Has the MEAC surpassed the SWAC in quality.....

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Has the MEAC surpassed the SWAC in the quality of it's athletic teams and academic programs?

To gain a valid assessment of the question and answer it correctly, do you not have qualify your questions and objectively define that the SWAC was at one time ahead or at least even with the MEAC in its athletics teams and/or its academic programs?

Can an assessment be made objectively by providing one or two subjective examples this year that MEAC?s athletic teams and/or academic programs have surpassed the entire SWAC in the quality of its athletic teams and academic programs?

Especially without providing evidence in those same sports of what the SWAC has or has not done over said period of time to be significant amount of evidence to support the assertion that the entire MEAC has surpassed the entire SWAC in the quality of its athletic teams and academic programs.

Where is the comparision analysis being made?

Is it time to face reality?

What reality do you speak of?

 

[pbla]

It's up and down year to year. Just like in Basketball, a couple of years the SEC had more teams in the Final Four than other conferences; another year it's the ACC. You really can't make any comparisons because good talent is not absolute in any conference every year.

 

[Journalist]

Now...I guess if you look at the academic side..it shole is easier to get stuff when you don't hafta really answer to no state authorities (Hampton, Howard)..

I don't know about admission standards in the other MEAC states either...

But I understand this argument is about athletically...
FAMU football is in shambles, I think PV can be Deleware State in football...basketball I can give it to the MEAC (but the MEAC's really a basketball conference in my opinion)

Baseball: Texas Southern was partly responsible for No. 1 Rice's early exit last year and Southern had the NATION's top player two years ago. I saw Bethune-Cookman get worked by Florida State in the NCAAs...(BTW...wins against majors during the middle of the week aren't as good as wins in the NCAAs, when you know you're gonna get their No. 1 starter)..

I guess this discussion is more about perception rather than cold, hard facts...Naturally, as a SWAC alum, I'm going to vouch for the SWAC while folks from the MEAC would vouch for a MEAC school...

There's no empirical way to determine it...unless all the schools were in one league and that would determine whose better...

 

[jag4life]

Academically the answer is even easier then athletically. The answer is clearly yes. Without going into detail I'll just state a few tid bits...

* The MEAC offers more BS/BAs, more Graduate, more Professional, and more Doctoral programs then the SWAC.

* The MEAC schools bring in more research money then the SWAC.

* The MEAC has more national achievement scholars (best African American students based on the PSAT) then the SWAC.

* The combined endowment of the MEAC schools are higher then that of the SWAC.

* The MEAC has fewer open admission schools then does the SWAC.

* In the most recent BE rankings of the best colleges for African Americans three MEAC schools made the top ten (Hampton, Howard, and FAMU) while no SWAC schools did.

Remember, I didn't mention any particular school's accomplishments (except the BE rankings). I just took each conference as a whole. Each conference has its stand out schools academically, but from top to bottom the MEAC is better.

There are no private schools in the SWAC. Most of that "endowment" argument is boosted by Howard's huge endowment, so you can throw that one out.

Regarding the BE rankings, those are not scientific...they are based off surveys from the public and students at those schools. There are schools with less than 10% AA enrollment listed in the top 10 of the BE rankings...that invalidates the whole list in my opinion.

Open admissions (or admission standards)...that says nothing about the quality of the education AT the schools. It only says that those schools give chances to the less fortunate of our communitites.

 

[Panther88]

There are no private schools in the SWAC. Most of that "endowment" argument is boosted by Howard's huge endowment, so you can throw that one out.

Regarding the BE rankings, those are not scientific...they are based off surveys from the public and students at those schools. There are schools with less than 10% AA enrollment listed in the top 10 of the BE rankings...that invalidates the whole list in my opinion.

Open admissions (or admission standards)...that says nothing about the quality of the education AT the schools. It only says that those schools give chances to the less fortunate of our communitites.

Thank you j4l. And you're indeed correct, if Howard's huge endowment and historical significance wasn't in that conference, this argument would be totally moot. :tup:

 

[bigtyme2]

Don't forget Hampton they are private and have a very large endowment maybe even larger than Howard's.

 

[Panther88]

Bamasnake's exhibit is very compelling. Will be interesting to see if a SWACer can systematically debunk each of the points in that objective assessment. pretty good gutt check for the SWAC this question is. where's my buttered popcorn and coke?

That list that bamasnake compiled was good but references the past. How much "past" should the SWAC refer to? I can vividly recall 3 top 20 I-AA teams involving SWAC teams during the 90s (SU, GSU, JSU). See what I mean (SU was ranked #2 @ that time I think)? As for academia, lol quantify it first before attempting to rank/compare.

 

[Panther88]

Don't forget Hampton they are private and have a very large endowment maybe even larger than Howard's.

I think Howard's is the largest if memory serves correct. I could be wrong but I think HU's is much larger than HI. Remember, HU is federally funded by congress etc.... so....

 

[Get Ready]

Not only is the MEAC better, the damn CIAA is better than us.
Dont fool yourself.

 

[northern tiger]

It's up and down year to year. Just like in Basketball, a couple of years the SEC had more teams in the Final Four than other conferences; another year it's the ACC. You really can't make any comparisons because good talent is not absolute in any conference every year.

We have have been in the B@llSH@TIN' AZZ play in game since it's been inacted. A MEAC school has beatin'n a #2 seed recently. That's enough evidence for me in basketball. The SWAC needs a a public relations overhaul in order to progress in athletics competition wise. I swear the teams were better back in the late 80's compared to now. Maybe that's just me. The mid majors conferences (which kinda includes us) have become more competitive over the past few years in football and basketball. What happened to our conference. We are being left behind like a mug LIKE IT OR NOT!!!!!

 

[bamaSNAKE]

I took the question to mean now, not over the entire history of the two conferences. If the starter of the thread was speaking in terms of the entire history then it?s likely a run away for the SWAC in athletics. I was taking the question as right now in time, which conference is over all better then the other. I made my opinion known and I thought I gave a good list of reasons why. I also didn?t post all the accomplishments I could have to back up my opinion since I can only remember, or find so much on the net. Notice, nowhere in my first post did I say I think this (MEAC) team can beat this (SWAC) team or anything like that as some others have installed in their rebuttals. That?s completely biased and unfactual. I just laid out some facts, results, and rankings as I knew them. Let them speak for themselves. If someone from the SWAC could lay out a list of SWAC facts, results, and rankings for this or even last season that counter mine then my argument would be shot.

BTW, I just now found RPI conference data for baseball. No matter how hard I looked, I couldn?t find them last night. As I thought, this is a sport where the SWAC continues to out do the MEAC. The SWAC is 27 and the MEAC is 30. This is out of 31 conferences. Sadly, BCC is still the only MEAC school to even half way seriously invest in the sport.

In Softball the MEAC has continued to improve behind leading BCC and FAMU who have both beaten top 25 teams this season already. Currently the MEAC ranks 26 and the SWAC ranks 31. This is out of 31 conferences.

In Volleyball it?s clearly the MEAC.

Based on the RPI data I was able to find, below is the conference that ranks higher in each sport.

Football????????MEAC
Men?s Basketball????.MEAC
Women?s Basketball???MEAC
Baseball????????SWAC
Softball????????.MEAC
Volleyball??????.?MEAC

Again, I?m talking about the hear and now, not the then and way back then.

Academics

The answer for academics side of the question would remain the same, even if covering the entire history of the two conferences. Excuses for some schools being privet don?t muster with me because excuses are tools of the common school. If the fact that the privet schools have advantages when it comes to increasing their academic reputation then why doesn?t the SWAC try to bring one into its fold? I?m asking the question honestly. Has there ever been discussion of adding a school, more so because of what it can do for the conference academically rather then athletically (at least at the start)?

All of the best academic conferences have a mixture of strong public and privet schools.

SEC has Vandy
ACC has Duke, Miami, and Boston College
Big 10 has Northwestern
Pac 10 has Stanford

The list goes on and on through the list of conferences in America. I?m sure there?s more but because of my familiarity with it, the SWAC is the only conference I can think of that doesn?t have at least one academically strong privet institution.

Also, keep in mind, FAMU isn?t privet.

Furthermore, keep in mind I wasn?t saying any school in the SWAC is necessarily bad in academics. Matter of fact I know enough good things about two SWAC schools (AAMU and JSU) to believe they?d be good academic fits in the MEAC. I was speaking from top to bottom and I laid out some facts, results, and rankings to back up my opinion. If someone from the SWAC could lay out a list of SWAC academic facts, results, and rankings that counter mine then my argument may be shot.

Endowments:

Yes, it?s true that both Hampton and Howard have large endowments. But even without them, based on the information I?ve gotten from individuals in higher ed, even with the lost of one of them the MEAC?s endowment total would still greatly outnumber the SWAC?s. FAMU?s endowment is still the highest among all public HBCU?s. This, despite the school (to my knowledge) not raising any new endowment money under the 2 ? wasted leadership of the :uzi: past president. The endowment was still able to grow thanks to the interest and earnings profit that it decided to not spend but rather add to itself :tup:.

There was to be a capital campaign that would have, among other things, taken the overall endowment to over the $200 million mark but with the change in leadership that has been put on hold. My hope is that it will launch by the end of next year though.

In this era of republicanism where states are increasingly decreasing the amount of aid they give to their schools it is becoming more and more important for schools to have significant endowments to help ensure its future. Just my thinking.

 

[jag4life]

I FAMU?s endowment is still the highest among all public HBCU?s.

Really? Why does the state need to bail FAMU out finacially, then?

Has there ever been discussion of adding a school, more so because of what it can do for the conference academically rather then athletically (at least at the start)?

This is an athletic conference...there is no such thing as an "academic" conference...so adding a school for academic "help" is moot.

 

[northern tiger]

My fault, FAMU was in the play in game last year. But you all know my point.

 

[GSUperTiger]

Arguably for the first time in its history, the MEAC has surpassed the SWAC as whole in football. The trend ahs been long realized in basketball.

The edge is not big, but I would slight the advantage to the MEAC. Historically, the SWAC has better athletes, but the sideline presence hinders wins in the SWAC. The SWAC will regain its edge because there are better athletes. Good talent can sometimes overcome deficiences on the sideline.

 

[Storm96]

FAMU?s endowment is still the highest among all public HBCU?s. This, despite the school (to my knowledge) not raising any new endowment money under the 2 ? wasted leadership of the :uzi: past president. The endowment was still able to grow thanks to the interest and earnings profit that it decided to not spend but rather add to itself :tup:.

Just curious, what is FAMU's current endowment?

 

[C-LeB28]

Just curious, what is FAMU's current endowment?

According to the book "I'll Find a Way or Make One: A Tribute to Historically Black Colleges and Universities" written by Juan Williams and Dwayne Ashley copyrighted 2004, FAMU's current endowment is $65M.

 

[bamaSNAKE]

Really? Why does the state need to bail FAMU out finacially, then?

Hhhhmmmmmm, hints of smack but I?ll give the benefit of the doubt.

FAMU?s president has never asked for a ?bail out?. She has said if she thought it was NEEDED she wouldn?t hesitate to add it to our legislative request but she feels the university can take care of itself without that.

The words ?bail out? surfaced from two legislators, a state senator who?s a FAMU alum and a house member who is a FSU alum, both black also. They did this on their own, never even consulting the president to see if this was something she thought the university needed. Of course the press ran with this, which completely caught the president/university off guard.

If the University was in such dire straights as its immediate future being in doubt, which it isn?t, endowment funds could be used for the purpose of keeping that from happening. But the university isn?t in that type of shape, so the endowment funds can not be touched for purposes not defined by the benefactor.

As with most university endowments FAMU?s is highly restricted. This means when a donor gives say $10 million, he/she specifies where the interest/earnings can be used (i.e., scholarships, capital improvements, faculty enhancement, etc.) Few people give their endowment contributions in unrestrictive capacities where the university could use the interest/earnings to do what it sees fit. I guess it?s because people don?t trust universities to spend it as they see fit. I believe upwards of 90% of FAMU?s endowment is restricted. Anyway, there are provisions where a university can spend the interest and/or principal of an endowment, even for a purpose not specified by the benefactor when the university is in extreme dire straights but FAMU, despite how bad the media has painted it of late, is very very far from there.

This is an athletic conference...there is no such thing as an "academic" conference...so adding a school for academic "help" is moot.

Is that seriously your answer? If the main goal of the conferences affiliation is to succeed on the field of competition they why does the conference rank where it does in sport after sport ? at or near the absolute bottom? This is not smack at all.

I see nothing wrong with adding a school that may not have the strongest athletic reputation but has a dynamic academic resume. With time and resources its athletic fortune can change once in the conference. A school that comes to my mind that would be a great addition both academically and athletically is Tuskegee.

Because where the conference may be dropping a bit athletically with the addition (for the time being also), they could take a significant leap in its academic prestige as a conference.

I?d love to some day see one of the black conferences academic reputations is so good that a person can just mention the conference and not the particular school and people know he/she got an outstanding education. Like the way people can just say they went to an Ivy League, Big 10, Pac 10, or ACC school. The schools in those conferences are dynamic from top to bottom. I?m not saying we have to match them across the board, but I think one day we can have at least one of the black conferences get that same moniker when an alum can say he/she went to a MEAC, SWAC, CIAA, or SIAC School and people automatically know they got an outstanding education.

 

[jag4life]

You don't add a weak athletic school to a conference. That would be just plain dumb. Anyway...who is there to add anyway? Is Tuskegee still (or ever was) strong academically? That's the only private school I could see in the SWAC.

 

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Academically the answer is even easier then athletically. The answer is clearly yes. Without going into detail I'll just state a few tid bits...

Based on what source or you providing to make this assessment. I believe you are making many assumptions. I have yet to view any numbers you have referenced, nor any sources that you reference.

* The MEAC offers more BS/BAs, more Graduate, more Professional, and more Doctoral programs then the SWAC.

Source? How many BS/BA's, graduate, professional, and Doctoral programs do the MEAC?s schools offer? How many BS/BA's, graduate, professional, and Doctoral programs do the SWAC?s schools offer? Please site the source you reference to obtain this information and make this assessment.

* The MEAC schools bring in more research money then the SWAC.

Source? How much research money are the MEAC?s schools bringing in? How much research money are the SWAC?s schools bringing in? How much more research money does the MEAC bring in compared to the SWAC? Please site the source you reference to obtain this information and make this assessment.

* The MEAC has more national achievement scholars (best African American students based on the PSAT) then the SWAC.

How many national achievement scholars do the MEAC have? How many national achievement scholars do the SWAC have? How many more national achievement scholars do the MEAC have compared to the SWAC? Please site the source you reference to obtain this information and make this assessment.

* The combined endowment of the MEAC schools are higher then that of the SWAC.

What is the combined endowment of the MEAC schools? What is the combined endowment of the SWAC schools? Please site the source you reference to obtain this information and make this assessment.

* The MEAC has fewer open admission schools then does the SWAC.

How many schools in the MEAC have open admission? How many schools in the SWAC have open admission? Please site the source you reference to obtain this information and make this assessment.

* In the most recent BE rankings of the best colleges for African Americans three MEAC schools made the top ten (Hampton, Howard, and FAMU) while no SWAC schools did.

Good point. I appreciate the reference of a source.

Remember, I didn't mention any particular school's accomplishments (except the BE rankings). I just took each conference as a whole. Each conference has its stand out schools academically, but from top to bottom the MEAC is better.

Are you basing this assessment on the BE rankings or are you basing this on the other assessments you made above that lack data and sources to support them? Are you passing this information and assessments as facts or just a hypothesis?

Just curious!!

 

[JROCK]

:lol:

 

[bluedog]

We have have been in the B@llSH@TIN' AZZ play in game since it's been inacted.

That isn't true. It's ok to hate yourself but keep the rest of the conference out of it.

 

[Storm96]

According to the book "I'll Find a Way or Make One: A Tribute to Historically Black Colleges and Universities" written by Juan Williams and Dwayne Ashley copyrighted 2004, FAMU's current endowment is $65M.

Thanks. I thought it would be higher.

 

[Paul Dolemite Taylor]

Arguably for the first time in its history, the MEAC has surpassed the SWAC as whole in football. The trend ahs been long realized in basketball.

The edge is not big, but I would slight the advantage to the MEAC. Historically, the SWAC has better athletes, but the sideline presence hinders wins in the SWAC. The SWAC will regain its edge because there are better athletes. Good talent can sometimes overcome deficiences on the sideline.

COSIGN !!!!!!

 

[northern tiger]

That isn't true. It's ok to hate yourself but keep the rest of the conference out of it.

I later said that it was not true. I don't hate the conference, I hate that it's not progressive. In fact, our talent has regressed. We need to deal with these defficiencies so our teams can be competitive outside the conference.

 

[GSUperTiger]

I see nothing wrong with adding a school that may not have the strongest athletic reputation but has a dynamic academic resume. With time and resources its athletic fortune can change once in the conference. A school that comes to my mind that would be a great addition both academically and athletically is Tuskegee.

Because where the conference may be dropping a bit athletically with the addition (for the time being also), they could take a significant leap in its academic prestige as a conference.

I?d love to some day see one of the black conferences academic reputations is so good that a person can just mention the conference and not the particular school and people know he/she got an outstanding education. Like the way people can just say they went to an Ivy League, Big 10, Pac 10, or ACC school. The schools in those conferences are dynamic from top to bottom. I?m not saying we have to match them across the board, but I think one day we can have at least one of the black conferences get that same moniker when an alum can say he/she went to a MEAC, SWAC, CIAA, or SIAC School and people automatically know they got an outstanding education.

This is not realistic, but I understood your point of the perception conferences like the Big 10 and ACC garners from an academic standpoint. For expansion in present day college athletics, a school must exhibit both (athletic and academic prowess) to enter the ACC. Conferences sole purpose is athletics, but some are implicitly seen as academic conferences too (only the Big 10, ACC, and Ivy come to mind -- maybe Patriot and Pac-10 also). The SEC is never mentioned in the same sentence as the ACC from an academic perspective. When the ACC sought expansion, Boston College's academic standing was a huge incentive.

In the SWAC (expansion), a school's academic standpoint is immaterial because the persona of the conference is more Deep South oriented (like the SEC). Also, I would be shocked if the Pac-10 expands. There is not a Notre Dame available (like for the Big 10), and no school meets the academic standards of a Cal, Stanford, UW, SC, or UCLA etc. There is a different mindset outside the South.