Homosexuality, reglion and contradiction

[JayRob]

Another question for some to ponder: So, why am I born to need saving because someone else who I've never met, did something bad under the influence of a fallen being, created by the biblical god, could have but didn't bother to destroy? Seems like extortion to me.

I'm trying to see the advantage of worshipping a god who already has me in the negative.:emlaugh:

 

[dacontinent]

JayRob ... we have been over this again and again. You won't accept the Scriptures so they cannot apply to your life. So, rant all you want. You are entitled to do so. Those who read the entire Bible will get the understanding and go foward with that.

 

[JayRob]

JayRob ... we have been over this again and again. You won't accept the Scriptures so they cannot apply to your life. So, rant all you want. You are entitled to do so. Those who read the entire Bible will get the understanding and go foward with that.

Oh, so now speaking the truth is ranting? LOL!! You can't continue to defend the evils outlined in the Old Testament any longer without realizing how foolish one sounds. There's no way one can defend the evils commanded by the Old Testament god and by Moses.

Those who read the bible with a subjective mind and commonsense will get understanding and go forward, that's if they're not held hostage by the beliefs of others. The very ones who taught them never really studied for themselves, nor could they comprehend the many errors, inaccuracies and contradictions. They just accepted what they were taught, then passed it on down to others and so and so on.

Most religious folks have no idea what's in the bible if you were to ask them. I know this because I've asked them. What they think they know is sorely inaccurate.

I must admit that I was taught from a child about the bible, but once I started doing my own research about it's contents, (while not letting the thoughts of a preacher or grandparent or parent or friend cloud my beliefs), THEN and only then did I find out that most of what I was taught from the bible was nowhere near being accurate.

This is how understanding came about, but it didn't come easy.

 

[Apaquelypse]

JayRob, do you understand the whole dynamic of the resurrection of Jesus? Do you know that Jesus went to Hell to get all those who died at the hands of the law from the beginning of time up until then? That kinda mutes your point of how evil the "god", as you call Him, of the bible really is.
Almost as if to say He was soooooo hard in th beginning that nobody would pass his tests, and now He's chosen to grade everyone on a curve. Sure some will still figure out a way to fail but you cant blame that on God this time when its as complicated as "confessing" and "believing".

 

[JayRob]

JayRob, do you understand the whole dynamic of the resurrection of Jesus? Do you know that Jesus went to Hell to get all those who died at the hands of the law from the beginning of time up until then? That kinda mutes your point of how evil the "god", as you call Him, of the bible really is.
Almost as if to say He was soooooo hard in th beginning that nobody would pass his tests, and now He's chosen to grade everyone on a curve. Sure some will still figure out a way to fail but you cant blame that on God this time when its as complicated as "confessing" and "believing".

Where does it specifically say in the bible that the Jesus figure went to hell to retroactively rescue those Old Testament folks who never heard his name? Nowhere.

What about the billions today who die but never hear his name? Will they be given an unfair advantage by having to do nothing, while those who hear about him have to overcome? That's exactly what you're saying and it makes no sense.

What you just stated in so many words is that those who've never heard his name will be handed salvation on a silver platter without having to accept his name or even know about him. Now does that make any sense at all? Not to me.

 

[dacontinent]

Apaquelypse, don't fall for it. JayRob knows the passages. We have been over them before.

 

[Apaquelypse]

Where does it specifically say in the bible that the Jesus figure went to hell to retroactively rescue those Old Testament folks who never heard his name? Nowhere.

Notsomuch His Name but were captive to the law (which no man could keep by the way) but Ephesians4:8-10
What about the billions today who die but never hear his name? What makes you so sure that there are billions? What makes you think that there are folks alive and dying tody that havent heard His Name? Will they be given an unfair advantage by having to do nothing, while those who hear about him have to overcome? All anyone must do is Confess and Believe - that overcoming stuff is for the civil rights movement... That's exactly what you're saying and it makes no sense. Thats not what i said sir

What you just stated in so many words is that those who've never heard his name will be handed salvation on a silver platter without having to accept his name or even know about him. What i stated in so many words was that salvation was free to all who will accept Him. Those in the past had there chance after the grave, those since His death have there chance before the grave. Now does that make any sense at all? Not to me.

It Doesnt have to, just like the sophistication of brown cows eating green grass and making white milk, or the science behind red blood over black sins cleanses whiter than snow - but it is what it is

 

[Apaquelypse]

maybe thats the problem - too many passages and not enough Word

 

[JayRob]

Apaquelypse, don't fall for it. JayRob knows the passages. We have been over them before.

Fall for what? It would've been better for Apaquelypse if you would've posted those passages you claim I know. I would've gladly given him/her the same response I gave to you that you basically had no answer for.

 

[JayRob]

It Doesnt have to, just like the sophistication of brown cows eating green grass and making white milk, or the science behind red blood over black sins cleanses whiter than snow - but it is what it is

Ephesians 4:8-10 comes nowhere near answering the two simple questions I asked. Nowhere does it say that those who've never heard the name of the Jesus character would be given a "free pass" to salvation. As a matter of fact, it says just the opposite in John 14:6. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

The verse says no one can come to the father except through the Jesus character. Tell me Apaquelypse, how can a person go through him if they never knew his name in the first place?

 

[dacontinent]

Fall for what? It would've been better for Apaquelypse if you would've posted those passages you claim I know. I would've gladly given him/her the same response I gave to you that you basically had no answer for.

Just go ahead and enlighten Apaquelypse, since you already have the information.

 

[JayRob]

Just go ahead and enlighten Apaquelypse, since you already have the information.

No, I think you'd be the best candidate to show him the verses you claimed that I already know. Only you know which verses you were referring to, so enlighten him a bit by posting them.

 

[dacontinent]

No, I think you'd be the best candidate to show him the verses you claimed that I already know. Only you know which verses you were referring to, so enlighten him a bit by posting them.

Thanks for the compliment.

1 Peter 3:18-22

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison ; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.​

Supporting passages from Hebrews

Heb 11:13-16

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Heb 11:24-26

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.


Heb 11:32-12:2

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38(Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

Please remember that all of these were written to believers. It is quite understandable for unbelievers to disdain them.

 

[JayRob]

Thanks for the compliment.

Wasn't meant to be a compliment, but was meant for you to present the verses you claimed that I knew about. You were right. I already know about the verses you posted.

1 Peter 3:18-22

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison ; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Peter makes claim that Noah preached to folks "before the flood" to get them to repent, but scripture doesn't show this anywhere. As a matter of fact, it shows Noah getting drunk and his grandson sodomizing him. So, was Noah a drunk preacher?

Even if Noah did send a warning to those during his lifetime, what about the many thousands upon thousands who've never heard about this Jesus figure long after Noah's death? Do they get a free pass to heaven?

In addition to the above, the verses you posted still don't explain what will happen to the billions today and for the past hundreds of years who've never heard the name of the biblical Jesus.

Supporting passages from Hebrews

Heb 11:13-16
Heb 11:24-26
Heb 11:32-12:2
Please remember that all of these were written to believers. It is quite understandable for unbelievers to disdain them.​

Neither verse answers the question as to what will happen to the many millions who've never heard the name of this biblical Jesus. They only talk about the "faithful" who were promised blessings but never received them. Will the millions get a free pass or are they all doomed to eternal burning in hell?​

 

[dacontinent]

...Peter makes claim that Noah preached to folks "before the flood" to get them to repent, but scripture doesn't show this anywhere. As a matter of fact, it shows Noah getting drunk and his grandson sodomizing him. So, was Noah a drunk preacher?

Even if Noah did send a warning to those during his lifetime, what about the many thousands upon thousands who've never heard about this Jesus figure long after Noah's death? Do they get a free pass to heaven?

Sodomy by Canaan??!! There is nothing to suggest that Canaan was born before the flood - just the 4 couples in his family. You seem to be confusing issues here. The Scriptures show us an instace of Noah getting drunk AFTER the flood and Canaan not covering him; but nothing about sodomy. Your question was about those who died before Jesus was born and the passage that I gave you addressed that. Yet, you didn't mention the direct reference at all.

In addition to the above, the verses you posted still don't explain what will happen to the billions today and for the past hundreds of years who've never heard the name of the biblical Jesus.

You already know what the Scripture says will happens to the billions today.

Neither verse answers the question as to what will happen to the many millions who've never heard the name of this biblical Jesus. They only talk about the "faithful" who were promised blessings but never received them. Will the millions get a free pass or are they all doomed to eternal burning in hell?

No. The very God of the universe showed Himself in hell to those millions. According to the Scripture, they have had their opportunity.

The Bible is not a transcript of eternity. There is plenty of detail that is not there. Even though we are promised revelation when we shall be with Him in eternity, we are not promised that we will know EVERYTHING even then. Yes, I am okay with that.

 

[Tpop33]

Can yall ever stay on point?

To try and get this thread back, yes there is a major disconnect between homosexuality and religion. But mainly in the hypocrites in the church both male and female. And we all know some of your biggest homosexuals are in the Black church.

Just look at some preachers, (although most are skirt chasers) or Eddie Long, (at this point I refuse to use the religious title in front of his name), if he were truly innocent way pay 25mil?
Just look at the choir in the Black church and some of the directors, singers, musicians. Some of them are homosexuals and others have "tendencies" or ways about them.
Just look at the Catholic church and all of the priest who molested choir boys and fooled around with one another.
All this stuff you've seen in the news. And the Black Church are so homophobic I believe if it could it would send all homos to hell.
But here is my take on the whole situation. We, as far as the church is concerned, are so focused on what two men or women are doing and are quick to call it sin, but what about the unmarried man and woman who are sexing? What about the affairs that take place in the church, (some pertaining to the pastor too), what about all the lying, cheating, stealing, cliques, etc that takes place in the church that can fall under sin? Where is the concern for that? When a gay or les comes to the church who knows maybe they are there because they want God to help them, like the rest of the folks in church they want God to help/Save them, but guess what, if that's not the reason their there, then it is non of your concern. "Why try and cast the mote out of your brothers eye, lest ye forget the mote in your own" yes that is a big paraphrase, but I did it that way purposely. Focus on your own issues, and pray for them as a person, you know how Christians are so quick to quote songs vs scriptures, well " Be patient with me(them) God is not through with me(them) yet. Now the other side of this coin is that, they the gay and les, must understand that just because you are a member of said church, and folks are dealing with you on a personal level, does no mean you get the right ot come and flaunt your relationship in the church. If Joe and Sue are required to behave in a certain manner then so are Steve and Larry or Eve and Shelia. Also they cant get upset when asked to be married in the church and the church says no, because it still falls under a doctrine (the Bible as a whole) no matter how some may feel about that doctrine.
Now if you notice I did not speak on how some feel that Gays and Les are forcing others to be more accepting of them, that is more of a political and small talk discussion. If you feel that way in the church then you are more then welcome to leave that church and attend another, or attempt to force them out of the church, but be prepared for the backlash believers and non believers alike will turn against you.

 

[dacontinent]

^^^^^

If the folks on the church membership committee are smart, they have a membership application with sufficient wording to get the prospects signature stating that they understand that the status of their membership is validated in accrodance with the teaching of the Scriptures: meaning LGBT are unacceptable for MEMBERSHIP. Attendance is a different story. The church needs to be available/accessible to all non-disruptive prospects. The church has the ministry of reconciliation, to win folks to Christ.

 

[Kendrick]

I think Tpops brings up some really points about some of this stuff.

 

[Apaquelypse]

Well Jay, what questions does Ephesians 4:8-10 answer then? Cause from what i read, it furthermore explained what Jesus did when stayed in the "grave" for those three days.

I like that scripture you posted John 14:6....and in order for the Word of God to not be a lie, (Jesus) The Word went to the grave Himself to give the dead folk who had never heard of Him a chance to hear of who He was!!! So it is true that no man - dead or alive comes to the Father but through Him.

 

[Apaquelypse]

QUOTE=kendrick;1876169]I think Tpops brings up some really points about some of this stuff.[/QUOTE]

Whats up with that Ad mane? :no::shame::uhoh::slap::noidea:[

 

[JayRob]

Sodomy by Canaan??!! There is nothing to suggest that Canaan was born before the flood - just the 4 couples in his family. You seem to be confusing issues here. The Scriptures show us an instace of Noah getting drunk AFTER the flood and Canaan not covering him; but nothing about sodomy. Your question was about those who died before Jesus was born and the passage that I gave you addressed that. Yet, you didn't mention the direct reference at all.

So Noah became a sinner AFTER the flood? If he was a drunkard after the flood, it's highly likely that he was a drunkard BEFORE the flood as well. LOL!!

According to missing books of the bible, Noah was sodomized by Canaan. This is why Canaan's seed, whomever they're accused of being, was cursed by Noah.

You already know what the Scripture says will happens to the billions today.

No, please enlighten me. According to you, they're doomed to eternal burning and burning.

No. The very God of the universe showed Himself in hell to those millions. According to the Scripture, they have had their opportunity.

How can they be in hell when according to Revelation, they've not been judged yet?
Second, if they're already in hell, what's the purpose of the second resurrection and judgement for those who didn't make it in the first resurrection?

Thirdly, according to Ecclesiastes, if the human spirit is supposed to return to the god who gave it (after one dies), how can they already be in hell when their spirit is said to be with the biblical god?

Fourthly, if the Jesus character was supposedly in the grave only for three days and three nights (really a day and a half), the folks who were supposedly in hell were only given three days to get their act together while burning in fire?

The Bible is not a transcript of eternity. There is plenty of detail that is not there. Even though we are promised revelation when we shall be with Him in eternity, we are not promised that we will know EVERYTHING even then. Yes, I am okay with that.

It's obvious that you don't know everything, so please admit that. Let's not just make up stuff as one goes along because oftentimes it leads to biblical contradictions and statements that are contradictory such as the one above.

Nowhere does any of those verses say that those who came before the Jesus figure were already judged.

 

[JayRob]

Can yall ever stay on point?

You make your points and we'll make ours regardless of the subject being discussed.

To try and get this thread back, yes there is a major disconnect between homosexuality and religion. But mainly in the hypocrites in the church both male and female. And we all know some of your biggest homosexuals are in the Black church.

Just look at some preachers, (although most are skirt chasers) or Eddie Long, (at this point I refuse to use the religious title in front of his name), if he were truly innocent way pay 25mil?
Just look at the choir in the Black church and some of the directors, singers, musicians. Some of them are homosexuals and others have "tendencies" or ways about them.
Just look at the Catholic church and all of the priest who molested choir boys and fooled around with one another.
All this stuff you've seen in the news. And the Black Church are so homophobic I believe if it could it would send all homos to hell.
But here is my take on the whole situation. We, as far as the church is concerned, are so focused on what two men or women are doing and are quick to call it sin, but what about the unmarried man and woman who are sexing? What about the affairs that take place in the church, (some pertaining to the pastor too), what about all the lying, cheating, stealing, cliques, etc that takes place in the church that can fall under sin? Where is the concern for that? When a gay or les comes to the church who knows maybe they are there because they want God to help them, like the rest of the folks in church they want God to help/Save them, but guess what, if that's not the reason their there, then it is non of your concern. "Why try and cast the mote out of your brothers eye, lest ye forget the mote in your own" yes that is a big paraphrase, but I did it that way purposely. Focus on your own issues, and pray for them as a person, you know how Christians are so quick to quote songs vs scriptures, well " Be patient with me(them) God is not through with me(them) yet. Now the other side of this coin is that, they the gay and les, must understand that just because you are a member of said church, and folks are dealing with you on a personal level, does no mean you get the right ot come and flaunt your relationship in the church. If Joe and Sue are required to behave in a certain manner then so are Steve and Larry or Eve and Shelia. Also they cant get upset when asked to be married in the church and the church says no, because it still falls under a doctrine (the Bible as a whole) no matter how some may feel about that doctrine.
Now if you notice I did not speak on how some feel that Gays and Les are forcing others to be more accepting of them, that is more of a political and small talk discussion. If you feel that way in the church then you are more then welcome to leave that church and attend another, or attempt to force them out of the church, but be prepared for the backlash believers and non believers alike will turn against you.

In short, you went all the way around the world to say what? That a willing homosexual is already condemned to hell fire. If one is a willing homosexual, no matter if he/she's born that way, they're still condemned to hell. You didn't outright come out and say it, but seems that's what you meant.

It amazes me to no end that "educated" folks seem to be so limited in their thinking to actually believe that the Supreme Intelligence of our vast universes is concerned with where a man chooses to stick his genitals.
I'm almost sure that that's not the case.

 

[JayRob]

Well Jay, what questions does Ephesians 4:8-10 answer then? Cause from what i read, it furthermore explained what Jesus did when stayed in the "grave" for those three days.

If Jesus was fully conscious and preaching while he was in the grave, then he was never dead to begin with. How could he be in hell preaching when he was supposed to be in the grave dead? Another biblical contradiction? Hmmmm.

I like that scripture you posted John 14:6....and in order for the Word of God to not be a lie, (Jesus) The Word went to the grave Himself to give the dead folk who had never heard of Him a chance to hear of who He was!!! So it is true that no man - dead or alive comes to the Father but through Him.

Again I ask, how can there be folks already in hell when it says in Revelation that judgement would take place during the second resurrection?
How could they be in hell fire, when Ecclesiastes says their spirit returns to god?
How can Jesus be both dead and still alive to preach to folks in hell?

 

[dacontinent]

...So Noah became a sinner AFTER the flood? If he was a drunkard after the flood, it's highly likely that he was a drunkard BEFORE the flood as well. LOL!!

What? No references to missing books to support this??!! Just more vintage Book of JayRob.

According to missing books of the bible, Noah was sodomized by Canaan. This is why Canaan's seed, whomever they're accused of being, was cursed by Noah.

Go ahead and quote from the missing books. Show us what we are missing.

No, please enlighten me. According to you, they're doomed to eternal burning and burning.

Already discussed.

How can they be in hell when according to Revelation, they've not been judged yet?
Second, if they're already in hell, what's the purpose of the second resurrection and judgement for those who didn't make it in the first resurrection?

This is that part where you start to understand the difference between hell in the OT and in the NT. If you keep looking, it will come to you. You answered the latter question while asking it.

Thirdly, according to Ecclesiastes, if the human spirit is supposed to return to the god who gave it (after one dies), how can they already be in hell when their spirit is said to be with the biblical god?

Fourthly, if the Jesus character was supposedly in the grave only for three days and three nights (really a day and a half), the folks who were supposedly in hell were only given three days to get their act together while burning in fire?

Who said they were in fire at that time? JayRob did. Besides, how long would it take someone to decide to follow God after meeting Him face-to-face and offered to join Him for eternity? It would be less than 3 seconds let alone 3 days.

It's obvious that you don't know everything, so please admit that. Let's not just make up stuff as one goes along because oftentimes it leads to biblical contradictions and statements that are contradictory such as the one above.

Already admitted my incompleteness in many threads. Regarding the content of the books missing from the Bible ... just color me ignorant. There is enough IN the Word that I have not yet grasped than to have years to spend researching stuff that is not there. As for biblical contradictions, I have yet to find any.

Nowhere does any of those verses say that those who came before the Jesus figure were already judged.

Exactly.

Now what all of this has to do with the thread I do not know. I am agreeing with Tpop33.

 

[Tpop33]

willing[/B] homosexual is already condemned to hell fire. If one is a willing homosexual, no matter if he/she's born that way, they're still condemned to hell. You didn't outright come out and say it, but seems that's what you meant.

It amazes me to no end that "educated" folks seem to be so limited in their thinking to actually believe that the Supreme Intelligence of our vast universes is concerned with where a man chooses to stick his genitals.
I'm almost sure that that's not the case.

What amazes me, is your inability to read and comprehend simple analogies.
No where in my post did I decry that G/L are evil and going to hell. If you were able to comprehend and be the intelligent person that someone labeled you as, you would have understood that in my post I believe, CHRISTIANS WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT THIS ISSUE VS THE ISSUES OTHER ISSUES THAT ABOUND IN THE CHURCH THINGS THAT ARE REALLY TEARING APART OUR COMMUNITY. They detest G/L but accept adultery, fornication, thievery, and the like. I may not agree with a the G/L sexual preference, (which by the way stems not from religious beliefs, but from a nature, or natural selection view point) not that you really care.

And yes I mad my points, and the subject is Heterosexuality, religion and contraindication, but it ended up being about the same questions and issues you have with religion. (giving you and out here) And you are right and justified to have those questions and concerns; as I stated before all people should even Christians should ask questions, IN CONJUNCTION WITH THEIR FAITH!
You know if these thread in the Prayer Board could stay on topic and not become a referendum for you to debate, question, debase, or bash the finer points of religion then maybe, just maybe more people would contribute. I will give you one credit though and that is at least you question all religion.