Church Bans Minister for denying membership to homosexual
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BLAQUE PRINCE
Fug <insert your school here>!
J4J said:
And that is good...but if he misunderstood what steps he should take or refused to take them then he should be corrected. He should continue to attend service and seek counseling until he understands and agrees.
Or should the minister lie to him and let him THINK he can be ADDED by any means he chooses?
BLAQUE PRINCE
Fug <insert your school here>!
J4J said:
Now did the preacher say come as you are and plan on NOT changing?
MsJag4Jag
Moderator
BLAQUE PRINCE said:
I did not say they said that. Of course you must change, but in whose timing must you change? God's or the preachers timing. Of course we must change.
2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is?his good, pleasing and perfect will.
BLAQUE PRINCE
Fug <insert your school here>!
J4J said:
The preacher has no timing in this because he is not the one that adds you to the church. He simply told the man what God has said. Their is a difference between struggling with sin and condoning it.
dacontinent
Preacher
jag4life said:
I guess I on the other end of the spectrum. I have been a part of a couple of churches (some years ago) where the ills of homosexuality were addressed at least once every month. It must be addressed...along with everything else.
Yes, I have recently had brothers confess to recently being overtaken by alcohol, nicotine, weed, racism, infidelity - right at the altar on Sunday morning. None of those things were mentioned at all in the services. We simply preached on the love and grace of God and His ability to deliver us from whatever vices present themselves; that He loves us enough to accept us as we are and too much to leave us as we are. Confession and repentence are a part of our weekly prayer service on Tuesday night. We have accountability groups for marriage, men, women, and youth where he help each other with whatever struggles we are facing.
If we are to know each other and be able to love each other, we must develop transparency between us. A wife will never reproduce if she hides from her husband. Relationships get warped when information is hidden between the parties.
I have to run, but I will leave you with this for now:
James 5:13-20
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.KJV
Dr H..
Active Member
I believe the preacher was upset, because the man refuses to repent of his sins in front of the congregation. In most cases preachers uses the title / position as a source of authority in the church and for some reason the congregation allow this to happen. I honest believe, when he refuses to repent as requested, the preacher ?face was broken? and he felt threaten because someone did not obey him. Some preachers want to be a Diotrephes, ?The Diotrephes Syndrome? ruling under ?their? philosophy in most cases it?s ?Do as I say, end of discussion? and that is dangerous, because the congregation become no more than robots, dancing the song and directions of the preacher rather than God.
The first step should have been teaching the man that homosexuality was wrong. Once he learned and accepted that, then it?s time to repent. Reflecting, back on all the teaching of Father and Son, they first taught the people and then expected them to change.
Theaching him that homosexuality is wrong - What are you saying Dr. H., beleive it or not, there are individuals that does not feel that homosexuality is wrong. In fact they do not beleive that a a "lot" of sins we do is wrong.
One of the biggest ?hidden? problems in the church is we expect people to change. How can they change if they have not been received instructions from the Preacher? I honestly believe that, when someone says, ?I want to join the church? the congregation ?automatically? assume that person if familiar with the bible.
I honestly beleive, if the preacher had taken the person aside and explained to him "according to the word" that your behavor is wrong, he would have repented.
What ever happen to the first step in correcting someone?
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother" Matthew 18 - 17.
When I repent, I repent and ask God to forgive me, not the congregation, unless I have offended the congregation as a whole.
The first step should have been teaching the man that homosexuality was wrong. Once he learned and accepted that, then it?s time to repent. Reflecting, back on all the teaching of Father and Son, they first taught the people and then expected them to change.
Theaching him that homosexuality is wrong - What are you saying Dr. H., beleive it or not, there are individuals that does not feel that homosexuality is wrong. In fact they do not beleive that a a "lot" of sins we do is wrong.
One of the biggest ?hidden? problems in the church is we expect people to change. How can they change if they have not been received instructions from the Preacher? I honestly believe that, when someone says, ?I want to join the church? the congregation ?automatically? assume that person if familiar with the bible.
I honestly beleive, if the preacher had taken the person aside and explained to him "according to the word" that your behavor is wrong, he would have repented.
What ever happen to the first step in correcting someone?
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother" Matthew 18 - 17.
When I repent, I repent and ask God to forgive me, not the congregation, unless I have offended the congregation as a whole.
MsJag4Jag
Moderator
DOC: AMEN AND AMEN AGAIN! That transparency is a must. We can't do that until we are taught about God's love and can understand that no matter which way we came, we'll be loved and prayed for to help break any addictions or sins. God is awesome!
Dr. H: That is plausible and believable. Not all homosexuals are flamboyant. (some are on the DOWNLOW)....In that case, it is believable that the young may not have confessed that in front of all those people. He felt embarassment just as if a woman who had been a prostitute/drug user might feel embarassment until he/she comes to himself and gets to know the LOVE OF GOD! Of course we don't know this for fact...but it is plausible.
Dr. H: That is plausible and believable. Not all homosexuals are flamboyant. (some are on the DOWNLOW)....In that case, it is believable that the young may not have confessed that in front of all those people. He felt embarassment just as if a woman who had been a prostitute/drug user might feel embarassment until he/she comes to himself and gets to know the LOVE OF GOD! Of course we don't know this for fact...but it is plausible.
Dr H..
Active Member
4life
Base on personal experience with preachers, being in the pullpit for several years and I have been around preachers from all denominations. Who will tell you "That's my church" and whatever I say goes. You will surprise, how preachers feel disrespected when someone refuse to follow their instructions.
With a majority of black preachers is a "power thing" and when you do not do as I say, you are disrespecting me. If you ask, where does it say that in the bible - more than likely the preacher will say are you questioning God. No! I just want to know where it's located in the bible.
I have heard several preachers say "I will put that fool out of the church" I know women that "run" the church, through their husbands.
There is one book I suggest that everyone purchase "What the bible teaches" By Torrey, this book list every topic from "A to Z"
Base on personal experience with preachers, being in the pullpit for several years and I have been around preachers from all denominations. Who will tell you "That's my church" and whatever I say goes. You will surprise, how preachers feel disrespected when someone refuse to follow their instructions.
With a majority of black preachers is a "power thing" and when you do not do as I say, you are disrespecting me. If you ask, where does it say that in the bible - more than likely the preacher will say are you questioning God. No! I just want to know where it's located in the bible.
I have heard several preachers say "I will put that fool out of the church" I know women that "run" the church, through their husbands.
There is one book I suggest that everyone purchase "What the bible teaches" By Torrey, this book list every topic from "A to Z"
Dr H..
Active Member
J4J
One of my cousins preach at one of the largest church in Detroit. I remember years ago at his uncles my grandfathers funeral he said after someone said something at the funeral.
"If I was the preacher I would put him out of the church"
Now ow can you put someone out of the church. Ther only thing the bible teach is "not to assoicate or withdrawl" fromthose who refuse to repent after they have been gone trough the procedure for withdrawl.
I know some preachers that ask member to leave if they cannot obey what he says.
One of my cousins preach at one of the largest church in Detroit. I remember years ago at his uncles my grandfathers funeral he said after someone said something at the funeral.
"If I was the preacher I would put him out of the church"
Now ow can you put someone out of the church. Ther only thing the bible teach is "not to assoicate or withdrawl" fromthose who refuse to repent after they have been gone trough the procedure for withdrawl.
I know some preachers that ask member to leave if they cannot obey what he says.
BLAQUE PRINCE
Fug <insert your school here>!
Dr H.. said:
Lets not make up any more to the story.
The man acknowledged to the minister what he does and does not wish to repent. The story says nothing about the minister seeking a public confession.
If churches harp on homosexuality as you all claim then by this time I'm sure the man should have heard that its wrong being that he attends the church. Lets stay on one side of the fence.
docmump
The Arch Nemesis
All I got to say in regards to this latest exchange of words is this.
When The woman was caught by the men for committing Adultery. At the End of the account, Jesus asked her where were her accusers. She said they were gone. Here is the important part.
He told her to go and "sin no more"... If we are to be saved from Sin we should go, back into the world and "Sin No More".
For those who need to read it for themselves and you should. St. John 8:1 thru St. John 8:11.
I.E. If I join a church, it is my intention to sin no more, even though I still sin. I plan not to sin anymore. Now If I plan to still sin then I am committing blasphemy.
When The woman was caught by the men for committing Adultery. At the End of the account, Jesus asked her where were her accusers. She said they were gone. Here is the important part.
He told her to go and "sin no more"... If we are to be saved from Sin we should go, back into the world and "Sin No More".
For those who need to read it for themselves and you should. St. John 8:1 thru St. John 8:11.
I.E. If I join a church, it is my intention to sin no more, even though I still sin. I plan not to sin anymore. Now If I plan to still sin then I am committing blasphemy.
major095
ASU4real
Dr H.. said:
Ur right, some, I'm sure, don't know that homosexuality is a sin, and with Christian churches out there condoning gay marriages, making actively gay men bishops, I could understand their confusion. That's why it is of utmost importance that churches stand up and be accountable for their congregations and communities. They must preach and TEACH God's word without filter.
Now there are others who know what God has said regarding homosexuality and many other sins as well, as just do what they want to do. This young man seems to have fallen into the latter catagory along with those who went about removing the pastor. They know what the bible says about this and seemingly have rejected the teaching. Know that young man probably is very confused. the pastor told him it was wrong and was punished for doing so?
this is just an example of how the church all too often address sin of any kind. we do what is convient, and pc and our homes, community, churches and country suffer as a result. because we don't want be real with ourselves. we are too afraid of being calling us homophobic, or that when we reveal that we are Christians that we'll be held to the impossible standard of perfection.
lastly, the bible is replete with of examples of sin in the church and how it can be dealt with. I believe paul wrote to the church at corrinth (I cor 5) when he heard that men were sleeping with their own mothers. he wrote to tell them better so they would know and do better. " Corrupt principles and examples, if not corrected, would hurt the whole church. Believers must have new hearts, and lead new lives. Their common conversation and religious deeds must be holy. So far is the sacrifice of Christ our Passover for us, from rendering personal and public holiness unnecessary, that it furnishes powerful reasons and motives for it. Without holiness we can neither live by faith in him, nor join in his ordinances with comfort and profit. " ( from the henry complete commentary)
Dr H..
Active Member
Sometimes we do what we want, because we do not realize what we are doing is a sin, just ask some of the Mormans.
As I said before, before we can repent, we have to be taught, what we are doing is a sin. "Forgot the scripture" but it says where there is no law, there is no sin.
Seriously, maybe he did not know that homosexuality is a sin.
As I said before, before we can repent, we have to be taught, what we are doing is a sin. "Forgot the scripture" but it says where there is no law, there is no sin.
Seriously, maybe he did not know that homosexuality is a sin.
dacontinent
Preacher
J C said:
Yes, the UMC has the right to decide how to govern churches of their fellowship.
Dr H..
Active Member
No, if they are using the bible as their guide. The bible does not authorize any man the right to say "no you cannot become part of this congregation" In fact Jesus, never denied anyone an opportunity to be saved. So how can a preacher or board deny anyone an opportunity to be saved or join a particular congregation?
Yes, if they set their own rules and regulations. It's apparent the UMC like other denominations uses parts of the bible.
Notice John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The key word is "whosoever" that word is inclusive, therefore, God has open the door to salvation for everyone and no one has the right to deny anyone an opportunity to be saved.
The problem is mankind has left the foundation of Christianity, based on the teachings of Christ. That's why I am so glad that only God can add to the church and not mankind.
dacontinent
Preacher
Dr H.. said:
Dr. H, I am a little surprised at this position from you. You shared Matthew 18:15 in an earlier post. Here are the next two verses.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Heathens and publicans were spiritual outcasts. The message here should be clear. It did not mean that we should not be loving or kind to such persons nor withhold aid from them in crisis or trial, but that we should disown him as a Christian brother and treat him as we do other people not connected with the church. The steps to gain him should be taken first. If he refuses, he must be disfellowshipped to preserve peace and purity in the church.
Being a part of a congregation and being a part of the Church are two different things. From what I have read of this case, the man was not denied being part of the congregation at all nor was he denied the opportunity to be saved. All I can tell is that the UMC has adopted a policy that homosexuality is not grounds for being disfellowshipped - unless the action involves minors (I have familiarity of such cases near where I live). The interesting thing is that homosexuality involving adults or minors is still illegal where I live, but the legal implication is what the UMC decisions were based on in my local area.
The scriptures here tell us that Jesus requires that such disciplinary actions be taken regarding the church. I think the real question is how long and under what conditions should ANY type reproachful behavior is to be tolerated before the congregation / fellowship / organization / denomenation takes disciplinary action to disfellowship one of its own. It requires wisdom. There are differing levels of tolerances for newer believers than for those who have been around a while. There are still different tolerances for those in leadership and the laity. But...there must be discipline executed by humans.
MsJag4Jag
Moderator
Dr H.. said:
Yes, yes. Yes indeed! There is a time and a season for all things, right? When was the time for the homosexual to denounce his nature. I think by allowing that man to remain in the faith but yet preach what THE WORD says about homosexuality as well as OTHER sins...I think in time, his heart might have been softned and he could then "be ye renewed by the transforming of the mind".....EVEN IF he didn't change his mind today, he might have changed it in a year or two...but how long is too long?
BLAQUE PRINCE
Fug <insert your school here>!
J4J said:
Im still trying to understand how long is too long for what. He WAS allowed to continue to attend and hear the word. No one told him he could not come to church anymore. What difference was being a card carrying member at the congregation going to make...THE WORD would still have been the same right??? They had already accepted him obviously as he was a choir member. He could continue to attend and learn with no problem.
I believe dacontinent hit it on the head. There is a difference between memership in a local congregation(whatever that is good for) and membership in THE CHURCH. The man clearly stated he had no plans to repent so I don't see how he could be added and the minister would have been lying if he told him otherwise.
