Great White Throne of Judgement
- Thread starter Dr H..
- Start date
JSU Chad
New Member
1 Cor 13.10
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
To define "that which is perfect" as used in 1 Corinthians 13.10.
Significance
1 Corinthians 13.10 is sometimes cited as evidence that God is no longer bestowing certain spiritual gifts.
Word study
In everyday language, "perfect" means "without flaw."
"Perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13.10 translates the Greek word teleios.
Based on quoted references given below, the Greek word teleios carries several additional meanings including: complete, mature, full, fulfilled, having reached the end.
Therefore, we must examine the context of 1 Corinthians 13.10 so as to determine the meaning of teleios in this particular usage.
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The context of 1 Corinthians 13.10
...But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (1 Cor 13.8-12, NKJV)
Current ==> Changed
13.9a For we know in part 13.10a But when that which is perfect (teleios) has come, Partial ==> Complete
13.9b and we prophesy in part. 13.10a But when that which is perfect (teleios) has come, Partial ==> Complete
13.10b then that which is in part will be done away. 13.10a But when that which is perfect (teleios) has come, Partial ==> Complete
13.11a When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; 13.11b but when I became a man, I put away childish things. Childhood ==> Adulthood
13.12a For now we see in a mirror, dimly, 13.12b but then face to face. Indirect, dim view ==> Full view
13.12c Now I know in part, 13.12d but then I shall know just as I also am known [inferred: known by God] Partial ==>Complete
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First Conclusion
In 1 Corinthians 10.13, "that which is perfect" means "that which is complete and mature."
Second Conclusion
"That which is perfect" will arrive when Christians...
Have full knowledge of God.
No longer need prophecy to have direct knowledge of God's will and purpose.
Attain full spiritual maturity.
See God face-to-face.
Know God up close and personal.
Summary Conclusion
"That which is perfect" will arrive when Lord Jesus comes in the clouds to rapture His church into the presence of God.
Significance of the conclusions
Taken from http://www.biblebell.org/
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
To define "that which is perfect" as used in 1 Corinthians 13.10.
Significance
1 Corinthians 13.10 is sometimes cited as evidence that God is no longer bestowing certain spiritual gifts.
Word study
In everyday language, "perfect" means "without flaw."
"Perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13.10 translates the Greek word teleios.
Based on quoted references given below, the Greek word teleios carries several additional meanings including: complete, mature, full, fulfilled, having reached the end.
Therefore, we must examine the context of 1 Corinthians 13.10 so as to determine the meaning of teleios in this particular usage.
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The context of 1 Corinthians 13.10
...But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (1 Cor 13.8-12, NKJV)
Current ==> Changed
13.9a For we know in part 13.10a But when that which is perfect (teleios) has come, Partial ==> Complete
13.9b and we prophesy in part. 13.10a But when that which is perfect (teleios) has come, Partial ==> Complete
13.10b then that which is in part will be done away. 13.10a But when that which is perfect (teleios) has come, Partial ==> Complete
13.11a When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; 13.11b but when I became a man, I put away childish things. Childhood ==> Adulthood
13.12a For now we see in a mirror, dimly, 13.12b but then face to face. Indirect, dim view ==> Full view
13.12c Now I know in part, 13.12d but then I shall know just as I also am known [inferred: known by God] Partial ==>Complete
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First Conclusion
In 1 Corinthians 10.13, "that which is perfect" means "that which is complete and mature."
Second Conclusion
"That which is perfect" will arrive when Christians...
Have full knowledge of God.
No longer need prophecy to have direct knowledge of God's will and purpose.
Attain full spiritual maturity.
See God face-to-face.
Know God up close and personal.
Summary Conclusion
"That which is perfect" will arrive when Lord Jesus comes in the clouds to rapture His church into the presence of God.
Significance of the conclusions
- First Corinthians 13.8-10 says that the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge will fail/cease/vanish "when that which is perfect is come."
- Per the above conclusions, "perfect" will occur at the Rapture of the Church.
- The SOLE point of the above analysis is that 1 Corinthians 13.10 is NOT a proof text for saying that God is no longer bestowing the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge.
- The preceding analysis does NOT in any way answer the question of whether God is (or is not) presently bestowing these particular gifts.
- The only thing we know for certain is that the Holy Spirit definitely does give Spiritual gifts of HIS selection to Christians of HIS choice, according to HIS will (1 Cor 12.4-11).
- God has perfect knowledge of which gifts He is (and is not) now bestowing, and on whom He is presently bestowing them. We do not.
Taken from http://www.biblebell.org/
Dr H..
Active Member
Jewish Christians
Yes, I am serious - the roots of Christanity is from Judiasm. Study the Book of Hebrews, they were "Christians" that left Judiasm and was trying to revert back to Judiasm.
Yes, I have studied The Day of The Lord.
I only mentiond a few things that will happen in the "twinkling of an eye"
Yes, I am serious - the roots of Christanity is from Judiasm. Study the Book of Hebrews, they were "Christians" that left Judiasm and was trying to revert back to Judiasm.
Yes, I have studied The Day of The Lord.
I only mentiond a few things that will happen in the "twinkling of an eye"
JSU Chad
New Member
I said at that time. Jewish Christian at that time, sir. But, I am sure you understood. :tup: And they were known as followers of the way. Was not coined Christian until much later in Alexandria Eygpt. Plus, most followers were Jews in the beginning. But the mystery was that "the wild olive tree" would be grafted in also. Peter to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. The wild olive tree is the Gentiles.
And I am also sure you know why I asked you if you were serious. Com'on Doc.
And I am also sure you know why I asked you if you were serious. Com'on Doc.
Dr H..
Active Member
So you have taken information from someone else opinion.
Why not do your own word study and draw your own conclusion. However, we are saying the samething about the definition for the word perfect. But, going back to the scripture please show me where Christ is introduced into the scripture. His name or any refrence to Him is not in 13, therfore, gramatically "Perfect" cannot be talking about him.
Why not do your own word study and draw your own conclusion. However, we are saying the samething about the definition for the word perfect. But, going back to the scripture please show me where Christ is introduced into the scripture. His name or any refrence to Him is not in 13, therfore, gramatically "Perfect" cannot be talking about him.
JSU Chad
New Member
Say what you will but just answer the questions that I have presented.
The opinion is mine. I just did not feel like trying to type all of it. So, I posted what was inline with what I have been stating. But, that is truly beside the point and a clear diversion.
That which is perfect is speaking of the end of the age, sir. You have yet to give me proof or even correctly address all that I have written. You are confusing me with what others have written.
The opinion is mine. I just did not feel like trying to type all of it. So, I posted what was inline with what I have been stating. But, that is truly beside the point and a clear diversion.
That which is perfect is speaking of the end of the age, sir. You have yet to give me proof or even correctly address all that I have written. You are confusing me with what others have written.
Chad, I feel you....I am serious. Dr.H and Killer Bees don't know. God will give the increase. I have been trying to tell these people on this board the truth, and only 8 people got saved by bible standards. 4 of the 8 even came to Jackson and visited my church and personaly thanked me for opening up their eyes. I am sorry. Dr. H has made me loose a little faith. I don't realy believe that some of these people will ever change. You can show as much scripture as you want to. I hope that God will use you to open more minds. You see chad, the different between the people I got saved and people like Dr.H and Killer bees is that, the people who accepted the truth, are people who were actually reading and saw that they were wrong and accepted what they read because it was true. Other people will not read, or will read it and sware it means something other than what was read, because they have a pre conceived notion of what they think the truth is and it's actually lies that were taught to them and they just acepted it. Holla at you latter. I am about to go. I will be back later.
Dr H..
Active Member
"Was not coined Christian until much later in Alexandria Eygpt"
The only time Egypt is mention in the NT, is when it is referring back to the OT and when Joseph departed for Egypt.
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:26
Dwayne & Chad
You can twist and turn the definition of the word "Perfect" but, you cannot remove it from the context of the scripture.
This topic was avout the Great White Throne, some how it was changed to a topic that was already being discussed on another thread.
Chad & Dwayne, please show how Christ is introduced into 13. The entire Chapter is about Gifts and has nothing to do with Christ. If you remember in basic English, you has a paragraph and under the paragraph you had your Topic and subtopics - please outline 13 to show where Christ is the topic or sub-topic.
Have either of you ever studied the bible in it's original language? I am sorry, but neither of you do not understand context, homiletics, hermeneutics
Although the scripture was broken down to it's basic form, you still insist on beleiving that "perfect" refers to Christ.
"When the perfect is come," he used the neuter gender. Christ is not neuter gender, but masculine, only objects ?books, cars, houses, paper? are neuter, meaning neither male nor female
Please, explain why the word "perfect" is neuter and not masculine? The Greek, English, French, & other languages have grammatical gender, & natural gender words. Again, that is not the case in 13:10.
Where is the pronoun "He" that would make reference to Christ.
Where is the antecedent "He"? An antecedent is a word to which a pronoun refers. David is the antecedent of his in the following sentence: David took his ball to the gym. His is a pronoun which refers to the antecedent, David.
In Matthew 10:20 Spirit is the antecedent of which: For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your heavenly Father which speaks in you. Since which refers to Spirit, the word Spirit is called the antecedent of which.
In 10:33, Christ would have been the antecedent of "which" is "perfect" again this is not the case because Christ or He is not part of the setence.
The Gramattical Facts Show, when the gramatttical information is carefully studied , the only conclusion that can be obtained is that language does not lie and it crosses all color barriers and religious beliefs and practices.
Books to add to your study habits
Nathan Han's A Parsing Guide to the Greek New Testament,
Ray Summers' Essentials of New Testament Greek, and Dana and Mantey's A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament.
A.T. Robertson's monumental work, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research
Chad, trust me you do not want to get into a discussion concerning the "Day of The Lord" with me. I am talking about from Genesis to Revelation. I am not trying to be arrogant, but you are out not indept as you think you are - I know the Greek and Hebrew Language. If you desire to debate "The Day of The Lord" You better, know your Greek, to include diphthongs, noun, verbs, double negatives, definite & indefinite articles, subject, predicates, lexical form, cases, numbers, gender's, demostrative & relative pronouns, attributive & substantival adj, vocative, word order, tenses 'past simple; past progressive' past perfect, mood, stems, etc, etc,
However, I do not run from a good debate.
The only time Egypt is mention in the NT, is when it is referring back to the OT and when Joseph departed for Egypt.
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:26
Dwayne & Chad
You can twist and turn the definition of the word "Perfect" but, you cannot remove it from the context of the scripture.
This topic was avout the Great White Throne, some how it was changed to a topic that was already being discussed on another thread.
Chad & Dwayne, please show how Christ is introduced into 13. The entire Chapter is about Gifts and has nothing to do with Christ. If you remember in basic English, you has a paragraph and under the paragraph you had your Topic and subtopics - please outline 13 to show where Christ is the topic or sub-topic.
Have either of you ever studied the bible in it's original language? I am sorry, but neither of you do not understand context, homiletics, hermeneutics
Although the scripture was broken down to it's basic form, you still insist on beleiving that "perfect" refers to Christ.
"When the perfect is come," he used the neuter gender. Christ is not neuter gender, but masculine, only objects ?books, cars, houses, paper? are neuter, meaning neither male nor female
Please, explain why the word "perfect" is neuter and not masculine? The Greek, English, French, & other languages have grammatical gender, & natural gender words. Again, that is not the case in 13:10.
Where is the pronoun "He" that would make reference to Christ.
Where is the antecedent "He"? An antecedent is a word to which a pronoun refers. David is the antecedent of his in the following sentence: David took his ball to the gym. His is a pronoun which refers to the antecedent, David.
In Matthew 10:20 Spirit is the antecedent of which: For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your heavenly Father which speaks in you. Since which refers to Spirit, the word Spirit is called the antecedent of which.
In 10:33, Christ would have been the antecedent of "which" is "perfect" again this is not the case because Christ or He is not part of the setence.
The Gramattical Facts Show, when the gramatttical information is carefully studied , the only conclusion that can be obtained is that language does not lie and it crosses all color barriers and religious beliefs and practices.
Books to add to your study habits
Nathan Han's A Parsing Guide to the Greek New Testament,
Ray Summers' Essentials of New Testament Greek, and Dana and Mantey's A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament.
A.T. Robertson's monumental work, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research
Chad, trust me you do not want to get into a discussion concerning the "Day of The Lord" with me. I am talking about from Genesis to Revelation. I am not trying to be arrogant, but you are out not indept as you think you are - I know the Greek and Hebrew Language. If you desire to debate "The Day of The Lord" You better, know your Greek, to include diphthongs, noun, verbs, double negatives, definite & indefinite articles, subject, predicates, lexical form, cases, numbers, gender's, demostrative & relative pronouns, attributive & substantival adj, vocative, word order, tenses 'past simple; past progressive' past perfect, mood, stems, etc, etc,
However, I do not run from a good debate.
JSU Chad
New Member
Dr H,
I stand corrected. I was thinking of something else when I wrote Alexandria. Please forgive me. :shh: However, addressing the Greek and Hebrew. Sir, you don't know me or what I know. The same as I don't know you. Because looking on the surface of the comments you have posted I would think that you really did not know what you claimed to know. Just being honest. But hey, I don't know what I am talking about either. As a matter of fact all I know is Christ and Him crucified. And on that note I will leave you with your argument and your belief. But, I must say, that proof-texting through the scriptures instead of taking them for face value is detrimental to your growth in Christ. Furthermore, a debate would require each person to address all questions that are presented.
Brother Chad
Due to divisions in the body of Christ, followers of Christ have given themselves names which are not biblical, but are of men and their ways. The early church was warned not have divisions. This warning was for those who were beginning to follow men rather than Christ. Paul asked them whose name they were baptized into (1 Corinthians 1:10-13). Today men have done the same thing. Some follow men and some follow doctrines and wear the name of who or what they believe in and follow. We are to follow Christ and wear the name "Christian."
I stand corrected. I was thinking of something else when I wrote Alexandria. Please forgive me. :shh: However, addressing the Greek and Hebrew. Sir, you don't know me or what I know. The same as I don't know you. Because looking on the surface of the comments you have posted I would think that you really did not know what you claimed to know. Just being honest. But hey, I don't know what I am talking about either. As a matter of fact all I know is Christ and Him crucified. And on that note I will leave you with your argument and your belief. But, I must say, that proof-texting through the scriptures instead of taking them for face value is detrimental to your growth in Christ. Furthermore, a debate would require each person to address all questions that are presented.
Brother Chad
Due to divisions in the body of Christ, followers of Christ have given themselves names which are not biblical, but are of men and their ways. The early church was warned not have divisions. This warning was for those who were beginning to follow men rather than Christ. Paul asked them whose name they were baptized into (1 Corinthians 1:10-13). Today men have done the same thing. Some follow men and some follow doctrines and wear the name of who or what they believe in and follow. We are to follow Christ and wear the name "Christian."
Dr H..
Active Member
No problem
"that proof-texting through the scriptures instead of taking them for face value is detrimental to your growth in Christ."
I agree and that is why I study the using the original language. The KJV and other are not translations they are transliterations. Because, there are words and gramattical structures used in the original languages that does not have an "English" Equivalent.
"that proof-texting through the scriptures instead of taking them for face value is detrimental to your growth in Christ."
I agree and that is why I study the using the original language. The KJV and other are not translations they are transliterations. Because, there are words and gramattical structures used in the original languages that does not have an "English" Equivalent.
Dr H..
Active Member
That is right, "proof-texting" is dangerous and can give an individual a false sense of salvation. That's why I enjoy digging into the depths of the Gospel of Christ and all it has to offer me. Yes, I want to know about every doctrine in the word. Yes, I want it all, all God have to offer me. I want to know about justification, sanctification, glorification, regeneration, redemption, imputation, adoption, supplication, reconciliation, propitiation and origination. I want to know the difference between OT & NT Salvation.
I want to know the difference between Customs and Doctrine. I want to know why; Jesus saved one thief and not the other. Yep, I wan to know all about God, Christ and The Holy Spirit. I know I cannot get that by ?proof ? texting or surface reading the scriptures. That?s why, I love Dr. Luke, he ?autopsy? examine [examinare, meaning, ?to weigh accurately? the inner workings of the word.
So what is wrong, with my passion to know the in-depthness of the gospel?
I want to know the difference between Customs and Doctrine. I want to know why; Jesus saved one thief and not the other. Yep, I wan to know all about God, Christ and The Holy Spirit. I know I cannot get that by ?proof ? texting or surface reading the scriptures. That?s why, I love Dr. Luke, he ?autopsy? examine [examinare, meaning, ?to weigh accurately? the inner workings of the word.
So what is wrong, with my passion to know the in-depthness of the gospel?
