Paul and Revalation....

[Apaquelypse]

Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.

Paul also said, The dead in christ shall rise first and those that are alive and remain shall be caught in heaven.....

Now if those believers who have already died are currently in heaven, who are the dead believers that will rise when he comes back?

 

[XHALE9802]

This is what i've always interpreted...believers who have passed away, their spirits are in heaven and bodies are in the ground, when Christ returns their bodies will rise and be joined with their spirits in heaven. Believers who are alive and remain will be called and go to heaven. I have not read about all of that like I should and in a while so I'd like to hear other believers comments also.

 

[Dr H..]

When a person dies:

The Spirit returns to God

The body goes to the ground

The soul goes to a holding place (Lazarus and the rich man) where it will remain until Christ returns.

In the twinkling of an eye they will be rejoined for the final judgment before the Judgement Seat (those that are saved) or The Geat White Throne (those that are lost)

 

[Apaquelypse]

When a person dies:

The Spirit returns to God

The body goes to the ground

The soul goes to a holding place (Lazarus and the rich man) where it will remain until Christ returns.

In the twinkling of an eye they will be rejoined for the final judgment before the Judgement Seat (those that are saved) or The Geat White Throne (those that are lost)

is Christ too in this holding place or is he seated with The Father?

 

[dacontinent]

is Christ too in this holding place or is he seated with The Father?

Dr. H is referring to the rest of us.

Christ is seated, making intercession for us.

Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Eph 1:15-23
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 

[ROYAL BLUE]

Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.

Paul also said, The dead in christ shall rise first and those that are alive and remain shall be caught in heaven.....

Now if those believers who have already died are currently in heaven, who are the dead believers that will rise when he comes back?

The answer is in your first statement. The believers who will be on this earth in the flesh at the time of His arrival, are the dead believers that will be changed into their spiritual body. Scripture clearly states when Christ return, those in the flesh will be instantly changed in the twinkling of an eye. Blink your eye and that's how fast it will happen. All flesh will be changed, however not all souls will be saved. Flesh and blood can not enter heaven, so naturally, all flesh is changed when Christ return. What will they be changed from? People living on earth in the flesh will be changed from a dying flesh body into a living spiritual body. If this confuses you, then read Luke 9:27-36 for a deeper understanding of what our spiritual bodies will look like. In Luke 9:27-36, Christ allowed us to see that people who die, don't have a soul floating out there in space, nor are their souls lying in the ground, or in a holding place. Verse 33 states that Moses and Elijah are in their spiritual body. In other words, they are not in a holding place. Notice, the bible referred to Moses and Elijah as "men" in spiritual bodies; and Peter, James, John recognized Moses and Elijah without an introduction from Christ. Pay attention to the description of the bodies because ours will look the same as Moses and Elijah when we die.


Luke 9:27-36 (Amplified Bible)

27However I tell you truly, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.

28Now about eight days after these teachings, Jesus took with Him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray.

29And as He was praying, the appearance of His countenance became altered (different), and His raiment became dazzling white [[a]flashing with the brilliance of lightning].

30And behold, two men were conversing with Him--Moses and Elijah,

31Who appeared in splendor and majesty and brightness and were speaking of His exit [from life], which He was about to bring to realization at Jerusalem.

 

[ROYAL BLUE]

Where are the dead ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qMk...AE531867&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22

 

[JayRob]

The answer is in your first statement. The believers who will be on this earth in the flesh at the time of His arrival, are the dead believers that will be changed into their spiritual body. Scripture clearly states when Christ return, those in the flesh will be instantly changed in the twinkling of an eye. Blink your eye and that's how fast it will happen. All flesh will be changed, however not all souls will be saved. Flesh and blood can not enter heaven, so naturally, all flesh is changed when Christ return. What will they be changed from? People living on earth in the flesh will be changed from a dying flesh body into a living spiritual body. If this confuses you, then read Luke 9:27-36 for a deeper understanding of what our spiritual bodies will look like. In Luke 9:27-36, Christ allowed us to see that people who die, don't have a soul floating out there in space, nor are their souls lying in the ground, or in a holding place. Verse 33 states that Moses and Elijah are in their spiritual body. In other words, they are not in a holding place. Notice, the bible referred to Moses and Elijah as "men" in spiritual bodies; and Peter, James, John recognized Moses and Elijah without an introduction from Christ. Pay attention to the description of the bodies because ours will look the same as Moses and Elijah when we die.


Luke 9:27-36 (Amplified Bible)

27However I tell you truly, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.

28Now about eight days after these teachings, Jesus took with Him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray.

29And as He was praying, the appearance of His countenance became altered (different), and His raiment became dazzling white [[a]flashing with the brilliance of lightning].

30And behold, two men were conversing with Him--Moses and Elijah,

31Who appeared in splendor and majesty and brightnessand were speaking of His exit [from life], which He was about to bring to realization at Jerusalem.

RB, your diatribe makes no sense at all. If the human spirit cannot die, what's the use of the body being turned into spirit. Having a spirit in a spirit body makes no sense at all. It's like having peanut butter on top of peanut butter. What's the use?

If Moses and Elijah are IN THEIR SPIRITUAL BODY, what's the use of their physical body being resurrected just to be changed into a spiritual body, a body YOU claim they already have? Makes no sense at all.....none.

 

[JayRob]

When a person dies:

The Spirit returns to God

The body goes to the ground

The soul goes to a holding place (Lazarus and the rich man) where it will remain until Christ returns.

In the twinkling of an eye they will be rejoined for the final judgment before the Judgement Seat (those that are saved) or The Geat White Throne (those that are lost)

The spirit, body and soul are three different entities? None of this makes any sense at all. In the Bible, the body and soul are synonomous. and at times interchangeable.

The Bible speaks of only two entities, the body and the human spirit. The soul can die as can the body. Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:21 clearly says this. There's no such thing as a holding place for any soul. This is what the Catholic church teaches. They teach that the souls of some deceased folks are currently in limbo waiting for judgement. Eventhough it's neither here nor there, what you said is not Biblical.

 

[ROYAL BLUE]

RB, your diatribe makes no sense at all. If the human spirit cannot die, what's the use of the body being turned into spirit. Having a spirit in a spirit body makes no sense at all. It's like having peanut butter on top of peanut butter. What's the use?

If Moses and Elijah are IN THEIR SPIRITUAL BODY, what's the use of their physical body being resurrected just to be changed into a spiritual body, a body YOU claim they already have? Makes no sense at all.....none.

My pastor answered all of your questions in the video below.


Where are the dead ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qMk...AE531867&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22

 

[Gsu95]

Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.

Paul also said, The dead in christ shall rise first and those that are alive and remain shall be caught in heaven.....

Now if those believers who have already died are currently in heaven, who are the dead believers that will rise when he comes back?

I heard a pastor say one time (John Hagee) that the people who have died and their soul is present with the Lord shall come back to revive their dead flesh (because GOD doesn't loose anything). I hope this helps.

 

[Bane]

I heard a pastor say one time (John Hagee) that the people who have died and their soul is present with the Lord shall come back to revive their dead flesh (because GOD doesn't loose anything). I hope this helps.

You obviously don't know much about John Hagee. I wouldn't quote nothing that guys says.

 

[JayRob]

My pastor answered all of your questions in the video below.


Where are the dead ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qMk...AE531867&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22

Dude, I can't believe you listen to this man, Arnold Murray Easter. This man, who calls himself a preacher, pulled a gun out and threatened someone on LIVE television. See for yourself. You may want to revisit some of this man's teachings.

See unChristianlike video:

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[ROYAL BLUE]

Dude, I can't believe you listen to this man, Arnold Murray Easter. This man, who calls himself a preacher, pulled a gun out and threatened someone on LIVE television. See for yourself. You may want to revisit some of this man's teachings.

See unChristianlike video:

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JayRob, you honestly had no idea that I was the one who posted this video a year ago. You aint tellin me nothing new. Pastor Murray is a Marine war VET, and he was a member of the "Chosin Few" who fought against the chinese army. He believes in protecting yourself just like the bible instructs. What were the disciples carrying everywhere they went with Jesus? They carried swords for protection. Did they not? The video shows a stranger intruding and disrutping broadcast. Pastor Murray has more discipline than me because I would have lit his azz up due to me not knowing if the guy has a bomb/weapon.

Having said that, he answered your questions and gave bible references. Did he not?

 

[ROYAL BLUE]

Dude, I can't believe you listen to this man, Arnold Murray Easter. This man, who calls himself a preacher, pulled a gun out and threatened someone on LIVE television. See for yourself. You may want to revisit some of this man's teachings.

See unChristianlike video....

In Answer to Critics

by Pastor Arnold B. Murray

I also should point out to those not familiar with the Shepherd's Chapel that we are completely independent; therefore we are not affiliated with any other church, denomination or group. As a matter of record, the only group of which I am a member is with the "Chosin Few" which is a group of Korean War veterans comprised of various military factions who fought in one of the more famous battles of that war. I am very proud to have served as a U.S. Marine in this severe winter battle in which approximately 12,000 of our troops faced a massive surprise attack by an estimated 120,000 of the Chinese communist enemy. Although suffering many casualties, the Marines and our British allies inflicted far more damage to the Chinese and were able to ultimately escape (with our dead and injured) from the Chosin Reservoir where we were at a grave disadvantage. Despite being wounded I survived this war because, I believe, the Lord had further plans and a purpose for my life. I have never forgotten the discipline of the U.S. Marine Corps and the lessons learned in war. If I teach like a Marine DI (Drill Instructor) it is with love because I know first hand the value of well educated and trained troops. In fact the root word behind the word "disciples" is "discipline". The Bible frequently uses military terms to convey how we must prepare to face spiritual warfare. As Christians our ultimate enemy is not "flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, to wit we must put on the whole armour of God" (Ephesians 6:10-19).

I believe many of the inaccurate perceptions of what I teach at the Shepherd's Chapel could be resolved quickly if those interested would simply request our "Statement of Faith" which has been freely available for many years. http://www.shepherdschapel.com/critics.htm

 

[JayRob]

JayRob, you honestly had no idea that I was the one who posted this video a year ago. You aint tellin me nothing new. Pastor Murray is a Marine war VET, and he was a member of the "Chosin Few" who fought against the chinese army. He believes in protecting yourself just like the bible instructs. What were the disciples carrying everywhere they went with Jesus? They carried swords for protection. Did they not? The video shows a stranger intruding and disrutping broadcast. Pastor Murray has more discipline than me because I would have lit his azz up due to me not knowing if the guy has a bomb/weapon.

Having said that, he answered your questions and gave bible references. Did he not?

Which doctrine will you pull out of the hat now to support your diatribe? Oh, the one about the sword carrying disciples? Hahahahahahaha! Whatever happened to turning the other cheek? Whatever happened to giving your brother your coat if he asks for it?

Typical religious folks, just using the Bible to justify any and every action and misusing it to justify pulling out guns on human beings. Would Jesus have pulled out a gun and threatened to shoot someone?
The video is funny as heck though, but still not a very good example for a pastor to be packing a gun.:lol::lol:

Whatever happened to letting your god take care of you? Oh, my bad, he's imaginary, therefore you HAVE to protect yourself.

 

[JayRob]

In Answer to Critics

by Pastor Arnold B. Murray

I also should point out to those not familiar with the Shepherd's Chapel that we are completely independent; therefore we are not affiliated with any other church, denomination or group. As a matter of record, the only group of which I am a member is with the "Chosin Few" which is a group of Korean War veterans comprised of various military factions who fought in one of the more famous battles of that war. I am very proud to have served as a U.S. Marine in this severe winter battle in which approximately 12,000 of our troops faced a massive surprise attack by an estimated 120,000 of the Chinese communist enemy. Although suffering many casualties, the Marines and our British allies inflicted far more damage to the Chinese and were able to ultimately escape (with our dead and injured) from the Chosin Reservoir where we were at a grave disadvantage. Despite being wounded I survived this war because, I believe, the Lord had further plans and a purpose for my life. I have never forgotten the discipline of the U.S. Marine Corps and the lessons learned in war. If I teach like a Marine DI (Drill Instructor) it is with love because I know first hand the value of well educated and trained troops. In fact the root word behind the word "disciples" is "discipline". The Bible frequently uses military terms to convey how we must prepare to face spiritual warfare. As Christians our ultimate enemy is not "flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, to wit we must put on the whole armour of God" (Ephesians 6:10-19).

I believe many of the inaccurate perceptions of what I teach at the Shepherd's Chapel could be resolved quickly if those interested would simply request our "Statement of Faith" which has been freely available for many years. http://www.shepherdschapel.com/critics.htm

Face it RB, when push came to shove, this pastor of yours acted like a common thug off the streets. Now don't you ever criticize Black folks for acting thuggish, cause your minister takes the cake on that matter.
He didn't have faith in his god to handle the situation, so he took it upon himself to let his god, the gun, handle it. Some example, huh.

 

[ROYAL BLUE]

Face it RB, when push came to shove, this pastor of yours acted like a common thug off the streets. Now don't you ever criticize Black folks for acting thuggish, cause your minister takes the cake on that matter.
He didn't have faith in his god to handle the situation, so he took it upon himself to let his god, the gun, handle it. Some example, huh.

What are you talking about? Pastor Murray relied on God to bless him with a gun to handle small weight. God expects Christians to handle things we are capable of handling, and the things we can't handle......He handles. Like I stated before, had it been me in that situation, yall would have heard "SEVERAL" gun shots.......and some #$%@ to go wit it!:lol:

What will God handle for Christians that we won't be able to handle ourselves?
Read Ezekiel 38 and you will see an excellent example of God defending His people in front of the entire world. Ezekiel 38 hasn't happened yet. God willing, I look forward to the day, when I see the slaughter of the multi-million man army that will march through the Alaskan mountains to invade America. God states He will use nature to destroy this army and it's weapons. If you think Murray did something with his 9mm, you aint seen nothin yet.

 

[ROYAL BLUE]

Face it RB, when push came to shove, this pastor of yours acted like a common thug off the streets. Now don't you ever criticize Black folks for acting thuggish, cause your minister takes the cake on that matter.
He didn't have faith in his god to handle the situation, so he took it upon himself to let his god, the gun, handle it. Some example, huh.

Did the priest Samuel act in a thuggish way?

32Then Samuel said, Bring here to me Agag king of the Amalekites. And Agag came to him cheerfully. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.

33Samuel said, As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord in Gilgal.

 

[Dr H..]

The Bible speaks of only two entities, the body and the human spirit.

Read Genesis "and the body became a living soul"


"Christ is seated at the right hand of God."

Thge myth after people die, they go to heaven "what a lie" if that's true, then there will be no need for "Judgment Day"


I have said it once and I am saying it again:

RB, got a thing for Murray, he acts as if this man is God. Murray, said he was part of the Chosen Few, as I recall, just like the PhD, he claims "there is a lack of proof"

I heard a pastor say one time (John Hagee) that the people who have died and their soul is present with the Lord shall come back to revive their dead flesh (because GOD doesn't loose anything). I hope this helps.

Hagee is an idiot - what sense does that make, it's not in the bible. God, don want the filty flesh, that's why it returns to the earth.

 

[JayRob]

Did the priest Samuel act in a thuggish way?

32Then Samuel said, Bring here to me Agag king of the Amalekites. And Agag came to him cheerfully. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.

33Samuel said, As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord in Gilgal.

So it's okay for me to hack people with swords now or to wish for the deaths of millions of people from a fictitious book of Ezekiel?! Sickening to the n-th degree.

Dude you and your representation of your religion is sickening. You use the bible to fulfill your own selfish desires, whims and needs then turn around and convince yourself that you're following the laws of Christ after you've done it. You've gotten to the point that you've brainwashed yourself and your minister seems to have done a job on you too.

 

[JayRob]

Read Genesis "and the body became a living soul"


"Christ is seated at the right hand of God."

Thge myth after people die, they go to heaven "what a lie" if that's true, then there will be no need for "Judgment Day"


I have said it once and I am saying it again:

RB, got a thing for Murray, he acts as if this man is God. Murray, said he was part of the Chosen Few, as I recall, just like the PhD, he claims "there is a lack of proof"




Hagee is an idiot - what sense does that make, it's not in the bible. God, don want the filty flesh, that's why it returns to the earth.

The body became means the body is. Scripture said, "god breathed into....and man became a "living soul". Oxygen made man a living soul.
After breath entered the body, it became a living soul. Once oxygen leaves the body, it's a dead soul/body. It's as simple as that.

 

[ROYAL BLUE]

I have said it once and I am saying it again:

RB, got a thing for Murray, he acts as if this man is God. Murray, said he was part of the Chosen Few, as I recall, just like the PhD, he claims "there is a lack of proof"

Would you prefer if I had a thing for you?

Yes, I love pastor Murray with brotherly Christian love. I love him because he tells the truth and teaches God's word chapter by chapter and verse by verse. He explains things to the students and always give references. To this day, I have yet to find a more accurate dynamic "teacher" than Murray. Have you?

 

[JayRob]

Would you prefer if I had a thing for you?

Yes, I love pastor Murray with brotherly Christian love. I love him because he tells the truth and teaches God's word chapter by chapter and verse by verse. He explains things to the students and always give references. To this day, I have yet to find a more accurate dynamic "teacher" than Murray. Have you?

Mr. Murray, take that gun away from RB's head please. You've already brainwashed him into believing that White people are Israelites. Now you've brainwashed him into convincing himself that acting thuggish on live television is godly. Well, on the latter part, you might be right.

 

[Dr H..]

Yes, I love pastor Murray with brotherly Christian love. I love him because he tells the truth and teaches God's word chapter by chapter and verse by verse. He explains things to the students and always give references. To this day, I have yet to find a more accurate dynamic "teacher" than Murray. Have you?

Yes, there are more accurate teachers than Murray, As being dynamic, please explain, listening to him is like to flies "going at it" Anyone, can read from the bible and repeat wht he read. I have never herd anythype of hermanutics or exegesis of the word.