe a religion simply because that's what my parents, relatives, friends, etc., observed. I desire evidence verifying such. So far, I've found just the opposite.

--How can something always exist? How can your god come from nothing? You asked the same question about the creation and how it can come from nothing?
I'm asking YOU, how can your biblical sky god come from "nothing"?

The Bible says that He has always existed: " . . . even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Psalm 90:2). And, "Your throne is established from of old; Thou art from everlasting" (Psalm 93:2). Quite simply, God has no beginning and no end. So, where did God come from? He didn't. He always was an will always be.

Still, that doesn't answer the question as to where he came from and what brought him into existence. Who or what brought him into existence? Did he just come from nothing?
If that's the case, then why couldn't the universe just come from nothing? If your sky god came from nothing, then that means the universe can come from nothing.

Now anything, beyond those answers, you will have to ask Him!

Your sky god is nowhere around, so I will continue to ask you. Anything beyond that you CAN'T answer, and you KNOW you can't.
In other words, you don't know where your fictitious god came from or who brought him into existence anymore than I do.

Now answer my question about your existance. Are you part of the “Big Bang Theory”

Until you tell me who brought your biblical god into existence and where he came from, don't expect an answer from me, eventhough I've answered the questions several times.

Alzheimer's “My Butt”

you never answered the question: So you are telling me that the fossils of fish maliciously appeared on Mount Everest; In the Gobi Desert; In Dinosaur National Park and leaves of now extent trees just appeared in the Arctic and Antarctic.

If you were any kind of a researcher, you would've long ago reviewed my posts and found where I answered that question. If you can't do that, then it's too bad. Tighten up on your research.

So are you agreeing that there was a worldwide flood?

Dude, re-read my posts and that'll tell you. You keep asking redundant and elementary-type questions I've already answered as if you can't remember. You must have some form of Alzheimers or you simply choose to forget.

 

[JayRob]

Really. Here they are:

• Daniel Ekechukwu was in a car crash.
• He was taken to by ambulance to the Federal Hospital in Nigeria.
• He wanted to be examined by his regular physician and requested to be transported to the St. Eunice's Clinic.
• His request was granted and he died en route.
• He was declared DOA at St. Eunice's Clinic after being examined by said physician.
• His remains were turned over to the mortuary. On the next day (+1) the remains received an injection of embalming fluid between the fingers.
• On the following day (+2) his remains were taken to the church in Onitsha, during which time he revived.

Those are the simple facts with a myriad of eyewitnesses to support each action taken.

Upon further investigation, those are not the facts. I have no idea why your'e trying to prop up this fraudulent person named Bonnke. It boggles my mind.

Here are the facts you conveniently left out of your post:

Bonnke is popular in Africa because he taps into the continents old religious superstitions and they do have their share of religious superstitions.

Here's an example:

--"As with most of such healing claims, when pressed for evidences, there is either silence...or castigation that any should question such an 'anointed one' as Bonnke. In 1999 we were able to view a video produced by Bonnke's ministry. It detailed what many believe is the most convincing miraculous healing of modern times. The 'healing' of a Jean Neil appeared to be well documented until an investigation by a British Christian surgeon exposed gross inaccuracies, (see Diakrisis, Dec/99, P.5,6). Bonnke was asked to take the video off the market but today this fraudulent video still deceives many."

--Here are excerpts from another article that completely disputes this resurrection of Mr. Daniel Eke.
The interviewer is a reporter from a local Humanist Society who wanted nothing more than to verify the resurrection claims and what led up to the alleged resurrection:

Before I left the house, I called the younger brother of Daniel, Mr. Kingsley Ekechukwu, whom was reportedly involved in the auto crash that had injured Daniel. I asked him to tell me exactly what happened.
Kingsley told me that after the auto crash, Daniel had been taken to Charles Borromeo Hospital—a popular clinic in Onitsha. While there, Daniel had complained of “spiritual attacks,” and requested that he be transferred to a private clinic in Owerri, which is about 80 kilometers (2 hours) from Onitsha.

On their way to Owerri that Friday, Kingsley said, Daniel stopped breathing. Upon their arrival at the clinic, the doctor advised them to take Daniel’s body to the hospital. His body was deposited in a local mortuary on that same day. Kingsley informed me that on Saturday night, Daniel’s wife, Nneka, had a dream and was instructed to take Daniel’s body to the Rev. Bonnke, who was then visiting Onitsha for prayers. Kingsley said that he had had a similar dream.

The following Sunday they had gone to collect Daniel’s body. At the mortuary, Kingsley said the mortician was complaining that Daniel had been disturbing him and had not allowed him to sleep for two days. The mortician had related that on the night that Daniel’s body had been deposited in the morgue, he heard people singing. When he went to investigate, however, the singing stopped.

Kingsley further stated that on Saturday night something pushed him and caused him to hit his head on the wall as he attempted to embalm Daniel’s body. For this reason, he did not embalm Daniel’s corpse.
According to Kingsley, they transported Daniel’s body to Bonnke’s meeting in Onitsha that Sunday. There, Daniel was revived during a prayer session. To confirm what he had said earlier, I asked Kingsley if Daniel’s body had been injected with embalming fluid. He answered, “no!”

Personally, I do not believe that Daniel Ekechukwu ever died. First, Kingsley confirmed that Daniel’s body had not been injected with embalming fluid. According to medical experts I interviewed, however, a corpse should have a strong odor and the abdomen should be swollen after three days if it is not embalmed. Judging from the photo of Daniel when he was said to have been at the mortuary, and according to the testimony of his brother, this was not the case.

Second, it is unlikely that any doctor certified Daniel’s death at Owerri. Third, it is hard to believe the actions that supposedly transpired after Daniel’s request to be transferred. It all sounds like a mishmash of lies and fantasies.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/libra.../igwe_11_3.htm

For some reason you seem to want to make this about Bonnke. It's not about Bonnke. His only involvement was with the documentation and subsequent preaching. The people who were involved in the actual ministry were the wife and the ministers who received the corpse into the basement of the church.

Not true. According to the article, the supposedly dead body was taken to Bonnke's meeting where it supposedly was resurrected. This proves that Bonnke's was directly involved.

It seems that I must have more experience in emergency rooms in the US than you do. The only thing that you need to be released from treatment in an emergency room in the US is the signature of the patient or the person having his power of attorney. That absolves the hospital of any liability.

That's IF the person is not in danger of dying. It's obvious that this wasn't the case with Daniel Eke or his body wouldn't have been dragged two and half hours to a clinic where they didn't even bother to grant him a death certificate.

I have evidence to believe. You have only questions and suppositions. If we both bring what we have to a courtroom, what I have completely overwhelms what you have.

You have nothing but hearsay. According to the article, it raises serious questions as to the validity of the claims. There's no death certificate, no embalming fluid, a picture of the body after three days, with no swollen stomach, no rigor mortis setting in, and no smell after three days.
There was alleged singing in the mortuary by someone, eventhough the only live person there was the mortician. LOL!!
Who hit the mortician over the head when he tried to insert embalming fluid? An angel? LOL!!
The more I research this story, the funnier and sadder it gets.

Then again, you have introduced the younger brother of Daniel as a mortician. Where did that come from?

No, the doctor who pronounced him dead was a relative.

There are so many holes in this story, you can drive a truck through it. With the history of this Bonnke person, you can almost bet that this was a fraudulent attempt to pull an orchestrated fake resurrection in a small third world town full of superstition and quackery.

 

[dacontinent]

Not true. According to the article, the supposedly dead body was taken to Bonnke's meeting where it supposedly was resurrected. This proves that Bonnke's was directly involved.

Your logic is failing you. The body was taken to St. Eunice's Clinic but you question their direct involvement in the declaration of death. Why is that?

That's IF the person is not in danger of dying. It's obvious that this wasn't the case with Daniel Eke or his body wouldn't have been dragged two and half hours to a clinic where they didn't even bother to grant him a death certificate.

That is 100% incorrect. The hospital is only required to stabilize you and advise you.

You have nothing but hearsay. According to the article, it raises serious questions as to the validity of the claims. There's no death certificate, no embalming fluid, a picture of the body after three days, with no swollen stomach, no rigor mortis setting in, and no smell after three days.
There was alleged singing in the mortuary by someone, eventhough the only live person there was the mortician. LOL!!
Who hit the mortician over the head when he tried to insert embalming fluid? An angel? LOL!!
The more I research this story, the funnier and sadder it gets.

Hearsay? Eyewitness testimony is not hearsay and you know it.

• If there was no death certificate, then the link that you posted, that at least investigated that much, is incorrect in its assessment.
• In one post you accurately say that embalming fluid in the fingers is not enough to embalm the body and that it is done recreationally. Now you say there was no embalming fluid.
• There is no forensic assessment of rigor mortis at all.

...No, the doctor who pronounced him dead was a relative.

Perhaps you need me to refresh your memory.

...Before I left the house, I called the younger brother of Daniel, Mr. Kingsley Ekechukwu, whom was reportedly involved in the auto crash that had injured Daniel. ...

...Kingsley further stated that on Saturday night something pushed him and caused him to hit his head on the wall as he attempted to embalm Daniel’s body. For this reason, he did not embalm Daniel’s corpse. According to Kingsley, they transported Daniel’s body to Bonnke’s meeting in Onitsha that Sunday. There, Daniel was revived during a prayer session. To confirm what he had said earlier, I asked Kingsley if Daniel’s body had been injected with embalming fluid. He answered, “no!”

If the him above is Kingsley, then someone made him a mortician; if it is instead the mortician, then what is attributed to Kingsley IS hearsay by definition. Which is it?

There are so many holes in this story, you can drive a truck through it. With the history of this Bonnke person, you can almost bet that this was a fraudulent attempt to pull an orchestrated fake resurrection in a small third world town full of superstition and quackery.

And all you offer is "almost bet". You can't even convince yourself. I understand. You would have to lie to yourself in order to do that.

 

[Dr H..]

JR

So what you are saying is the Law of Thermodynamics does not apply?

Would you agree that energy can not be created or destroyed. Most living objects has a frequency. So when a person dies he / she continues to emit a frequency is this what you are saying.

So what type of energy does a dead body [human or animal] have?

With the differents of energy mention, I ask again what type of energy does the human body consist of?


kinetic
potential
thermal (heat)
chemical
electrical
electrochemical
electromagnetic
sound
nuclear energy

Questions:

Can the human body function on its own with out the intake of food or water? And what is the purpose of food and water

You said the body is made of energy

the bible said [flesh and blood] if you are cut, do you release energy or blood.

Also, tell us what energy look like, if you examine the various forms of energy, you cannot tell me what they look like, can you tell me what solar, nuclear or sound energy look like, you can describe the effects of each, but you cannot tell me what energy look like. On the other hand you can describe "yourself" we see flesh, bones and blood. If you were made of energy, you would be invisiable, just like sound, nuclear or electrical energy. Is energy, black, white or green with eyes, arms, legs or ears.​

 

[JayRob]

Your logic is failing you. The body was taken to St. Eunice's Clinic but you question their direct involvement in the declaration of death. Why is that?

His relative declared him dead. The hospital didn't issue a death certificate.

That is 100% incorrect. The hospital is only required to stabilize you and advise you.

That's my point, if he was stabilized, he wouldn't have died two hours later. It's quite obvious that he must have been stable, so what caused his death IF he was stable when he left.
Where are the scars, the injuries that actually caused his death? Nothing has surfaced regarding this matter.

Hearsay? Eyewitness testimony is not hearsay and you know it.

• If there was no death certificate, then the link that you posted, that at least investigated that much, is incorrect in its assessment.

• 
  
  I simply quoted what the interviewer stated. He stated what was said to him by the brother of the supposed dead man.
  
  

  [*]In one post you accurately say that embalming fluid in the fingers is not enough to embalm the body and that it is done recreationally. Now you say there was no embalming fluid.

  
  How do you even know it was accurate? All you're doing is going by what your article stated. You're in essence doing the same exact thing I'm doing.
  
  

  [*]There is no forensic assessment of rigor mortis at all.

  
  There was no smell, no swollen stomach, both evidence of rigor mortis.
  
  

  Perhaps you need me to refresh your memory.
  

  ​

  If the him above is Kingsley, then someone made him a mortician; if it is instead the mortician, then what is attributed to Kingsley IS hearsay by definition. Which is it?

  
  The same can be said for your situation as well. In other words, the burden of proof is on you and so far you haven't produced, especially with Bonnke's history.
  
  

  And all you offer is "almost bet". You can't even convince yourself. I understand. You would have to lie to yourself in order to do that.

  
  What do you offer? Faith in a person with a history of fraud? Faith in what uneducated superstitious folks tell you is all that you have.
  The only reason you believe in this story is because a Christian made the claim. If a Muslim claimed that Allah raised the same person, under the same circumstances, you would definitely have your doubts and questions about it.

 

[JayRob]

JR

So what you are saying is the Law of Thermodynamics does not apply?

Would you agree that energy can not be created or destroyed. Most living objects has a frequency. So when a person dies he / she continues to emit a frequency is this what you are saying.

So what type of energy does a dead body [human or animal] have?

With the differents of energy mention, I ask again what type of energy does the human body consist of?


kinetic
potential
thermal (heat)
chemical
electrical
electrochemical
electromagnetic
sound
nuclear energy

Dude, you're asking questions I've already answered. I stated that the type of energy or frequency depends on the situation.

Questions:

Can the human body function on its own with out the intake of food or water? And what is the purpose of food and water

What do you think?
Can the human spirit function without food or water? What is it made up?

You said the body is made of energy

the bible said [flesh and blood] if you are cut, do you release energy or blood.​

This just shows you how far behind the bible is in comparison to modern science. Blood is composed of frequency and energy, so science goes much deeper than the bible ever could.

Also, tell us what energy look like, if you examine the various forms of energy, you cannot tell me what they look like, can you tell me what solar, nuclear or sound energy look like, you can describe the effects of each, but you cannot tell me what energy look like.

You tell me what energy looks like. What does that have to with anything. Energy is measured with via an MRI, EEG or mammography. All of them measure some type of energy. This alone is enough evidence to show that the body is made of energy and frequency.

On the other hand you can describe "yourself" we see flesh, bones and blood. If you were made of energy, you would be invisiable, just like sound, nuclear or electrical energy. Is energy, black, white or green with eyes, arms, legs or ears

What does a MRI measure? It can measure frequency in every part of the body. If the entire body is not made of energy/frequency, what is it measuring to begin with?

What does a doctor use to measure brainwaves? An EEG. This is another machine that measure energy and frequency, but only in the brain. Why and how? Because the brain is made of frequency and energy as well.
The above prove that each human cell is made of energy and frequencies that cannot be detected by the human eye, but can be measured by mammograms, EEG's and MRI's.

The bible comes nowhere close to revealing such knowledge. All it tells us is the obvious, flesh and blood. LOL!! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that.​

 

[dacontinent]

• If the MD was a relative and fraudulently declared him dead, then he should not have been wanting to be treated by him in the first place.
• Medically stable does not mean that a person SHOULD be released from medical care. It means that an downward progression has been halted such that the patient should be able to recover with continued supervised medical care. That's right out of my daughter's nursing textbook.
• Without an autopsy, no cause of death would be determined.
• There is nothing in the article where the brother said anything about the death certificate. The image of the death certificate was provided independently by the critic.
• I know it's accurate because I work with the schools on drug abuse and know that kids do it here in the US. Why are you questioning my agreeing with you?
• Again, was Kingsley the mortician or is he granting hearsay? I didn't put the interviewer's comments in the post; you did.
• Smell is not a sign of rigor mortis; a swollen stomach is one of the indicators. However, the root of rigor is the temporary stiffness that is subsequent to death. While the people at the church witnessed stiffness, no medical professional or mortician mentioned rigor mortis in anything that I have read, seen, or heard. So, that is still a wide open issue for me.
• Smell is not a sign of rigor mortis. RM has to do with muscle. As such the muscile around the abdomen is one place to check - not for swelling but for stiffness. I have done enough work with morticians to know that for myself. The root of rigor is the temporary stiffness that is subsequent to death. While the people at the church witnessed stiffness, no medical professional or mortician mentioned rigor mortis in anything that I have read, seen, or heard. So, that is still a wide open issue for me. Initial evidences of RM can occur within a few hours of death, but may ebb and flow.
• The proof that I would present is the eyewitness testimony of medical professionals - doctor, medical assistants, EMTs, morticians, ministers, and onlookers. You have presented inconsistencies in the story of Kingsley (likely impeaching him) along with speculation. I like my chances in court.
• You keep trying to pin this on Bonnke and all that you have shown was that Bonnke was there at the church where they took the body.
• Yes, I would have my doubts about it for a Muslim/Allah situation. However, I would not thumb my nose at evidence presented by the people who were there and witnessed the event. Doubt is one thing; denying evidence is completely different.

 

[JayRob]

• If the MD was a relative and fraudulently declared him dead, then he should not have been wanting to be treated by him in the first place.
• Medically stable does not mean that a person SHOULD be released from medical care. It means that an downward progression has been halted such that the patient should be able to recover with continued supervised medical care. That's right out of my daughter's nursing textbook.
• Without an autopsy, no cause of death would be determined.
• There is nothing in the article where the brother said anything about the death certificate. The image of the death certificate was provided independently by the critic.
• I know it's accurate because I work with the schools on drug abuse and know that kids do it here in the US. Why are you questioning my agreeing with you?
• Again, was Kingsley the mortician or is he granting hearsay? I didn't put the interviewer's comments in the post; you did.
• Smell is not a sign of rigor mortis; a swollen stomach is one of the indicators. However, the root of rigor is the temporary stiffness that is subsequent to death. While the people at the church witnessed stiffness, no medical professional or mortician mentioned rigor mortis in anything that I have read, seen, or heard. So, that is still a wide open issue for me.
• Smell is not a sign of rigor mortis. RM has to do with muscle. As such the muscile around the abdomen is one place to check - not for swelling but for stiffness. I have done enough work with morticians to know that for myself. The root of rigor is the temporary stiffness that is subsequent to death. While the people at the church witnessed stiffness, no medical professional or mortician mentioned rigor mortis in anything that I have read, seen, or heard. So, that is still a wide open issue for me. Initial evidences of RM can occur within a few hours of death, but may ebb and flow.
  [*]The proof that I would present is the eyewitness testimony of medical professionals - doctor, medical assistants, EMTs, morticians, ministers, and onlookers. You have presented inconsistencies in the story of Kingsley (likely impeaching him) along with speculation. I like my chances in court.
  [*]You keep trying to pin this on Bonnke and all that you have shown was that Bonnke was there at the church where they took the body.
  [*]Yes, I would have my doubts about it for a Muslim/Allah situation. However, I would not thumb my nose at evidence presented by the people who were there and witnessed the event. Doubt is one thing; denying evidence is completely different.

What eyewitness testimonies? What EMT's? What ministers? What onlookers? The mortician stated that the body wasn't embalmed.

--The Bonnke man just happened to be in town when an affiliate of his supposedly died of unknown causes. He was taken to Bonnke's revival and supposedly resurrected.
--This has EVERYTHING to do with Bonnke. He has a long history of fraud. I see why you'd want to distance this case from Bonnke. With his past history, I would too, but you can't. It was his revival, his affiliation and Bonnke has this Dan Eke person travelling around with him. So yes, this Dan Eke person is very much affiliated with Bonnke.
--Who pushed the mortician while he was attempting to embalm the body?
--Who was singing in the mortuary?
--After three long days, why wasn't his stomach swollen and the intestines smelling?
--If the man was stabilized when he left the first hospital, what did he die from a mere two hours later?
--There's no evidence of scars, bruises, broken bones, head trauma or other medical issues of a serious nature anywhere in the articles. What did this man die from?

In short, all of this is obvious fraud and has the fingerprints of this Bonnke person all over it. You can deny his involvement but when you look at the entire case, he is involved without a doubt, nevertheless, if this helps your faith to increase, believe all you want.