Look at what C-usa is up too now

[Jafus (Thinker)]

EB,

J, I will not continue too much longer. But if an HBCU is to be successful on the 1-A level, it must do more than what has been done for the basketball programs. In general our fans are like the PWC fans, we like a winner. On this board we talk about how we are not liking the 40+ point losses in basketball. Well, we will not like it in football either. If the school, HBCU or PWC, is losing, chances are there will be fewer behinds inthe seats. Look at what winning did for for PV just this year in basketball.

Of course the name of the game is winning. But I will give two examples of four different programsthat have shown the ability to win and draw crowds for attendance with two difference types of schedules.

Let us look at this closer and use the example you used of Prairie View A & M.

SWAC:

Let's take Texas Southern University and Prairie View A & M University's 2002-2003 basketball schedule.

Texas Southern was (4-5) in their non-conference schedule and ended up with a record of (11-7 : 17-13) and won the SWAC Tournament Championship and participated in the NCAA Big Dance.

Prairie View A & M was (2-7) in their non-conference schedule and ended up with a record of (14-4 : 17-12) and won the SWAC Regular Season Championship.

Well just in case you say this is just one isolated case. But I say no look closer.

MEAC:

Let's take Hampton University and South Carolina State University's 2002-2003 basketball schedule

South Carolina State was (2-7) in their non-conference schedule and ended up with a record of (15-3 : 20-11) and won the Regular Season Championship MEAC Tournament Championship and participated in the NCAA Big Dance.

Hampton was (4-5) in their non-conference schedule and ended up with a record of (13-5 : 19-11) and was in the battle for the MEAC Regular Season Champioship with the games coming down to game played between the two and played against South Carolina State in the MEAC Tournament Championship Game for the right to go the NCAA Big Dance.

I say all of this to say that both teams where competitive and had solid home attendance numbers, but took two different ways of scheduling to get there and balance their athletic budgets for basketball at the Division I level.

Seriously. If you are so concerned about the competitiveness of NCAA Division I basketball sports in 20, 30, or 40 points losses, then why do you no support that Division I programs move to the NCAA Division II level so they can be competitive?

I am only suggesting that the same can be done for football programs in terms of scheduling a football schedule regardless of the level the chose to participate in terms of football.

They can play schedules similar too:

Texas, Georgia, Miami, Duke, Vanderbilt, or Baylor at the NCAA Division I A BCS level

or
Marshall, North Texas State or ULL at the NCAA Division I A level

or
Southern, Florida A & M, Georgia Southern, Montana, VMI or Prairie View A & M at the NCAA Division I AA level

or
Tuskegee, Winston-Salem State, Texas A & M Kingsville, Valdosta, Henderson State or Lane at the NCAA Division II level.

or
Langston, Allen, Paul Quinn, Edward-Waters, or Georgetown at the NAIA Division I level.

Each can provide you with a means to construct your athletic operating budget but all three can provide you with different results on the athletic field in terms of success in regards to your football record.

Again in my opinion, this has very little to do with what level a program decides to participate on, but what type of organizational leadership is behind the decisions made to determine what level a program should participate.

In order to be successful on the 1-A, I have mentioned that we need to do better in supporting our schools, improve the facilities, and increase the public relations. The 1-A schools do it not only because they want to do it. They do it because they must.

I agree. But my simple beliefs are that regardless of division classification we need to do better in supporting our schools.

Again do you not agree that there is a reason that Southern and Florida A & M where more successful and competitive on the NCAA Division I AA level as opposed to Prairie View A & M and Morgan State?

Again do you not agree that there is a reason that Texas and Georgia where more successful and competitive on the NCAA Division I A BCS level as opposed to Kansas and Kentucky?

Again do you not agree that there is a reason that Marshall and Fresno State where more successful and competitive on the NCAA Division I A level as opposed to San Jose State and ULM?

Again do you not agree that there is a reason that Tuskegee and Winston-Salem State (Valdosta and Texas A & M Kingsville) where more successful and competitive on the NCAA Division II level as opposed to Lane and Kentucky State (Henderson State)?

It seems you simply decide to ignore these cases that some programs are successful at given levels while others are not successful at the same level.

Seriously does the classification have reason why there programs where or where not successful on the NCAA Division I AA level?

Why do you chose say that this only matters at the NCAA Division I A level?

As a gentleman that is earning a Phd I do not understand how you are selectively saying something hold true to one level of competition, but not others. Because when you teach lesson of various definitions, laws and theories. One of the premisous is that with all being equal that the definitions, laws, and theories hold true for all cases.

Back in the day when it came to recruiting, our coaches had the network with the Black high school coaches. With integration many of those Black coaches became assistants, and the White coaches did not send the players to the HBCUs as often as the Black ones did. Heck, many Black coaches, including grads of HBCUs, started not to send their players to HBCUs. Whether it is 1-A or 1-AA, many schools may have to increase their network with the high schools.

I am not debating that this is not the case. But there is a reason by the paradign shift came. Some of the reasons had to be with the ability to play at the NCAA highest divisional level. Which is a premise to this discussion. Another reason is based on better facilities. Other reasons are the access to exposure. Which is another premise to this discussion. Again I would suggest that there are even other reasons.

But again I am not debating that this is not the case. Most of us understand this. But the debate should shift from what happen to (what do we need to do about?) and )what can we do about it?).

Thirty years ago our schools were better than most small PWCs. In 1974 I think that Grambling and Southern could have beaten just about all of the small PWCs in Louisiana. I think that Grambling and Southern could have beaten a struggling LSU team and Tulane in '74. But though I was not in Louisiana during the '80s, it looked like to me (over TV) that some things had changed.

Again, I am not debating this issue. You are preaching to choir. I fully understand this. But again it is time to stop listing what happen and start focusing on what needs to be done to improve this transition.

Yes, some PWCs have passed up a lot of our schools. One does not have to look at Troy State, who was very good in D-II and 1-AA. One can look at Georgia Southern. In August 1980 Erk Russell was going into his 16th or 17th season as Vince Dooley's defensive coordinator at Georgia, Herschel Walker was starting his freshman year there, and Georgia Southern did not have a football program. Well, in 1982 Georgia Southern hired Erk Russell, who said that starting a football program was what he always wanted to do. By 1990 they had joined the Southern Conference and had about three national championships. They now have six and are still in 1-AA. I do not think that Georgia Southern has the fan base of most SWAC or MEAC schools.

Again I am not debating this issue. I am very knowledgeable about the history of collegiate football and it is obvious you are too. So, we know this is true. But we need to look at what needs to be done about it.

Now, I am not armed with all of the statistics. But I have seen the facilities (locker rooms, tracks, practice fields) at schools like LSU, Georgia, Texas A&M, Georgia Tech and Minnesota. We have a LONG ways to go. First, our mentality must change a lot. I do not believe in the status quo. I am for improving our programs. I know that we can improve our programs if we really wanted. Note that it will be a marathon and not a sprint.

But again you are looking much deeper into the picture. Before we focus on the LSU, Georgia and Texas's. We can look at programs like Marshall, Troy State, North Texas State, Fresno State, LaTech, UConn.

Remember before you can become a multi-source research publist, note worthy tenured professor and world renown arthur such as Dr. Dennis Kimbro or notable professors.

You must first graduate from high school, you must then graduate from undergraduate school in college, then earn a master, and finally earn a Phd.

Shoot for the moon and end up amongst the stars.

 

[JROCK]

Originally posted by unknown1
This is just ridiculous. Who would pick any D-IA over a D-IAA just because it's D-IA? A real recruit is going to go to a school that has a GOOD program, not necessarily a D-IA program? Would a good recruit choose ULL over Georgia Southern simply because it's a D-IA? Not a smart one anyway. Let's be realistic, if FAMU gets to the next level and is competitive against good opponents, then yes, they more than likely will get better recruits than the JSU's and SU's. If they get there and end up with 2-10, 3-9, 1-11 records year in and year out, will they get better recruits than JSU or GSU, NO!

There are plenty of D-IAA schools out there that get better recruits than the lower echelon D-IA schools on a regular basis. I'm willing to bet that a 2002 Georgia Southern would beat half the Sunbelt Conference on a week to week basis. If your theory is true, why cant schools like UAB, ULL, UNT and many other D-IA's draw in good recruits? I mean they are D-IA. What coach is going to sway his players to go to a depleted program? Case in point: 1994 J.R. Revere is recruited as both a quarterback and a pitcher from LaGrange High by Georgia Southern, UAB, and a few other wishy washy D-IA's...where do you think coach told him to go? Not only did he go there and start, he won a national championship and also got drafted to the pro's in baseball.

And i'm trying to figure out why exactly you all keep using Troy State as a measuring stick. They're still having fundraisers to raise all their money, and they can barely fill their own stadium BEFORE adding seats, better yet now. Last year they were 3-8 and the only teams they beat were FAMU, FAU, and Southern Utah. They got outscored 249-177. Ga. Southern was on national TV more times than Troy State was, and the only reason they were even on tv then was because they were being beaten up on by the BCS teams. And you are trying to tell me that recruits seeing that would pick TSU over GSU simply because they're D-IA? I dont think so! Now let FAMU make the move, go 7-5 their first season, 8-4 their next and keep improving...then yes they will get better recruits. But seeing them get mollywopped on tv every week isnt going to get them better recruits. Now when TSU gets into the SunBelt i'm pretty sure they'll be more successful than they were last year, but next year they'll take losses to Kansas State, Minnesota, Marshall, Nebraska, Virginia and MTSU..and possibly more. Sure they'll be money games but what will a recruit think when they see those games..."Hmm maybe I should check out Kansas State." And out of all of those teams, the only one traveling to Troy is Marshall. They only have 4 home games..which is why I guess they had to join a conference.


And for the record? How many SunBelt games will be on national TV this year? And does ULL get better recruits than JSU, GSU, and SU?

It is totally asinine to think recruits would choose a 1-AA program over 1-A. If you think that 1-A programs are not getting better athletes than 95 percent of 1-AA program you are way off the mark. Sure you may be able to find 5 or 6 exceptions out of 150. But as a rule of thumb you would have to be a borderline idiot to choose a 1-AA team over a 1-A school when playing football. Further, Troy State is not used as a measuring stick but rather an example of upward mobility. This is why reading comprehension is paramount. You mentioned GA. Southern would beat half of the Sunbelt. You could not name 5% (if not lower) of all of 1-AA that could accomplish this against the worse I-A league. Ga.Southern made several regional appearance and 2-3 national (cable) appearances. Less than 5% of 1-AA teams will make more national t.v. appearances than a 1-A program. If you are an ESPN executive with an open slot you better believe that a Sunbelt game will be shown before a Southern Conf, Soutland, SWAC or any other 1-AA game. Sorry, but that is just the way it is. It does not take a rocket science to point out a few non significant exceptions. 95% of 1-AA schools received less national press coverage than 1-A schools. Not only is a ULL getting better recruits than S.U and Gram, but have better facilities, playing better caliber of teams and offer more scholarships. We must get better facilities and erase the 2nd class stigma (the I-A increased recruiting budget would not hurt either) associated with I-AA football by upward mobility (playing in the I-A class). Many recruits are not well versed in SWAC history and know that playing at a ULL they will play against a Texas A&M, Okahoma St ect. occassionaly on the 1-A level. If you think that Bama State and A&M are getting better athletes than UAB you are not well. If you think that Alcorn & JSU are getting better athletes than USM you need more help than I thought. If you think N Texas have the same caliber of athletes with TXSU, PV, Sam Houston ect. I have plenty of prime swamp land for sale. There are those that have been beneficiaries of complacency by HBCU's that revel in the current status quo. Many (not all) from PWC (black and white people) whom like feeling a sense of superiority for this twisted reason. Nothing would be better than upsetting this hierarchy that in reality is hanging by a thread. Like it or not HBCU need to step up or get left further behind. FAMU only needs to schedule smart, market themselves, and recruit better to succeed. It would be total lunacy to have a schedule full of top 25 teams and it is simple minded to not give their AD the benefit of knowing what he is doing. It is not a if we luck up and get this record then this will happen formula. It is FAMU that will dictate its success by work and proper planning. Not a hope and dream.

 

[JSU/99]

[
JSU/99,
First it reads to me that you are assuming that a HBCU program at the NCAA Division I AA is not irrelevant on the national landscape. Is this a true assumption on my part in regards to your question?

That's not a true assumption. The HBCUs are very relevant in the D-1AA antional landscape. However, the fact that SWAC schools don't even participate in the race for a national championship is a problem and will continute to be one.

Second it reads to me that you assuming that if a HBCU program moves to the NCAA Division I A level they will automatically be irrelevant on the national landscape. Is this a true on my part in regards to your question?

Yes it is true.


Why do you not accept the answer that they believe the move of a HBCU program to the NCAA Division I A level can be successful and would it would not be irrelevant for a HBCU program to operate at the NCAA Division I A level on the national landscape?

If that's what they believe, then i accept that. But nothing I've seen says this will be the case. And this is true for most D-1AA programs, not just HBCUs.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

JSU/99,

JSU/99,
First it reads to me that you are assuming that a HBCU program at the NCAA Division I AA is not irrelevant on the national landscape. Is this a true assumption on my part in regards to your question?

That's not a true assumption. The HBCUs are very relevant in the D-1AA antional landscape. However, the fact that SWAC schools don't even participate in the race for a national championship is a problem and will continute to be one.

Second it reads to me that you assuming that if a HBCU program moves to the NCAA Division I A level they will automatically be irrelevant on the national landscape. Is this a true on my part in regards to your question?

Yes it is true.


Why do you not accept the answer that they believe the move of a HBCU program to the NCAA Division I A level can be successful and would it would not be irrelevant for a HBCU program to operate at the NCAA Division I A level on the national landscape?

If that's what they believe, then i accept that. But nothing I've seen says this will be the case. And this is true for most D-1AA programs, not just HBCUs.

Thanks for clarifing your question. I must admit your take on the issue is very interesting and intriguing.

But I must respectfully disagree that a HBCU program at the NCAA Division I AA level is not irrelevant on the national landscape, but a HBCU program at the NCAA Division I A level would be irrelevant on the national landscape.

Again that is a very unique stance on the parrallel between the two (Div I-AA : Div I-A) NCAA divisional levels.

If you will allow me one other question and indulge if you so please.

Do you believe a HBCU program operating at the NCAA Division II level is not irrelevant on the national landscape?

 

[Mr. SWAC]

Originally posted by JROCK
If you think that Bama State and A&M are getting better athletes than UAB you are not well.

You might want to refraise this statement.

 

[JSU/99]

Originally posted by Jafus (Thinker)
JSU/99,


Do you believe a HBCU program operating at the NCAA Division II level is not irrelevant on the national landscape?

If its a good program, they are relevant within the D-II landscape. The lower Divisions(1-AA, II, III, etc) were created so that schools can compete and be successful against schools of similar size and caliber. If you're a smaller school with a small budget, its in your best interest to stay in a division that suits your needs. That's not to say you can never move up. However, making the move from 1-AA to 1-A won't make a lot of sense, money or interest-wise, until the landscape of D-1A changes to a more equal system. And the powers aren't gonna let that happen anytime soon.

 

[JROCK]

Originally posted by Mr. SWAC
You might want to refraise this statement.

Most people in this thread know that we are talking 1-A v.s. 1AA football. I don't see a need to "rephrase" it.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

JSU/99,

If its a good program, they are relevant within the D-II landscape. The lower Divisions(1-AA, II, III, etc) were created so that schools can compete and be successful against schools of similar size and caliber. If you're a smaller school with a small budget, its in your best interest to stay in a division that suits your needs. That's not to say you can never move up. However, making the move from 1-AA to 1-A won't make a lot of sense, money or interest-wise, until the landscape of D-1A changes to a more equal system. And the powers aren't gonna let that happen anytime soon.

Interesting. WOW!! So you believe a HBCU program can be relevant at every level (NCAA I-AA, II, III and NAIA I) except NCAA Division I-A. I must admit that is an intriguing concept. Difficult for me to understand, believe or buy. But an intriguing concept. I do not think your are correct and I hope you are wrong. Since, Florida A & M has made the move I guess time will give us some small insight into this debate.

 

[JSU/99]

Originally posted by Jafus (Thinker)
JSU/99,



Interesting. WOW!! So you believe a HBCU program can be relevant at every level (NCAA I-AA, II, III and NAIA I) except NCAA Division I-A. I must admit that is an intriguing concept. Difficult for me to understand, believe or buy. But an intriguing concept. I do not think your are correct and I hope you are wrong. Since, Florida A & M has made the move I guess time will give us some small insight into this debate.

That is my belief, although I hope I'm wrong. My honest belief is that D-1A is a totally different ballgame. The top conferences have created such a power system that its almost futile for other schools(Marshall, BYU, Tulane, etc.) to try and break in.

Now we might differ on the definition of an irrelevant program. In my opinion, an irrelevant program is one that, through no fault of its own, has zero chance of ever climbing to the top of the mountain. As good as Marshall's program is and as sorry as Vanderbilt's is, Vandy actually has a more realistic chance of ever playing in a BCS or one of the other top bowl games because of the conference they're in.

 

[sophandros]

Originally posted by JSU/99
That is my belief, although I hope I'm wrong. My honest belief is that D-1A is a totally different ballgame. The top conferences have created such a power system that its almost futile for other schools(Marshall, BYU, Tulane, etc.) to try and break in.

Now we might differ on the definition of an irrelevant program. In my opinion, an irrelevant program is one that, through no fault of its own, has zero chance of ever climbing to the top of the mountain. As good as Marshall's program is and as sorry as Vanderbilt's is, Vandy actually has a more realistic chance of ever playing in a BCS or one of the other top bowl games because of the conference they're in.

Right. True.

In 2004, it will be possible for the Big East Champion to be 6-5 and go to a BCS bowl, while the CUSA, MWC, WAC, and MAC champs can go undefeated or have one loss and be locked out. I say 2004 because that champion will NOT be Miami or VPI. Furthermore, that champion could be RUTGERS or TEMPLE. Hell, when Tulane went undefeated, a three loss Syracuse team who was ranked LOWER than the Wave in the BCS standings went to a BCS bowl game. The Sugar Bowl was told by Roy KKKramer that they couldn't take Tulane, even though the game would have been better attended and more exciting both on the field and on the national scene.

The Cartel must be stopped and it must be stopped now.

 

[pbla]

Originally posted by sophandros
Right. True.

In 2004, it will be possible for the Big East Champion to be 6-5 and go to a BCS bowl, while the CUSA, MWC, WAC, and MAC champs can go undefeated or have one loss and be locked out. I say 2004 because that champion will NOT be Miami or VPI. Furthermore, that champion could be RUTGERS or TEMPLE. Hell, when Tulane went undefeated, a three loss Syracuse team who was ranked LOWER than the Wave in the BCS standings went to a BCS bowl game. The Sugar Bowl was told by Roy KKKramer that they couldn't take Tulane, even though the game would have been better attended and more exciting both on the field and on the national scene.

The Cartel must be stopped and it must be stopped now.

This is so true.
But as I said in earlier threads involving this topic, it's about the fans and fan support at this level. I remember when the Arkansas Razorbacks bought their way into the Cotton Bowl to play Oklahoma. Georgia was to suppose to go but the Old Man On the Hill(Frank Broyles) has a lot of connections in Dallas. Arkansas fans did show up in hordes! And the Cotton Bowl made their money. Now compare this to Memphis State, they had a game that would determine if they would go to a bowl game 3 years ago with Cincinatti(sp). Ticket sales were not going as they should and FedEx took up the slack. They bought the remaining tickets and had give away promo's. Only 23,000 showed up for a crucial game, Memphis lost.

 

[unknown]

Originally posted by JROCK
Most people in this thread know that we are talking 1-A v.s. 1AA football. I don't see a need to "rephrase" it.

Most of your post is just babble so i'll just address this....if UAB gets to many "better" recruits than ASU, then why did UAB lose to them the last time they played? Fluke? Would UAB beat Georgia Southern? No. And its easy for you to compare a FEW D-IAA schools with little success on the championship level to schools like USM, HELL IT DOESNT TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO KNOW WHO GETS BETTER RECRUITS OUT OF THAT! And if you think ULL gets better recruits than upper echelon D-IAA's then I dont even know what to say for you. Hell if that were the case they why arent they using those recruits to win games? Fact remains that whether you're D-IAA or D-IA, you have to win to get good recruits, bottom line. Outside of the BCS and Marshall, how many bottom feeder D-IA's are on national tv on a week to week basis when it isnt regional? And just because you move to D-IA doesnt mean you "step up". I think you need to take a look at the success ratio of the teams that have done it thus far. More are losing money than gaining money. Many are having to move back down. And for the record, you dont have to go D-IA to improve your facilities or your program....call TSU's AD and ask them how many more blue chippers they're getting now as a doormat team than they were when they were winning at the D-IAA level. Johnny Williams, Director of Athletics 334-670-3482.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

JSU/99,

That is my belief, although I hope I'm wrong. My honest belief is that D-1A is a totally different ballgame. The top conferences have created such a power system that its almost futile for other schools(Marshall, BYU, Tulane, etc.) to try and break in.

Now we might differ on the definition of an irrelevant program. In my opinion, an irrelevant program is one that, through no fault of its own, has zero chance of ever climbing to the top of the mountain. As good as Marshall's program is and as sorry as Vanderbilt's is, Vandy actually has a more realistic chance of ever playing in a BCS or one of the other top bowl games because of the conference they're in.

I agree with the issue and your assessment of the BCS system. But (as you noted we have different definition for "relevant and irrelevant". I believe relevance is determine by performance on the field, attendance numbers in stands, and the ability to operate the program in the black or at least a marginal level in the red.

I would suggest that Louisville is a relevant and successful program because the had the ability to place a solid performance on the field, they had solid numbers in the stands, and they operated their program in the black. Especially considering the fact that you mentioned that they are not a BCS member.

So, now better understand your definition as well as having a better light of your concerns and what you stating in my opinion using your definition is true in regards to participating in the BCS Bowls. But I do not agree with your assessment that under the definition I am refering to that HBCU programs would be irrelevant at the NCAA Div I-A level.

My example. Is the fact in my opinion that the SWAC is still relevant at the NCAA Div I-AA although the do not participate in the playoffs. I understand that they maybe in "more" relevant if they did participate. Would you agree or disagree?

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Unknown1,

if UAB gets to many "better" recruits than ASU, then why did UAB lose to them the last time they played? Fluke?

That is an interesting take. But I think you may have helped JROCK's side of the debate. The last time they played both programs where at the NCAA Div I-AA level and where operating under the same NCAA rules for their classification as well as UAB had just recently started building the program. As, JROCK noted, most would say in terms of football facilities (weight room, medical, and etc) that UAB has past Alabama State.

After just starting football in 1991 at NCAA Division III level

1993-1995 Division I AA level

UAB vs Alabama State
Record: 0-2-0

Game 1-L 09-03-1994 - Alabama 27 Def UAB 24 in Mont, AL

Game 2-L 09-02-1995 - Alabama State 13 Def UAB 3 in Birm, AL

1996 Division I A level

I would love to read or watch Alabama State beat UAB. But I not do think it is very realistic to imagine that a Div I AA Alabama State could now beat a Div I A UAB football squad.

Would UAB beat Georgia Southern? No

I do not agree with that assumption. I would think if they played 5 times that UAB would win 4 of 5 times against Georgia Southern, especially given with the current state of affairs the game would be in Birmingham, Alabama. Based on the numbers of scholarships 85 versus 63, quality of athletes per number of capita, and quality competition faced week-in and week-out.

Outside of the BCS and Marshall, how many bottom feeder D-IA's are on national tv on a week to week basis when it isnt regional?

How do you selectivley come to conclusion that Florida A & M can not build a program to rival LaTech, Marshall, or Fresno State?

Neither of us have any real power in the decisions that will determine if Florida A & M can build their program to equal statue or surpass the statue of any of the programs list.

At least at this point you must admit that great deal will determine of what their conference alignment to consist of and though we all may guess and have significant hypthesis on the subject. Hell, the Big East Conference commissioner has admitted publically that the he does not know what direction the Big East Conference will take because the presidents have yet to make a decision.

This will go along way in determining the ultimate structure of the rest of the mid-major conference landscape and the possiblities are endless. So, in my opinion, it is difficult to state what the future hold for Florida A & M University. There are to many parts to puzzle that must shake out first, before a legitimate assessment can actually be made.

Surely you would admit that. Would you not?

 

[JSU/99]

Originally posted by Jafus (Thinker)
JSU/99,



I agree with the issue and your assessment of the BCS system. But (as you noted we have different definition for "relevant and irrelevant". I believe relevance is determine by performance on the field, attendance numbers in stands, and the ability to operate the program in the black or at least a marginal level in the red.

I would suggest that Louisville is a relevant and successful program because the had the ability to place a solid performance on the field, they had solid numbers in the stands, and they operated their program in the black. Especially considering the fact that you mentioned that they are not a BCS member.

So, now better understand your definition as well as having a better light of your concerns and what you stating in my opinion using your definition is true in regards to participating in the BCS Bowls. But I do not agree with your assessment that under the definition I am refering to that HBCU programs would be irrelevant at the NCAA Div I-A level.

My example. Is the fact in my opinion that the SWAC is still relevant at the NCAA Div I-AA although the do not participate in the playoffs. I understand that they maybe in "more" relevant if they did participate. Would you agree or disagree?

If you notice, I said a school who "through no fault of its own" can't ever make it to the top of the mountain. That's not the case with SWAC schools, we choose to opt out of the playoffs in favor of the SCG. At anytime, we could cancel it and our schools could compete again. Personally, I would prefer that we play in the playoffs because I'd like to see an HBCU finally win a national championship.

Your example of Louisville is interesting, especially since they're bound for the ACC or Big East. However you're not looking at 2 factors:
1) While Conference USA is to me a relevant conference(good TV exposure, decent bowl tie-ins), no team in this conference ever had a real chance of competitng in a national championship.

2) Louisville is apparantly bound for one of the BCS conferences, but not so much on the strength of the football program, but because of the Basketball team as well. Look at a school like UConn, headed for the Big East from D-1AA. These schools have successful, money-making basketball teams that gives them great leverage in becoming affiliates with power conferences. The same goes for Cinncinnati and maybe Memphis.

It seems that the NCAA as it is now is consolidating all of the power into the top 4-5 conferences. And the only way you can get in is if 1)you have a historical affiliation(Vandy, etc) or 2) you bring some national credibility and the ability to add revenue to the conference in one fo the major sports.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

JSU/99,

If you notice, I said a school who "through no fault of its own" can't ever make it to the top of the mountain. That's not the case with SWAC schools, we choose to opt out of the playoffs in favor of the SCG. At anytime, we could cancel it and our schools could compete again. Personally, I would prefer that we play in the playoffs because I'd like to see an HBCU finally win a national championship.

I notice that and that why I made the comparision. Because you said school. Not conference. For example. Even if JSU administration was in favored of participating in the NCAA play-offs, although the could pull out of the conference align with a conference it would be a difficult decision.

The same can be said for many BCS and non-BCS level. Depending on the shake-up of Big East Conference as you have alluded to Louisville because the have continued to build and invest in their program are in a position to land a spot in the Big East and depending on whom else joins the Big East Conference it may remain as a BCS school.

This would change the dynamics of the equation and it was not a direct result of the or through no fault of their own. But it is because they continued to invest in their "over-all quality" program to be in the right place for opportunities that come their way. Many say luck is when presitences meats opportunity.

Your example of Louisville is interesting, especially since they're bound for the ACC or Big East. However you're not looking at 2 factors:

I am interest in your what you may propose.

1) While Conference USA is to me a relevant conference(good TV exposure, decent bowl tie-ins), no team in this conference ever had a real chance of competitng in a national championship.

True and I agree with that.

But I am only stating that by my definition they are relevant because 1) they had the ability to place a solid product on the field, 2) they had solid numbers in the stands, and 3) they operated their program in the black. Especially considering the fact that you mentioned that they are not a BCS member. In my opinion, because of this they are not at the top of the food chain in terms of deciding the next direction of their program that may lead them to move even more relevant by your definition by becoming a member of BCS conference at this time that may keep their BCS spot, just like UConn has done as well and they have done in a different scenario.

Quote]2) Louisville is apparantly bound for one of the BCS conferences, but not so much on the strength of the football program, but because of the Basketball team as well. Look at a school like UConn, headed for the Big East from D-1AA. These schools have successful, money-making basketball teams that gives them great leverage in becoming affiliates with power conferences. The same goes for Cinncinnati and maybe Memphis.[/Quote] Yes I realize and have looked at this factor. As I alluded to above it is based on the overall success and quality of their program. The point I am making is this, it did not happen by accident. It did not happen because the program standed pact and remained a independent in football and stayed in the old basketball conference.

In my opinion, they made critical and difficult decisions to move their program forward after evaluating the current athletic landscape at the time and made what they thought was the best decision for the program under the circumstances as well as under the premis that they would continue to evaluate the athletic landscape as things changed and opportunities came their way.

I am only suggesting that Florida A & M is doing the samething as this point in time and that all HBCU programs should be evaluating their current athletic landscape to make the best decision for their programs. So the will be proactive and not reactive when different opportunties come their way.

They had key administrators that continued to build the program and had direction for the program and continued to evaluate and build on past and current strategic plans.

Remember at one time Louisville was an independent program. At one time Florida State was an independent program an all girl school. At one time Miami was an independent program, At one point Penn State was an indendent program. At one point Virginia Tech was not a power football program and was an independent. At one point UConn was a Div I AA program.

Again this position that the colleges find their athletic programs did not happen by accident or by standing pat at what they where doing they continued analize, plan, and make commitments with their athletic programs with the push of leadership.

I am only stating, although it maybe difficult, that if you have leadership with the vission in planning and to commitment and the need to understand the dynamics in which they must administrated their athletic programs as well as academic for that matter they can make a difference and their athletic programs can be revelant at any level.

Remember it is not an accident that Florida A & M University has went from 4,000~5,000 students 15-20 years ago among many of its HBCU pears to over 11,000 students and still growing today while may other HBCU programs that where the same size at that time have not grown in enrollement size at the same rate over that same period of time.

It seems that the NCAA as it is now is consolidating all of the power into the top 4-5 conferences. And the only way you can get in is if 1)you have a historical affiliation(Vandy, etc) or 2) you bring some national credibility and the ability to add revenue to the conference in one fo the major sports.

I agree. So are you suggesting that institutions that have not understood this should stop in their efforts to reach those goals in a reasonable fashion now?

This has stop any of our HBCU institutions in continuing to grow and continuing to push legislation for academic programs that would elevate the national status of various aacademic HBCU programs as well as continuing to strive to reach or hold onto those levels of success.

In my opinion, if you stand pact you will fall behind.

 

[JSU/99]

No one is suggesting that you stop improving. But it seems that some are suggesting that the only way you can make improvement is by moving up to d-1a. All I'm saying is right now, your best bet is to make improvements and try to be a power where you are instead of moving up a level. I'd rather JSU continue to move the program forward within d-1aa for now. If at some point in the future we outgrow this division, then lets look at moving up.

 

[JROCK]

Originally posted by unknown1
Most of your post is just babble so i'll just address this....if UAB gets to many "better" recruits than ASU, then why did UAB lose to them the last time they played? Fluke? Would UAB beat Georgia Southern? No. And its easy for you to compare a FEW D-IAA schools with little success on the championship level to schools like USM, HELL IT DOESNT TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO KNOW WHO GETS BETTER RECRUITS OUT OF THAT! And if you think ULL gets better recruits than upper echelon D-IAA's then I dont even know what to say for you. Hell if that were the case they why arent they using those recruits to win games? Fact remains that whether you're D-IAA or D-IA, you have to win to get good recruits, bottom line. Outside of the BCS and Marshall, how many bottom feeder D-IA's are on national tv on a week to week basis when it isnt regional? And just because you move to D-IA doesnt mean you "step up". I think you need to take a look at the success ratio of the teams that have done it thus far. More are losing money than gaining money. Many are having to move back down. And for the record, you dont have to go D-IA to improve your facilities or your program....call TSU's AD and ask them how many more blue chippers they're getting now as a doormat team than they were when they were winning at the D-IAA level. Johnny Williams, Director of Athletics 334-670-3482.

You must be stupid if you think I am going to call anyone about this dialogue. I disrespectfully disagree with your perspective.

 

[unknown]

The only stupid thing in this thread is the fact that you think that just because a school is D-IA they'll get better recruits than a good D-IAA school. Hell even the AD @ TSU will tell you that.

 

[JROCK]

Originally posted by unknown1
The only stupid thing in this thread is the fact that you think that just because a school is D-IA they'll get better recruits than a good D-IAA school. Hell even the AD @ TSU will tell you that.

UAB gets to many "better" recruits than ASU, then why did UAB lose to them the last time they played? Fluke? Would UAB beat Georgia Southern? No.

NCAAF 1 2 3 4 F
- - - - --
Uab 3 7 0 3 13
Lsu 0 0 7 3 10 FINAL

THIS MEETING WAS IN 2000

With your warped logic....Ga Southern and Bama State would beat LSU.

You really need to give it up!

 

[unknown]

Originally posted by Jafus (Thinker)
Unknown1,



That is an interesting take. But I think you may have helped JROCK's side of the debate. The last time they played both programs where at the NCAA Div I-AA level and where operating under the same NCAA rules for their classification as well as UAB had just recently started building the program. As, JROCK noted, most would say in terms of football facilities (weight room, medical, and etc) that UAB has past Alabama State.

After just starting football in 1991 at NCAA Division III level

1993-1995 Division I AA level

UAB vs Alabama State
Record: 0-2-0

Game 1-L 09-03-1994 - Alabama 27 Def UAB 24 in Mont, AL

Game 2-L 09-02-1995 - Alabama State 13 Def UAB 3 in Birm, AL

1996 Division I A level

I would love to read or watch Alabama State beat UAB. But I not do think it is very realistic to imagine that a Div I AA Alabama State could now beat a Div I A UAB football squad.




I do not agree with that assumption. I would think if they played 5 times that UAB would win 4 of 5 times against Georgia Southern, especially given with the current state of affairs the game would be in Birmingham, Alabama. Based on the numbers of scholarships 85 versus 63, quality of athletes per number of capita, and quality competition faced week-in and week-out.



How do you selectivley come to conclusion that Florida A & M can not build a program to rival LaTech, Marshall, or Fresno State?

Neither of us have any real power in the decisions that will determine if Florida A & M can build their program to equal statue or surpass the statue of any of the programs list.

At least at this point you must admit that great deal will determine of what their conference alignment to consist of and though we all may guess and have significant hypthesis on the subject. Hell, the Big East Conference commissioner has admitted publically that the he does not know what direction the Big East Conference will take because the presidents have yet to make a decision.

This will go along way in determining the ultimate structure of the rest of the mid-major conference landscape and the possiblities are endless. So, in my opinion, it is difficult to state what the future hold for Florida A & M University. There are to many parts to puzzle that must shake out first, before a legitimate assessment can actually be made.

Surely you would admit that. Would you not?

Umm, UAB BARELY beat a battered 3-8 Troy State last year, and they werent even supposed to win that game. TSU gave the game away. My point as far as ASU/UAB is that UAB isnt any better now than they were then, ask any school that they play in C-USA, which is why they're a doormat team and considering cancelling their football program altogether. Did the rise to D-IA make them better, give them better recruits, give them more money or exposure? No, as a matter of fact it did just the opposite. As far as FAMU getting to the point of rivaling Marshall....it's a pipe dream but it could happen. But at that point wouldnt they barely be scraping by in generating revenue? After all, Marshall is. And they average what, 27K fans without counting bowl games or "classics", so we cant say that they dont have a following.

 

[unknown]

Originally posted by JROCK
NCAAF 1 2 3 4 F
- - - - --
Uab 3 7 0 3 13
Lsu 0 0 7 3 10 FINAL

THIS MEETING WAS IN 2000

With your warped logic....Ga Southern and Bama State would beat LSU.

You really need to give it up!

You choose one game from 2000, a season which had zero to do with UAB/ASU or GSU and what point were you attempting to make here? Why not show their drubbing from UCF, Pitt, or FSU? UF, ULL, Southern Miss or Louisville? You would conveniently pick the one season that they go 7-4 and pic one game they win to try and make a point. And if you want to do that, lets matchup scores from teams GSU & UAB played and see what we come up with. Hell if we do that and UAB lucked up and beat LSU, then GSU could too, right? Why dont you use UAB's 1995 season to make a comparison instead of the one where they actually did something.

 

[JROCK]

Originally posted by unknown1
You choose one game from 2000, a season which had zero to do with UAB/ASU or GSU and what point were you attempting to make here? Why not show their drubbing from UCF, Pitt, or FSU? UF, ULL, Southern Miss or Louisville? You would conveniently pick the one season that they go 7-4 and pic one game they win to try and make a point. And if you want to do that, lets matchup scores from teams GSU & UAB played and see what we come up with. Hell if we do that and UAB lucked up and beat LSU, then GSU could too, right? Why dont you use UAB's 1995 season to make a comparison instead of the one where they actually did something.

We are talking 1-AA v.s. 1-A......UAB WAS 1-AA and a 4 year old program in 1995. (After just starting football in 1991 at NCAA Division III level)

Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles could both see that UAB has left 95% of 1-AA behind. Again, I will agree to disagree with your perspective.

 

[unknown]

Originally posted by JROCK
We are talking 1-AA v.s. 1-A......UAB WAS 1-AA and a 4 year old program in 1995. (After just starting football in 1991 at NCAA Division III level)

Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles could both see that UAB has left 95% of 1-AA behind. Again, I will agree to disagree with your perspective.

What 95% would that be? You still havent proven your point that a recruit is going to pick a D-IA over a D-IAA no matter how good their record.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

JSU/99,

No one is suggesting that you stop improving. But it seems that some are suggesting that the only way you can make improvement is by moving up to d-1a. All I'm saying is right now, your best bet is to make improvements and try to be a power where you are instead of moving up a level. I'd rather JSU continue to move the program forward within d-1aa for now. If at some point in the future we outgrow this division, then lets look at moving up.

That is fine and a very valid point and I am not saying that you can not improve yourself or be a relevant HBCU program at the NCAA I-A, I-AA, II, III, or NAIA I levels. If you look closesly I have only stated that a HBCU or any program for that mater can improve themself and be relevant at any given level.

Again my debate is about the ability of a HBCU program to improve or be a relevant program at any given level. You have suggested that a HBCU program can be relevant at any given level except Div I-A. I respectfully disagree.

I understand your rational behind your comments on why not, but I respectful disagree. I attempted to provide you information or various scenarios to provide you with why I disagree. But, you do not give them credence or do not believe they are valid in the case of HBCU programs.