Let Us Reason: The Exodus Story.....

[JayRob]

Satan is an angelic creature. He is capable of taking on many forms. Satan did not outsmart Adam. Adam simply disobeyed.

He certainly did outsmart Adam. He knew to reach Adam through Eve. That's how he outsmarted him.

What Job, Elijah, Jesus, and Paul have in common with Moses, Joshua, Caleb, et. al. is that they were all humans who evidenced dominion over Satan, which was what you asked:

That's not what I asked at all. I asked for the names of humans who overcame Satan WITHOUT the help of their OT god. You've yet to provide me one. Even Jesus had help from his father.

I delineated several verses that included the persons named. My sampling includes people who lived before Abraham, through the exodus, during the kingdoms, NT, and the church age.

If you count the number of people who were spiritually successful from the time of Abraham until the exodus, the numbers who WEREN'T successful would be more of an embarassment to your OT god. He had very few successes under his belt, while this Satan had more than 99 percent. It's a good thing you didn't go all the way back to Noah or the numbers for the OT god would've been even more embarassing.

Besides that, there were more than three people who lived through the exodus and into the Promised Land. I am sure that you've read that. I won't let you forget it.

Those folks didn't make it because they obeyed, they made it because they weren't part of that generation that was cursed NOT to make it.
Even when they made it, the people STILL weren't satisfied and still ended up hating their god and rebelling.

You can try and make like the OT god was a success, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to observe and see that when it came to saving his people from disobedience, he was a miserable failure.

I have no need to prove the inaccuracy of your opinions. I simply let them stand on their own. You've presented no proof to substantiate what you contend. Therefore, it is simply conjecture.

Fact of the matter is that you CAN'T prove the inaccuracy. Your only alternative is to gloss over it or to ignore it. You've obviously chosen to do both.
Research and archaeology have clearly proved that Christianity is copied from previous religions. Your mother church, the Catholic church, has all but admitted such.

Paul and I agree that Christ makes the difference (Rom 7:25 - 8:3). That one can be carnally minded even though he has the Spirit (Rom 7: 1-24; 8:4 - 14). And those having the Spirit and walking in the Spirit - OBEYING HIS LEADERSHIP - have the confidence of ultimate victory through sonship and reliance on the Spirit to guide us to it (Romans 8:15- 39). No. I don't not expect you to understand the scriptures.

You can say that you and Paul agree til the cows come home. Your previous posts prove otherwise. Even the above phrase "through sonship and reliance on the Spirit to guide us to it", show that ONLY with the holy spirit could biblical people overcome Satan. There would be no need for any holy spirit if folks could overcome Satan alone.
Why you continue to discredit, not only yourself, but the biblical holy spirit, whether knowingly or unknowingly, continues to baffle me.
Take heart though, it's only fiction.

JayRob, I need you to prove nothing about anything that you don't believe. Of course all we really know is what you don't believe.

So you refuse to follow Paul's admonition to "prove ALL things"? It's more prudent for you to ignore most of my posts because it's obvious that you, like the others, continue to dig yourselves in huge ditches you can't climb out of, unless you simply admit when you're wrong.

Jesus confronted Jews, Samaritan, and Romans. John confronted Jews. What is your point?

My point is that the verses I mentioned clearly showed that Jesus commanded the audience to clean the INSIDE of the cup, not the outside.
Jesus also told his disciples that the spirit dwelled WITH them, but would be IN them soon. You just glossed over that as if it meant nothing. Why would your savior make such a VITAL statement, a statement you're choosing to ignore? It's because you simply don't want to admit that the spirit wasn't in most of the people before Pentecost. Not until Pentecost did the spirit dwell in the masses.

They were about to be overrun by a hurricane. They knew it just as sure as the people of New Orleans knew about Katrina coming. Those who would choose to leave with plenty of time were able to preserve their lives. Stuff is stuff and you can start over again. Or...they could stay and try to fight it out, and possibly lose their lives. I live in Florida. When they tell us to evacuate, I am outta here.

W-A-R. I think I have mentioned that several times now.

You still didn't address the simple questions I asked. War is not an excuse. The other folks never declared war on the Israelites. Why is it so hard for you to admit obvious injustices, yet when it comes to Hitler and the Jews, you easily admit such injustices? The OT Israelite invasions are no more different in principal than what Hitler did to the Jews.

I'll ask them again. Those questions are....
--So the Canaanites were to leave their land peaceably and go where?
--Take their families and go where?
--And for what reason?
ESPECIALLY THESE QUESTIONS....
--Is that showing love, joy, peace, humility, gentleness and kindness by telling these people to leave their land for no reason?
--You call the killings and murders love?

 

[Dr H..]

So the people took their dough before the yeast was added, and carried it on their shoulders in kneading troughs wrapped in clothing. 35………..

Ok, so what’s your point! They were still Nomads traveling for forty years in the Sinai "on foot".

As I asked before what artifacts are you seeking? They did not build cities or towns; they were constantly on the move. The surrounding nations did not have to record the presence of the Hebrews to validate their existence.
Please answer my question!

There are Nomads living in the Sinai “2010†once they move their tents and animals, do the leave any evidence they were there?

The Sinai const of sand, not trees, so when the sand blows it consumes and cover everything it come in contact with. So what evidence would leave after a thousand years of blowing sand?

So do you expect to find a few gold and silver trinkets in the sand or a loaf of unleavened bread? If the Hebrews had gold or silver coins, would not the sand not erode them away after a few thousand years of blowing sand? If, not they would be buried under the sand.

Now answer my other question, have the archeologist searched the entire Sinai.

Dude, how can you even fix your mind to even compare Chernobyl to an exodus?

Don’t act stupid, you know my comparison was a comparative statement, meaning if some the cities around Chernobyl are hardly recognizable, after 20 years, what you expect to find in the Sinai after a thousand years. The cities were not “part†of the explosion; they were abandoned because of the fallout. If concrete, iron and asphalt can deteriorate in twenty years, what would be the results of cloth, leather and other material used by the Hebrews?

Answer the questions:

Can you prove that the Exodus did not happen?

 

[dacontinent]

Check your own posts. You never asked for the names of humans who overcame Satan without the help of God. I merely short-circuited by making the point that man never had to be without the help of God. It was never intended to be that way.

Man was never intended to be an automaton. He was given the choice that you enjoy. God made provision for that before the world was framed. And with that, He made certain that He would show Himself smarter than we can reason.

Catholicism is not and never has been the mother of Christianity. You know that.

You can continue to languish in ignorance because of your carnality. If so, it will prove to be your undoing. Man was designed to operate WITH the Spirit of God - from the Garden of Eden through eternity. If you can't see that, then you are simply blind to it.

Paul's admonition to prove all things has to do with doctrines and manifestations in the Church. The historical elements were settled even in the Greek world to which he was speaking. If not, then those folks would have had to prove those microscopic organisms that they could not see but knew existed.

Jesus never commanded the audience not to clean the outside. Rather, he commanded them to be certain to clean the inside. The Spirit dwelled WITH the disciples IN HIM. He would soon be gone and they would be receiving an endowment that would be IN them. It is really easy to connect those dots. I addressed the questions that you asked; you just didn't like my answers. I can be a bit more direct if it will help you:
--So the Canaanites were to leave their land peaceably and go where?
--Take their families and go where?
--And for what reason?
Since these are so integrally connected, they would go wherever they would not be killed. Wouldn't you? Maybe you wouldn't. That is why I gave the hurricane analogy.

--Is that showing love, joy, peace, humility, gentleness and kindness by telling these people to leave their land for no reason? No, the takeover of the land of Canaan was not an act of love to those who inhabited it prior to the Israelites. Read Deut 7 and you will get the idea. If you read enough, you will find that these people were not "innocent".
--You call the killings and murders love? Nah. I call them WAR, as I have said repeatedly.

 

[JayRob]

Ok, so what’s your point! They were still Nomads traveling for forty years in the Sinai "on foot".

As I asked before what artifacts are you seeking? They did not build cities or towns; they were constantly on the move. The surrounding nations did not have to record the presence of the Hebrews to validate their existence.
Please answer my question!

There are Nomads living in the Sinai “2010â€￾ once they move their tents and animals, do the leave any evidence they were there?

The Sinai const of sand, not trees, so when the sand blows it consumes and cover everything it come in contact with. So what evidence would leave after a thousand years of blowing sand?

So do you expect to find a few gold and silver trinkets in the sand or a loaf of unleavened bread? If the Hebrews had gold or silver coins, would not the sand not erode them away after a few thousand years of blowing sand? If, not they would be buried under the sand.

Now answer my other question, have the archeologist searched the entire Sinai.

Dude, how can you even fix your mind to even compare Chernobyl to an exodus?

Don’t act stupid, you know my comparison was a comparative statement, meaning if some the cities around Chernobyl are hardly recognizable, after 20 years, what you expect to find in the Sinai after a thousand years. The cities were not “partâ€￾ of the explosion; they were abandoned because of the fallout. If concrete, iron and asphalt can deteriorate in twenty years, what would be the results of cloth, leather and other material used by the Hebrews?

Answer the questions:

Can you prove that the Exodus did not happen?

It's obvious that you're posting just to say that you responded. I've answered all of your questions more than once. Not one time have you offered anything concrete to support an exodus, not even something as simple as records from other nations.
You have nothing except your bible to stand on. Deep down in your heart of denial, you KNOW the ground that you stand on is no more stable than the sands of the Sinai Desert. You have nothing to support any exodus, nothing at all.

With "Dr." in front of your name, one would think you could produce SOME evidence, but up until now, you've produced nothing but opinion after opinion, no evidence.
You even made ludricous comments such as, "everything the Israelites left with was biodegradable." You didn't even know (at least I HOPE you didn't), that they left with much gold and silver. You didn't know that they left with the riches of Egypt, which more than likely included jewelry as well. Gold, silver and expensive jewelry are not biodegradable Mr. H.
It would do you well to simply remove the "Dr." from your name and just call yourself "H" cause you're giving "real" doctors a bad name because your responses are along the lines of high school or undergrad quality and nowhere near to being doctoral.

 

[JayRob]

Check your own posts. You never asked for the names of humans who overcame Satan without the help of God. I merely short-circuited by making the point that man never had to be without the help of God. It was never intended to be that way.

Whether it was intended to be that way or not, for nearly 4000 old testament years, mankind didn't have much access to an IN-dwelling of any holy spirit.

Man was never intended to be an automaton. He was given the choice that you enjoy. God made provision for that before the world was framed. And with that, He made certain that He would show Himself smarter than we can reason.

The old covenant has nothing to do with being an automaton. It had to do with a dictatorial and tyrannical god commanding his people perform actions of overcoming Satan he KNEW they couldn't. In other words, he set his own people up for failure and guess what? They failed miserably.

Catholicism is not and never has been the mother of Christianity. You know that.

The Catholic church sustained Christianity, when it was about to be dissolved and overrun by the Muslims. The Proestants came out of the Catholic church in protest, so yes, they ARE your mother church whether you want to admit it or not.

You can continue to languish in ignorance because of your carnality. If so, it will prove to be your undoing. Man was designed to operate WITH the Spirit of God - from the Garden of Eden through eternity. If you can't see that, then you are simply blind to it.

It's you who seem more comfortable languishing in ignorance. The fact of the matter is that the Israelites were never offered the holy spirit of the OT god in the old covenant. If they were, all you have to do is show me. Show me the verses where the Israelites were offered the holy spirit of their OT god.

Paul's admonition to prove all things has to do with doctrines and manifestations in the Church. The historical elements were settled even in the Greek world to which he was speaking. If not, then those folks would have had to prove those microscopic organisms that they could not see but knew existed.

In other words, you have no proof. Just as I thought. Here I am, confidently presenting evidence after evidence, but you're weakly claiming that you don't have too, so you don't. It's not that you don't want too, it's that you can't produce credible evidence because there is none.

Jesus never commanded the audience not to clean the outside. Rather, he commanded them to be certain to clean the inside. The Spirit dwelled WITH the disciples IN HIM. He would soon be gone and they would be receiving an endowment that would be IN them. It is really easy to connect those dots.

He said to FIRST clean the inside. You know the verses. He told his disciples in clear and irrefutable language that the spirit dwelled WITH them, but would be IN them.
After he had gone to his father and after he had been approved to become their intercessor, which didn't occur until AFTER he was resurrected and taken to heaven......after his approval, the holy spirit was granted several days later and that day was called Pentecost.

Jesus having the spirit had no bearing on the disciples not having it. What good did it do the disciples for Christ to have power within himself and they not have it within themselves? It obviously didn't do them much good because they all forsook him.

Christ had the FULL measure of the holy spirit WITHIN, which gave him the power to resist Satan. If he couldn't have overcome Satan without such power within, how could the Israelites be expected to do so.
Why couldn't the Israelites have been given that same chance? It was never offered to them to begin with. This is why I say they were set up to fail.
Imagine if your precious Jesus only had the holy spirit dwelling with him, but not IN him? He would've failed to play his part in the fictional story. As a matter of fact, there wouldn't be any fictional story to begin with.

I addressed the questions that you asked; you just didn't like my answers. I can be a bit more direct if it will help you:
--So the Canaanites were to leave their land peaceably and go where?
--Take their families and go where?
--And for what reason?
Since these are so integrally connected, they would go wherever they would not be killed. Wouldn't you? Maybe you wouldn't. That is why I gave the hurricane analogy.

--Is that showing love, joy, peace, humility, gentleness and kindness by telling these people to leave their land for no reason? No, the takeover of the land of Canaan was not an act of love to those who inhabited it prior to the Israelites. Read Deut 7 and you will get the idea. If you read enough, you will find that these people were not "innocent".
--You call the killings and murders love? Nah. I call them WAR, as I have said repeatedly.

Continue to stick your head in the sand while claiming to be part of a religion predicated on "love". It's quite obvious that you're incapable of being truthful and objective when it comes to addressing the crimes and injustices of your OT god. This is why people don't take fundamentalist Christians and their teachings serious anymore. This is why your numbers are dwindling as we speak.
You all are so quick to point the finger at other religions and despots, but when it comes to your own, especially the murders and genocide in the OT, you can't bring yourself to admit it's evil. Instead, you make excuse after excuse, all the while knowing in your heart that what was done to those people was nothing less than pure murder and evil.

But let someone talk about Hitler. You don't label his actions as "justified war" against the Jews, you call it "evil" and a holocaust. Why is it evil for him, but not evil for the OT god? You can't have it both ways.
Such attitudes wreak of pure hypocrisy through and through.

 

[dacontinent]

Make up your mind. On the one hand you say that Christ had the full measure of the Holy Spirit within Him but question what good it did for His disciples. The answer is

• when He sent out the 70-82 (depending on how you read it), demonic spirits were subject to them;
• still after they returned, there were other spirits that they failed to cast out;
• [hold on to your seat] the varying endowments of the Spirit were invested completely in Jesus, but were dispersed throughout His body, making us interdependent of each other.

You see, the key to the manifestation of the fullness of the Spirit is our unity. If you want to focus on human weakness in Christianity, that is where you should be sticking your cattle prod.

Whether people choose to follow Christ or not is up to them. Without faith none of us would make the right choice. So, God gave everyone some. We have no excuses. We are all accountable.

God has shown repeatedly what he can do with smaller numbers. Every nation in the Promised Land outnumbered Israel. That is part of the reason why He chose them. The list goes on and on.

If God needed man's approval or popularity to make Him who He is, there would be no bible. In fact, there would be no history.

 

[Dr H..]

JR

You do not believe in the creation or evolution “so you sayâ€￾ I see that you are avoiding some questions. Why are you depending on a group of archeologist, you should be able to answer the questions I asked. Personally, knowing the Hebrews was a group of Nomads traveling from place to place in the Sinai over a period of 40 years “Dr. H.â€￾ does not expect archeologist, to find anything. Why, because you would have to know the trail, encampments and places of encampments and such like. Now, this would be extremely hard to accomplish 1500 years after the event and considering they could have been anywhere in the Sinai which covers 23,000 sq mi “Larger than several statesâ€￾

As I asked three times before, please explain your existence, you evolved from a lower form of life or you were part of God’s creation.
You are Johnny come lately, contact some the ASU posters and they can tell you the source of the Dr. H. Now, if they departed Egypt with a cargo plane full of gold and silver, do you expect to find it all in one location?

Questions: What do you expect archeologist to find as it relates to the Nomads.

Answer my questions:

 

[JayRob]

Make up your mind. On the one hand you say that Christ had the full measure of the Holy Spirit within Him but question what good it did for His disciples. The answer is

• when He sent out the 70-82 (depending on how you read it), demonic spirits were subject to them;

• 
  
  So what? Even false christians could cast out demons, so what you say doesn't mean much at all.
  Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
  7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
  
  

  still after they returned, there were other spirits that they failed to cast out;

  
  You provide evidence against your own theory. The disciples didn't have the holy spirit, that's why they couldn't cast out others. They didn't have the power to do so. This is more evidence showing that humans do not have power over Satan according to your fiction book.
  
  

  [hold on to your seat] the varying endowments of the Spirit were invested completely in Jesus, but were dispersed throughout His body, making us interdependent of each other.

  
  Humans are interdependent on each other WITHOUT any holy spirit. What you're saying is no revelation at all. "No man is an island".
  
  

  You see, the key to the manifestation of the fullness of the Spirit is our unity. If you want to focus on human weakness in Christianity, that is where you should be sticking your cattle prod.

  
  You initially claimed that Adam was stronger than Satan and that he had dominion over him, now you're going against your initial argument and basically saying what I said several posts ago. I said all along that apart from the holy spirit, man couldn't overcome Satan, now you're jumping on the bandwagon, albeit a few posts too late.
  
  

  Whether people choose to follow Christ or not is up to them. Without faith none of us would make the right choice. So, God gave everyone some. We have no excuses. We are all accountable.

  
  Keep doing what slaves do when their master mistreats them. They blame themselves, while letting their master go scott free, no matter how wrong he treats them. This is the worst form of sado-masochism known to man and fundamentalists seem to love it with a passion.
  
  

  God has shown repeatedly what he can do with smaller numbers. Every nation in the Promised Land outnumbered Israel. That is part of the reason why He chose them. The list goes on and on.

  
  Every nation in the "promised land" didn't outnumber the Israelites. Name one nation in the "promised land" that had 2-3 million people....just one.
  For you to say that Israel was the smallest nation in the "promised land" is not true at all. As a matter of fact, records show that the Canaanites numbered around 50,000 or so, which is nowhere near 2-3 million people.
  
  Again, you're continuing to make excuse after excuse after excuse in trying to justify obvious injustices perpetrated by the OT god.
  Whomever did the job of brainwashing folks, should get a gold medal when it comes to fundamentalist Christians.....they really should.
  
  

  If God needed man's approval or popularity to make Him who He is, there would be no bible. In fact, there would be no history.

  
  Dacon, your god is nowhere near being a "true" anything. The bible wreaks of the following: it's unreliable, inconsistent, contradictory, copied, full of violent commands, prejudiced against women, racist, respectful of persons; in many cases it doesn't align with what science has proven to be true; it's filled with unfulfilled prophecies, and so much more that's been proven to be false.
  There's no way a book so full of the above can be authored by an omnipotent, all-knowing and all-powerful god.
  
  This is more evidence to support why I continue to say that men formed "the OT god" in HIS image, not the other way around. The same goes for other religions.
  The Christian god is simply a man-made god, thought up by mere ignorant mortals, searching for life's meaning as best they could with the little knowledge they had back then.
  The bible has nothing to do with any inspiration from the "holy" spirit of an OT god.

 

[JayRob]

You do not believe in the creation or evolution “so you sayâ€￾ I see that you are avoiding some questions.

Dude, why you choose to lie and claim that I'm avoiding questions is ludricous. It's you whose avoiding legit questions.

Why are you depending on a group of archeologist, you should be able to answer the questions I asked.

My answers are far more detailed and accurate than anything you've posted. Why are you depending on fictitious men who supposedly wrote the bible? You have no inkling of who they are, their writings are inconsistent, found to be scientifically invalid, full of lies, full of violence you're afraid to talk about, full of ludricous miracles that totally defy the laws of science, so WHY do you question me when your beliefs are light years more ludricous and illogical than my beliefs will ever be?

Personally, knowing the Hebrews was a group of Nomads traveling from place to place in the Sinai over a period of 40 years “Dr. H.â€￾ does not expect archeologist, to find anything. Why, because you would have to know the trail, encampments and places of encampments and such like. Now, this would be extremely hard to accomplish 1500 years after the event and considering they could have been anywhere in the Sinai which covers 23,000 sq mi “Larger than several statesâ€￾

Dude, you sound like a broken record all scratched up. You make no sense at all. You keep asking the same futile questions, when the answer was posted two and three time.
I continue to produce valid evidence over and over, but you refuse to see it because of your obvious biases and fear of admitting that your religion not what you thought it was.

I generously provided valid reasons as to why the exodus just didn't happen. It's like it goes in one side of your brain and out the other.
We know this stems from your refusal to believe the obvious, that your religion is a forgery.

As I asked three times before, please explain your existence, you evolved from a lower form of life or you were part of God’s creation.

And for the umpteenth time, I said neither. Why would you even bother to aske me about some fictitious creation when I don't even believe the bible? And when did I ever claim to be an atheist? I answered your question as clear as possible. I said neither.
Just because man exists, whose to say WHO formed him? From what I've come to know, it CERTAINLY wasn't the OT god in a garden of Eden.

You are Johnny come lately, contact some the ASU posters and they can tell you the source of the Dr. H. Now, if they departed Egypt with a cargo plane full of gold and silver, do you expect to find it all in one location?

Like I said earlier, you seriously should consider removing the "Dr." from your name and just call yourself "H". True and legit doctors are interested in peer-reviewed evidence, research-based information, proven information that's solid, not something that's hypothetical or opinionated. So far all you've offered are the latter two.
You made the statement that 100 percent.....100 percent.....100 percent of what the Israelites took from Egypt was biodegradable. Is silver biodegradable? Is gold biodegradable? Now answer those questions. LOL!!

Questions: What do you expect archeologist to find as it relates to the Nomads.

It's not what they've found, it's what they HAVEN'T found, but since you asked, I'll tell you.
Archaeologists have found evidence of several nomadic tribes in the Sinai area that are much smaller than the Israelites. You read, but you don't read because you refuse to believe that your bible is seriously flawed.

 

[Dr H..]

The disciples didn't have the Holy Spirit, that's why they couldn't cast out others.

The disciple did not need the Holy Spirit to cast out demons. They had the power (authority- Matthew 10:1) to cast out demons. But they failed [at one point] to do so, because of their “unbelief / lack of faith†[It was not the quantity of their faith that was deficient but its quality. Matthew 17:19.

Jesus had not yet revealed the Spirit's relationship to the disciples until after His departure into heaven (John 14—16). Here He simply assured them of the Spirit's help. And they did receive Holy Spirit “Book of Acts†And Jesus did not promise them the Holy Spirit, until after his death according to John 14:16

Later on the disciples cast out demons

Mark 6:13 “And they [disciples] were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them.â€

Acts 16:16-18 “And it happened ……..


Dude, why you choose to lie and claim that I'm avoiding questions is ludricous. It's you whose avoiding legit questions.


Because you have not answered the question. So which are you, the results of evolution from a lower form or life or are you part of God's creation as spoken of in Genesis - answer the question! I will make it easy, select one of the following answers.

A. I am part of the theory of evolution. I am the by product beginning with a lower form of life.

B. I am part of God's plan "creation"

 

[dacontinent]

Dr. H is right on target ^^^^. I couldn't better that so I will leave it like it lies.

The interdependence that I spoke of has specifically to do with the work of the Spirt. Humans don't need the Spirit for interdependence; we need interdependence to see the full manifestation of the Spirit. Jesus hade the full measure (Col 1) while he was here on earth, but believers don't have that in the same way. The gifts and anointings are distributed throughout the BODY of Christ, with Jesus still as our Head.

Adam had only to exercise his authority - even after Eve ate and before he did - and he would have defeated Satan. When God found them naked in the garden, He covered them with skins and not leaves. Blood had to be spilled to COVER their sin.

Consult the histories of the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. All of their armies outnumbered Israel's. Don't take my word for it. Do your own research.

 

[Dr H..]

Jesus hade the full measure

No doubt about it, because He is part of the Godhead as is the Holy Spirit, they are seperate but have one function. We know Jesus had the indwelling and outpouring of the Holy Spirit [Luke 3:22].

"Incarniation" He needed the Holy Spirit, because He had "stripped" Himself of most of the attributes of God [Philippians 2:6 ->]

JR

What is the answer to my question, why are you beating around the bush! Are you a product of a lower form of life [Evolution] or part of Gods creation? You appear to be "somewhat intelligent" so this should not be a difficult question to answer!

If you select evolution, remember this is only a thery, whereas, the creation is a fact. Are you the product of a theory, with no foundation. [No Harm Intended] but if you deny the creation, therefore, your family tree has to be part of the theory of evolution. Because an object can only reproduce after it's own kind [you cannot get a man [human] from a monkey of a pig from a cow].

What does your friends in the field of archeology have to say?

 

[JayRob]

The disciple did not need the Holy Spirit to cast out demons. They had the power (authority- Matthew 10:1) to cast out demons. But they failed [at one point] to do so, because of their “unbelief / lack of faith†[It was not the quantity of their faith that was deficient but its quality. Matthew 17:19.

You're basically repeating what I already said. LOL!!

Jesus had not yet revealed the Spirit's relationship to the disciples until after His departure into heaven (John 14—16). Here He simply assured them of the Spirit's help. And they did receive Holy Spirit “Book of Acts†And Jesus did not promise them the Holy Spirit, until after his death according to John 14:16

Again, you're basically repeating what I already said.

Later on the disciples cast out demons

Mark 6:13 “And they [disciples] were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them.â€

Acts 16:16-18 “And it happened ……..

Again, you're repeating what was already said. You failed to mention the fact that other folks were casting out demons too, without the aid of a holy spirit and they weren't disciples.

Because you have not answered the question. So which are you, the results of evolution from a lower form or life or are you part of God's creation as spoken of in Genesis - answer the question! I will make it easy, select one of the following answers.
A. I am part of the theory of evolution. I am the by product beginning with a lower form of life.
B. I am part of God's plan "creation"

If you want the answers to those questions, you'll have to slowly re-read and STUDY my posts. I put them in simple terms I thought you'd be able to comprehend.

As far as answering questions, it's you who are avoiding them. I asked you simple questions such as:

1. How is silver biodegradable?

2. How is gold biodegradable?

3. What evidence is there that an exodus ever occurred?

Remember, I wasn't the one who claimed that everything the Israelites left Egypt with was biodegradable.

 

[JayRob]

Dr. H is right on target ^^^^. I couldn't better that so I will leave it like it lies.

Dr. H virtually repeated what I said earlier, yet you agree with him? How biased and objective can you obviously be? This is so funny.

The interdependence that I spoke of has specifically to do with the work of the Spirt. Humans don't need the Spirit for interdependence; we need interdependence to see the full manifestation of the Spirit. Jesus hade the full measure (Col 1) while he was here on earth, but believers don't have that in the same way. The gifts and anointings are distributed throughout the BODY of Christ, with Jesus still as our Head.

None of that jargon disgards the fact that the Israelites never were offered the holy spirit so that they COULD overcome like Moses, Joshua and Caleb. You're all over the map here, but I'll try and keep you on track as best I can.
Where did the OT god offer the Israelites his spirit for assistance?

Adam had only to exercise his authority - even after Eve ate and before he did - and he would have defeated Satan. When God found them naked in the garden, He covered them with skins and not leaves. Blood had to be spilled to COVER their sin.

If blood had to be spilled, it should've been the blood of that OT god, plain and simple. It was he who allowed Satan in. It was he who asked Adam to do the impossible. It was he who created Satan more powerful than Adam. It was he who didn't present to Adam a full measure of a holy spirit.

Why give the "second" Adam a FULL MEASURE of a holy spirit and not the first Adam? One has to admit that this is pure hypocrisy and an obvious injustice against the first Adam.
Perhaps if the first Adam had been given the full measure, he wouldn't have sinned at all. He wasn't given that opportunity.

Consult the histories of the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. All of their armies outnumbered Israel's. Don't take my word for it. Do your own research.

No, I want you to show me the numbers in a document other than the bible. The bible says the Israelites had 630,000 men when they left Egypt. You can imagine how many soldiers they could've mustered.

Now how could the nations and tribes you mentioned have outnumbered the Israelites on an individual basis when their numbers were nowhere near being 630,000 in independent sources other than the bible?
Again, present independent sources showing that nations such as the Hittites and Canaanites had larger individual armies than the Israelites.

 

[JayRob]

No doubt about it, because He is part of the Godhead as is the Holy Spirit, they are seperate but have one function. We know Jesus had the indwelling and outpouring of the Holy Spirit [Luke 3:22].

"Incarniation" He needed the Holy Spirit, because He had "stripped" Himself of most of the attributes of God [Philippians 2:6 ->]

Everyone knows that the second Adam is said to have had the full measure. That's basic Christianity any brainwashed child should know.

The real question is WHY WASN'T THE FIRST ADAM EQUALLY GIVEN A FULL MEASURE to give him the SAME opportunity and chance to defeat Satan in the beginning?

I can't wait for the excuses I KNOW some are going to try and conjure up to justify the first Adam not receiving it.

JR
What is the answer to my question, why are you beating around the bush! Are you a product of a lower form of life [Evolution] or part of Gods creation? You appear to be "somewhat intelligent" so this should not be a difficult question to answer!

If you select evolution, remember this is only a thery, whereas, the creation is a fact. Are you the product of a theory, with no foundation. [No Harm Intended] but if you deny the creation, therefore, your family tree has to be part of the theory of evolution. Because an object can only reproduce after it's own kind [you cannot get a man [human] from a monkey of a pig from a cow].

What does your friends in the field of archeology have to say?

You continue to childishly harp on a question I've answered more than once.
If you had the skills to ask the RIGHT question, maybe you'd get a bit more information from me, but obviously you don't, so you'll have to settle for the answer I've given to the specific question you asked.

 

[Dr H..]

The real question is WHY WASN'T THE FIRST ADAM EQUALLY GIVEN A FULL MEASURE to give him the SAME opportunity and chance to defeat Satan in the beginning?

Because Adam lived in the age of innonce. And Adam knew what to do and not to do. He did not need the Holy Spirit, because God dealt with Adam and Eve "Face to Face"

childishly harp on a question

This is not a childish question and you have not answered the question " A or B" and as I said we as people by nature know how to select an answer, be it right or wrong.

Be a man and answer my question! You cannot walk the line by saying neither, because that not in the nature of mankind or animals.

Stop being a coward and answer my question.

The question is "again" do you beleive in the creation or evolution and the answer cannot be neither. If so, please explain your existance.

 

[dacontinent]

What Dr. H said is so far away from what you said that you missed it entirely. The Israelites of the OT had the same opportunity that Jesus' disciples had when they were with Him: the manifest presence of God.

Adam had full access to God. He was setup to be successful, but he gave it away. The Second Adam had the FULL MEASURE of the Holy Spirit because

• Jesus was FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN;
• The precedent for indwelling had to be established;
• The dispersal plan for the rest of the Body with Jesus as its Head.

I have the Bible as my source. Present whatever findings you wish.

 

[JayRob]

Because Adam lived in the age of innonce. And Adam knew what to do and not to do. He did not need the Holy Spirit, because God dealt with Adam and Eve "Face to Face"

"H", this has to be one of your worst responses I've seen posted. The age of innocence?! Wow!!
Are you saying that Satan wasn't just as evil back then as he is today? Are you saying that he didn't have an effect on human nature back then as he does today? Adam did not need a holy spirit to conquer Satan?

The OT god supposedly spoke face to face with Moses, but it didn't prevent Moses from sinning.

The fact of the matter is that you can't provide a logical answer, so you came up with another excuse, just like I thought you would. It's quite obvious that Christian fundamentalists will do or say anything, and I mean ANYTHING, to keep from criticizing and making their god look bad.

This is not a childish question and you have not answered the question " A or B" and as I said we as people by nature know how to select an answer, be it right or wrong.

Be a man and answer my question! You cannot walk the line by saying neither, because that not in the nature of mankind or animals.

Stop being a coward and answer my question.

The question is "again" do you beleive in the creation or evolution and the answer cannot be neither. If so, please explain your existance.

Again, your ability to ask the RIGHT question is sorely lacking. I gave you a hint, but you still don't get it. Oh well, hope you figure out the right question to ask, cause I'm chomping at the bit to provide you an answer.

 

[JayRob]

What Dr. H said is so far away from what you said that you missed it entirely.

And I'm not surprised that you'd fabricate. I clearly stated that the disciples didn't need the holy spirit to cast out demons. I also indicated that other non-disciples cast out demons without a holy spirit as well (a point that neither of you have addressed).
You guys are going around the world to only come back and say what I've already said.

The Israelites of the OT had the same opportunity that Jesus' disciples had when they were with Him: the manifest presence of God.

That's fully true at all. I asked you several posts to show me verses indicating that the Israelites were offered a holy spirit.
You haven't done so and there's a reason for that. You simply can't find verses indicating such because that was not part of the old covenant.
THIS is what Paul meant when he talked about the old covenant being flawed. This is why he stated that there was the need for the new covenant, which INCLUDED the offering of a holy spirit.

Why does it take an unbeliever to reveal this to "believers"?

Adam had full access to God. He was setup to be successful, but he gave it away. The Second Adam had the FULL MEASURE of the Holy Spirit because

Having access is not the same as a holy spirit indwelling. How many times do I need to say this. Several OT folks had access, but they didn't have the indwelling.
Adam didn't have an indwelling of a holy spirit to lead him every second of the day. The OT god appeared, then left Adam to fend for himself.

The second Adam had access and INDWELLING of a holy spirit as a guide 24/7. This was not provided to the first Adam and you know it. Don't knowy why you folks want to sit here and say otherwise. You're not talking to a "rookie".

Jesus was FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN;

You can't be FULLY god and FULLY man at the same time. If he was FULLY god, how can god die?

The precedent for indwelling had to be established;

So, by definition, you seem to be admitting that he didn't have the full measure like the second Adam. Now, we're getting somewhere.

The dispersal plan for the rest of the Body with Jesus as its Head.

Whatever that plan is said to have been, it's still no excuse for the OT god leaving the first Adam all by his lonesome to fend for himself. If he had been given a full measure of a holy spirit, he would've been able to destroy Satan's power, but he was never given that opportunity.

This is how deceptive and dishonest the OT god is. All he had to do was provide Adam that 24/7 helper he provided the second Adam and that would've been the difference. The OT god had to know that Adam didn't have a fighting chance.

I have the Bible as my source. Present whatever findings you wish.

Your way of saying crying "uncle". It's obvious you can't provide such evidence and are too prideful to admit it. This is nothing new when folks get caught in a bind, they fall back on the old saying, "the bible said it, that settles it". Total copout is what it is because those numbers in the bible are based on total fiction.
Discovered records clearly show that there was no population increases in that part of the world at the time of the exodus and at the time the Israelites supposedly migrated to the area of Canaan.

 

[Apaquelypse]

You guys are taking this way deeper than it needs to be.....

1st off, Adam didn't need the holy spirit, all he had to do was obey God. The fight between God and Satan is not a fight man had to deal with until after man disobeyed God. God was oh so fair with Adam when he gave him Two "dont's" to follow! Had man obeyed God, and he had the power to do so-especially seeing how Satan could only "trick" Adam into disobeying in the first place. Satan had power even back then, but his power was limited and is limited today to those that obey God.

2ndly Paul never said the old testament covenant was flawed, nor does he suggest. He acknowledges that it was different, that it's purpose was different, but the point I think you missed was that Paul said was that the new covenant was based off faith, and faith only.....


3rdly God never died and neither did Jesus! They are alive and well even today. Yes it defies science and logic, but clearly you know the earth is not operating under mans law or governing principles.

And lastly, God has offered everyone ever born on this earth the equipment to defeat Satan. You really didn't need much then, you still don't need much now. Old testament was obediance, new testament is faith - Both required sacrfices for sin. One difference between the two is that the new testament sacrfice was already given, long before we got here, and at anytime you so choose, God is willing to accept the Sacrifice on your behalf. Don't miss Pauls comission for over analizing one of his letters

 

[Dr H..]

JR

WOW.............worst responses

Indeed, that's because you bible knowledge is limited. Adam was subject, to any and everything, because he had no knowledge of Satan / Lucifer. God gave him simple instructions.

Adam lived during the "age" of dispensation of innocence - from the creation of man to the fall and expulsion.

The second dispensation, is the age of conscience - from the expulsion from the garden to the flood

The third dispensation is the the age of Human Government - from the flood to the Tower of Babel

The fourth dispensation - the promise / patriarchal - from Abraham to the Egyptian Bondage

The fifth dispensation - the Law of God, from Mount Sinai to the death, burial and resurection

The six dispensation - the age of grace from penecost to the coming of Christ. This is the age / period we are now living in.

And last, the dispensation of the Kingdom, from the final judgment to the New Jerusalem.


The first Adam was Adam, created by God. The second Adam was Jesus "go and read your bible"

Several OT folks had access, but they didn't have the indwelling.

Wrong again, The Holy Spirit did not come until after the death of Christ. In the OT, they had direct access to God and Christ. It was not until the NT the Holy Ghost was accessable to mankind - starting in the Book of Acts Chapter 2.

Where in the OT does it say they have access to the Holy Spirit.

When are you going to answer my question? A or B

 

[dacontinent]

I don't fall back on the Bible; I start there and stay there because it is my source. It says that Jesus gave the seventy authority over devils through His name (Lk 10). I don't recall any record of unbelievers casting out demons in the NT. The disciples did not operate against devils prior to that and had instances after that where the did not rid people of demonic influence. This would indicated that there is something more that is sometimes needed. That is not close to what you have said, but I gladly yield to any other disclosure that you can present. I will gladly concede to the truth. Truth only makes me better.

I given you verses showing that Adam and the Israelites of the exodus, those of the conquest, and those of kingdom reigns having the Holy Spirit offered to them. You have refused to accept those verses.

You struggle with Jesus as FULLY God and FULLY man. That's good. You grapple with

Col 1:17-20
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.​

and

Col 2:8-10
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:​

That's okay for now. I still have great hopes for you.

 

[JayRob]

You guys are taking this way deeper than it needs to be.....

1st off, Adam didn't need the holy spirit, all he had to do was obey God. The fight between God and Satan is not a fight man had to deal with until after man disobeyed God. God was oh so fair with Adam when he gave him Two "dont's" to follow! Had man obeyed God, and he had the power to do so-especially seeing how Satan could only "trick" Adam into disobeying in the first place. Satan had power even back then, but his power was limited and is limited today to those that obey God.

Dude, your statement doesn't even make sense. If the fight wasn't between Adam and Satan, why was Satan sent in the garden in the first place against Adam? Why wasn't the OT god right there WITH him as a lawyer would be to his client, as a mother would be to her newborn cubs? That's like my lawyer telling me what to do before court, but not showing up during the trial. The OT god showed up AFTER the fact.

Adam didn't need a holy spirit but his power was limited?! Which is it? The fact of the matter is that he was shortchanged and the OT god knew it. Adam was less than TWO days old, while Satan had been in existence perhaps thousands of years with much experience under his belt. Now tell me how is that a fair fight?
Just telling someone NOT to do something doesn't mean as much as them being given the power to accomplish what they needed to accomplish. Adam wasn't given that chance.
Why it's so hard for you guys to see that Adam was shortchanged clearly shows how subjective and biased you are and how afraid you are of criticizing your OT god by telling the truth.

2ndly Paul never said the old testament covenant was flawed, nor does he suggest. He acknowledges that it was different, that it's purpose was different, but the point I think you missed was that Paul said was that the new covenant was based off faith, and faith only.....

You still don't know what you are talking about. Paul stated that if the first one wasn't flawed, there would be no need for the second. The first coventant was flawed because a holy spirit was not involved.
Heb 8:6-7
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
It's so simple to understand Paul, even an unbeliever like myself understands what he's talking about.

You so-called spirit filled guys need to step up to the plate and gain some understanding of what Paul was talking about.

3rdly God never died and neither did Jesus! They are alive and well even today. Yes it defies science and logic, but clearly you know the earth is not operating under mans law or governing principles.

Yes, it defies logic because it never happened. It's impossible for a person to be both FULLY god and FULLY man. People who believe such are living in an "Alice In Wonderland" ordeal and don't even realize it, then again, maybe they do, but are just too brainwashed to admit it.

And lastly, God has offered everyone ever born on this earth the equipment to defeat Satan. You really didn't need much then, you still don't need much now. Old testament was obediance, new testament is faith - Both required sacrfices for sin. One difference between the two is that the new testament sacrfice was already given, long before we got here, and at anytime you so choose, God is willing to accept the Sacrifice on your behalf. Don't miss Pauls comission for over analizing one of his letters

Again, you make no sense. So you're blaming millions of humans for their lifestyle rather than looking at the entity who supposedly created them? You have to be kidding me. If a product I had created worked less than one percent of the time, I'd have to go back and re-think my plans.
THAT'S what this OT god had to do. This is why he finally offered a holy spirit as a "helper". That's why it's called a "helper", to help humans overcome this Satan.
This "helper" was never offered to the Israelites. This is why the old covenant was flawed and faultless.

 

[JayRob]

JR

Indeed, that's because you bible knowledge is limited. Adam was subject, to any and everything, because he had no knowledge of Satan / Lucifer. God gave him simple instructions.
Adam lived during the "age" of dispensation of innocence - from the creation of man to the fall and expulsion.
The second dispensation, is the age of conscience - from the expulsion from the garden to the flood
The third dispensation is the the age of Human Government - from the flood to the Tower of Babel
The fourth dispensation - the promise / patriarchal - from Abraham to the Egyptian Bondage
The fifth dispensation - the Law of God, from Mount Sinai to the death, burial and resurection
The six dispensation - the age of grace from penecost to the coming of Christ. This is the age / period we are now living in.
And last, the dispensation of the Kingdom, from the final judgment to the New Jerusalem.
The first Adam was Adam, created by God. The second Adam was Jesus "go and read your bible"

Again, you offer no logical reason, just more excuses as to why Adam wasn't offered a helper. Your dispensations mean nothing and have no bearing on this discussion.
The fact of the matter is that the second Adam was given the full measure to fight against Satan and the first Adam, who fought against the SAME evil Satan, wasn't given such help. It's boggles my mind as to why folks like you won't admit a simple truth.

Wrong again, The Holy Spirit did not come until after the death of Christ. In the OT, they had direct access to God and Christ. It was not until the NT the Holy Ghost was accessable to mankind - starting in the Book of Acts Chapter 2.

Where in the OT does it say they have access to the Holy Spirit.

Surely you've got to be kidding me? A holy spirit wasn't offered to ANYONE until AFTER the book of Acts?!
Note: Dacon, why didn't you help your counterpart before he made such a statement? It's obvious you don't have his back.

Didn't Christ have it? Yes.
Didn't David, an OT member, have it? Psalms 51:11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

This one verse proves you to be untruthful and drives yet another nail into your coffin of credibility.

Silver is biodegradable, gold is biodegradable, now THIS?! LOL!!!

 

[JayRob]

I don't fall back on the Bible; I start there and stay there because it is my source. It says that Jesus gave the seventy authority over devils through His name (Lk 10). I don't recall any record of unbelievers casting out demons in the NT.

I know it's your source, that's why your posts aren't anywhere near being accurate or credible, especially when compared to actual evidence found by archaeologists, geologists and other scientists.

I gave you a verse clearly showing that some who weren't with Christ used his name to cast out demons.

The disciples did not operate against devils prior to that and had instances after that where the did not rid people of demonic influence. This would indicated that there is something more that is sometimes needed. That is not close to what you have said, but I gladly yield to any other disclosure that you can present. I will gladly concede to the truth. Truth only makes me better.

That's what your posts say, but when the rubber meets the road, you'll stick to your bible, no matter how illogical the belief. I've offered you accurate and true statements, yet time after time, you've rejected them for unproven jargon in the bible.

So, if the disciples needed "something MORE", why wasn't this Adam given that "something more" as well? Why weren't the Israelites given that "something more"? Either they had what they needed or they didn't. Again, your above post admits to the fact that man, by himself, has no definite authority over Satan since he needs "something more".

I given you verses showing that Adam and the Israelites of the exodus, those of the conquest, and those of kingdom reigns having the Holy Spirit offered to them. You have refused to accept those verses.

Where are those verses? They must be invisible because I've never seen them. Post them again just in case I missed them.

You struggle with Jesus as FULLY God and FULLY man. That's good. You grapple with
Col 1:17-20
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
and
Col 2:8-10
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

That's okay for now. I still have great hopes for you.

Yes, I do grapple with verses because I try my best to grapple with lies. Please explain to me how Jesus could be BOTH fully man and fully god, yet he is supposed to have died? This clearly means that your god HAD TO DIE.
Please explain to me how this god didn't die, yet died?