Church Bans Minister for denying membership to homosexual
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BLAQUE PRINCE
Fug <insert your school here>!
Fortitude said:
Honestly that seems like what the Methodist's are saying without making a big public announcement like the United Church of Christ.
dacontinent
Preacher
Fortitude said:
I am convinced that the compromise of spiritual principles will always cause confusion in Christendom. Jesus was clear about such matters during His incarnation. As his remaining body, we must be also lest we blur and even obscure His image. (double entendre intended)
MsJag4Jag
Moderator
I am UMC...and Kirbyjon...well you have to be there to hear it. It is not acceptable and not acceptable to God. It is preached against as well as other sins. We often have prayer for their healings...all healings. Trust it is not accepted, but it is understood that there are all types of people in the world...
Just as the scriptures are given about honoring thy mother and father...so is the scriptures regarding drunkards, whoremongers, homosexuality...etc.
I have seen some leave the church...and recently witnessed one who is obviously at a stringle in his life, give his life to God. God is soooo awesome!
Just as the scriptures are given about honoring thy mother and father...so is the scriptures regarding drunkards, whoremongers, homosexuality...etc.
I have seen some leave the church...and recently witnessed one who is obviously at a stringle in his life, give his life to God. God is soooo awesome!
dacontinent
Preacher
J4J said:
Original:
[We pray for Kirbyjon and all UMC's that support the stance of scripture in these matters and that the organization will rescind its position. The stance that the UMC has taken on this matter is counter to scripture. Hundreds of members in my area of Florida have left the UMC as a result of it. Amid all of the erosion of bible doctrine, we need the UMC to return to a position of strength.]
Correction:
Thanks to Dr. H for straightening me out on this! Thank God for keeping the UMC strong!
Dr H..
Active Member
dac
The only reason for using Matthew is to point out that God has guidelines on thing should be done. In other words, how many times did the preacher meet with him to discuss his lifestyle (1, 2 or 3) or did the preacher decided to say ?You need to repent, before you can become part of the UMC or this particular congregation.?
On the other hand since, he was not a member of this particular congregation the preacher was out of line when he requested him to repent. A preacher cannot ask a person to repent, if he has no biblical authority over this individual. And from reading the article again, he wanted to become a member. Therefore, the preacher had no authority to ask him to repent.
Here lies the problem with ?Monday morning QB?s ? US? we do not have all the facts. And our opinions are based on fragmented information. We all know the media tend to print only the part of a story that will get the most attention.
"Taken from the UMC Creed"
Homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth. All persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self. The United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian teaching. We affirm that God's grace is available to all, and we will seek to live together in Christian community. We implore families and churches not to reject or condemn lesbian and gay members and friends. We commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons.1
The only reason for using Matthew is to point out that God has guidelines on thing should be done. In other words, how many times did the preacher meet with him to discuss his lifestyle (1, 2 or 3) or did the preacher decided to say ?You need to repent, before you can become part of the UMC or this particular congregation.?
On the other hand since, he was not a member of this particular congregation the preacher was out of line when he requested him to repent. A preacher cannot ask a person to repent, if he has no biblical authority over this individual. And from reading the article again, he wanted to become a member. Therefore, the preacher had no authority to ask him to repent.
Here lies the problem with ?Monday morning QB?s ? US? we do not have all the facts. And our opinions are based on fragmented information. We all know the media tend to print only the part of a story that will get the most attention.
"Taken from the UMC Creed"
Homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth. All persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self. The United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian teaching. We affirm that God's grace is available to all, and we will seek to live together in Christian community. We implore families and churches not to reject or condemn lesbian and gay members and friends. We commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons.1
dacontinent
Preacher
Dr H.. said:
I might be over-simplifying things, but John the Baptizer, Jesus, Peter, and Paul commanded it of sinners through their preaching. What changed with the biblical authority of the preacher? I need you to help me with this.
Thanks for clearing this up for me. I feel an awful lot better. Now, I have to have some conversations with some former UMC'ers and see if this will help their understanding.Dr H.. said:
I cannot quite go to being in ministry with all persons, but I think I understand what they mean...At least I hope so.
Dr H..
Active Member
True, as I previously said after they were taught -
Acts Chapter 2 is a good example after
Here is the preaching and teaching -
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Results of the preaching -
Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? - 37
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. - 38
Also, you have to remember the "church" as we know it today, did not exist during the time of Jesus and John the Baptist. However, they taught their listners first. Again just maybe if the preacher had taken the time to teach the man that homosexuality is wrong, he would have repented.
Bottom Line
First he needed to confess that he has sinned, in his mind perhaps, he's thinking that he had not sinned.
We have to realize
That not every sin we commit needs to be confessed publicly before the church. We need to confess our wrongs to those we have sinned against. If we have sinned against God only, then we only need to confess to Him
If we have sinned against others, or the church, we need to confess to God (for all sin is against God) and to whomever else was affected by our sin.
Question: Was the preacher or congregation affected by his sins?
Question: How many knew of his homosexuality before it was made "public"
Whenever someone sins and it is known by others, that action sends a non spiritual message to all who know about it. What is the message is "I have decided to do something contrary to the word of God."
This is the next step
How can a person repent of a sin and correct it? By confessing that sin publicly as well. The one who has sinned in public and who wishes to get right with God must send scriptural message to the public. The message is "I have repented of my sin and wish everyone to know it." That's what public confession is all about. And that's what the peracher was asking this man to do.
On the other hand
His sins was committed behind "closed doors" therefore, he need only to repent to God.
This topic can get deep.
Mr. Preacher,
"If both are individuals of sacred worth" , why are you denying this man "membership" to learn, confess and repent" it appear that you are going against your own creed.
dacontinent
Preacher
Dr H.. said:
Membership is not needed to learn, confess, and repent. The matter of the creed is tantamount to holding the ministerial credentials of the UMC. If his actions violate that creed, he has two choices: abide by the creed or renounce it and surrender his credentials.
This is why we have membership applications and a 15-week course for prospective members to learn what kingdom living is about and how we are doctrinally aligned. We strive to make sure the people know what they are getting into before they jump on-board. After completion of the course, we ask the prospect whether they still want to be a member. If so, we sign a covenant. We have never had a person who lived as an unrepentant homosexual to come into covenant with our church because we cover that in the course. They are more than welcome to attend our services and some do.
While the excerpt taken from the UMC Creed talks about embracing everyone
sacred worth, it merely implores families and churches not to reject or condemn lesbian and gay members and friends. I trust that there is further language somewhere that is more definitive to address relieving the pastor in question of the pulpit.
At any rate we know that our congregation is not the right place for every believer and will gladly point folks that don't fit to a place where they might be better served. We celebrate victories together. We strive for transparency. The pastor (that's me) makes open confessions to the congregation. We have a system of personal accountability within our small groups that just turns some experienced believers away from our church. Our couples meet and talk about the struggles that we face in our marriages, parenting, and extended families; there are people who run from that as well.
In John 6 many of Jesus' disciples "went back, and walked no more with him" because of some of the tough things that He had to say. They disfellowshipped themselves.
Dr H..
Active Member
dac
I am guessing based on your last comment you?re UM. I guess what confuses me as it relates to most denominations, is the word membership. Again based on my understanding and from talking with preachers from various denominations they act as if the church is some type of organizations such as the Masons, Elks and so on.
Based on my understanding of the bible only God, as I previously pointed out ?Adds to the Church and not mankind ? Acts 2:47? In other words we can attend church, sing in choirs and such like, if you have not met the requirements as outlined in the word, you are only attending ?church? however, you may not be a member of the Church that God is adding to.
We have to seperate God's or Christ's Church from mans Church. It's apparent that in order to become a member, the membership requirements and whom does the admitting [adding] are different.
I am guessing based on your last comment you?re UM. I guess what confuses me as it relates to most denominations, is the word membership. Again based on my understanding and from talking with preachers from various denominations they act as if the church is some type of organizations such as the Masons, Elks and so on.
Based on my understanding of the bible only God, as I previously pointed out ?Adds to the Church and not mankind ? Acts 2:47? In other words we can attend church, sing in choirs and such like, if you have not met the requirements as outlined in the word, you are only attending ?church? however, you may not be a member of the Church that God is adding to.
We have to seperate God's or Christ's Church from mans Church. It's apparent that in order to become a member, the membership requirements and whom does the admitting [adding] are different.
dacontinent
Preacher
Dr H.. said:
I am straight-up holy-roller, tongue-talking, Bible-studying, fruit-bearing, Holy Ghost-filled Pentecostal with a great love for the UMC and all of the other groups that honor Jesus as Savior, Lord, and the only Door to the Father.
We welcome all believers into the body of Christ, but we recognize that every style of worship and teaching is not suited for everyone. Jesus adds to the Church daily such as should be saved. That does not mean that you are ready to support the ministry of a given congregation.
Let's just take singing in the choir. "Jenny Smith" was raised a very good Catholic / Pentecostal / Baptist / Methodist / Presbyterian / etc., but never got saved. She did everything that a good Catholic / Pentecostal / Baptist / Methodist / Presbyterian / etc., girl is supposed to do. She is a marvelous singer and a favorite in a number of nightclubs in the area. She has been floundering around in the world for a few years committed only to herself. So, she comes to (y)our congregation with a friend and receives Jesus as Savior. She's a babe. She has no clue that singing in the choir is a ministry and not just being in a musical group. She doesn't know what the choir is singing about and she has not even given much thought to her (hopefully) formerly loose lifestyle that got her into drinking and drugs will reflect on the body of Christ let alone (y)our congregation. In fact, she doesn't even understand that she is part of a body whose other parts depend on her.
Is she ready to sing in the choir of ANY congregation. No. Why? Because she has no clue about who she has become. She has to be taught that. Is she welcome to come to choir rehearsal? Sure. She will learn there. She will ask questions. She will hear the Word. She will be encouraged and challenged in her walk with the Lord. She will learn that God has standards for our living that go beyond the presentation of our talents.
Is she ready to tell someone else that Jesus is Lord and that He is ready to become their Lord as well? Absolutely. But she's not ready to do much more until she's been taught and has receive the truth.
The Church is an organism with standards, rules, order, etc. Each church is an organization with standards, rules, order, etc. Those elements in each church SHOULD mirror those of the Church, but I none of those that I have found are perfect yet.
Blacknbengal
Well-Known Member
dacontinent said:
I like that. I think every church should institute some guidelines as these.