Black Coaches in the NFL
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DonTiger
The One....The Only
Man
We all over the sports board with this argument Legs.
Let me ask you this. When Baseball was all white, the Negro league players (at that time) were overlooked, overshadowed, and underappreciated. I'll bet you more of our people can quote stats and records from Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle than any of the former Negro League players. Then Blacks were given a chance. Now we have Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. Barry Bonds.
WE'VE GOT TO GIVE 'EM a chance man. This whole minority coaching deal is in it's infancy stage. What, only 2 or three black coaches out of 30 now right. Well Legs, Before baseball's intergration, Babe Ruth's record was thought unreachable. Now Hank Aaron has it and Barry Bonds is on his way. Is he still the Home RUN King? Hank had to hit home run number one in order to catch Ruth man. He would have never got to that 1st one if he never even got the chance.
Sure Gibbs has 3 titles. Let's give Lovey Smith a crack at his 1st and see how far he goes !
Originally posted by crazylegs
So being a Hall of Fame coach and Winning 3 super Bowls is "smoke & mirrors"????
We all over the sports board with this argument Legs.
Let me ask you this. When Baseball was all white, the Negro league players (at that time) were overlooked, overshadowed, and underappreciated. I'll bet you more of our people can quote stats and records from Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle than any of the former Negro League players. Then Blacks were given a chance. Now we have Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. Barry Bonds.
WE'VE GOT TO GIVE 'EM a chance man. This whole minority coaching deal is in it's infancy stage. What, only 2 or three black coaches out of 30 now right. Well Legs, Before baseball's intergration, Babe Ruth's record was thought unreachable. Now Hank Aaron has it and Barry Bonds is on his way. Is he still the Home RUN King? Hank had to hit home run number one in order to catch Ruth man. He would have never got to that 1st one if he never even got the chance.
Sure Gibbs has 3 titles. Let's give Lovey Smith a crack at his 1st and see how far he goes !
DonTiger
The One....The Only
So...!
Green was a frontrunner for the Skin's job too. Man, the way things are right now I wouldn't be suprised if a team tried to interview me for the job just to satisfy the league rule.
I wouldn't be suprised if the Raiders bring back Don Shula instead of hiring Green.
According to Crazyleg's line of thought, that would be a justifiable move
Green was a frontrunner for the Skin's job too. Man, the way things are right now I wouldn't be suprised if a team tried to interview me for the job just to satisfy the league rule.
I wouldn't be suprised if the Raiders bring back Don Shula instead of hiring Green.
According to Crazyleg's line of thought, that would be a justifiable move
Devil's Gun Trigger Man
onward and upward son!
I heard Denny Green is the frontrunner for the Raiders job also. Al Davis doesn't care if u are black, brown, or yellow, Al Davis always says "JUST WIN BABY", and he is gonna do that with whatever color coach will get the job done. Afterall who gave Art Shell his first head coaching job?
Suge
The Phat Mack
I'm sorry but I can't get behind you on this one DT. The NFL is a retread league. Always has been. If a coach has proven that he can win in the NFL, he will always have aleg up on the assistants who haven't. And that isn't a racial issue. Just the facts in the league. That same fact is why D. Green is the front runner for so many jobs. I don't think that many teams are inteviewing him just because he is a black head coach an dthey need him to fill the requirements that they have set for themselves. But he is just that goood of a coach, with a history of winning in the league. Most owners just aren't as eager to take a chance on a new coach with no head coaching experience.
And with the demise of Spurrier, then are less likely to look at college coaches too. Look how long it takes many assistants to get run as head coaching candidates. And next year we will see retrads again. Mora will be back in the cycle, as will reeves. Just the nature of the NFL.
Now I will give you on some level it may have some racial overtones. But we all know that in sports, race is one issue that hardly matters. It is about winning, and if you can win, no one cares what race you are.
And with the demise of Spurrier, then are less likely to look at college coaches too. Look how long it takes many assistants to get run as head coaching candidates. And next year we will see retrads again. Mora will be back in the cycle, as will reeves. Just the nature of the NFL.
Now I will give you on some level it may have some racial overtones. But we all know that in sports, race is one issue that hardly matters. It is about winning, and if you can win, no one cares what race you are.
crazylegs
Da' Franchise...
don, you're looking at this in extremes, bruh... *lol*
as much as I want to see a black coach on every sideline, I don't want to see that take place at anybody elses expense...you can't really compare MLB in the 1900's to this because those players weren't getting an oppurtunity at all (i.e. Jim Crow)... You can't just throw the entire process out in order get minority folks in...
If that's the case, even interviewing for a gig is moot; and the system would be no better off because of it...
You tell me if Ray Rhodes or Denny Green's credentials match-up with Joe Gibbs in any way...
if this wasn't the Redskins, it might be different...Gibbs is just the right guy for this particular job...
as much as I want to see a black coach on every sideline, I don't want to see that take place at anybody elses expense...you can't really compare MLB in the 1900's to this because those players weren't getting an oppurtunity at all (i.e. Jim Crow)... You can't just throw the entire process out in order get minority folks in...
If that's the case, even interviewing for a gig is moot; and the system would be no better off because of it...
You tell me if Ray Rhodes or Denny Green's credentials match-up with Joe Gibbs in any way...
if this wasn't the Redskins, it might be different...Gibbs is just the right guy for this particular job...
DonTiger
The One....The Only
Dude
I know this sounds like I'm singling out Joe Gibbs or this particular job but I'm just calling out the whole league's ownership.
Dude, with your line of thought, Don Shula is a better candidate than any of the black coaches. Barry Switzer is a better candidate than any of the black coaches. It will continue to be that way if this line of thought excuses skipping over blacks when the opportunity comes along.
So, Let's hope we don't read reports that Switzer is on his way to Oakland......
I know this sounds like I'm singling out Joe Gibbs or this particular job but I'm just calling out the whole league's ownership.
Dude, with your line of thought, Don Shula is a better candidate than any of the black coaches. Barry Switzer is a better candidate than any of the black coaches. It will continue to be that way if this line of thought excuses skipping over blacks when the opportunity comes along.
So, Let's hope we don't read reports that Switzer is on his way to Oakland......
DonTiger
The One....The Only
Check this Suge
I got to call you out on this one man. When was the last black Dick Jueron (of the Bears) hired. He had no experience. When was the last tim a black Marty Morningway ( of Detroit) hired? He had no exprience. When was the last time a black Mike Tice (of Minnesota with like 2 years as an assistant) hired? How about a Fox (Carolina)? Or a Hasslet (Saints) Or a Andy Reed, or Mike Martz?
Need I keep going SUge. All of these guys were NFL assistants. No Head Coaching experience. AND ALL ARE WHITE !.
Didn't see Joe Gibbs or Don Shula or Barry Switzer falling out of any Owner's As_ when those jobs came available.
Now we have several Black NFL assistants who haven't gotten a chance and it' supposed to be just the nature of the business. That just aint true Suge. Look at the current coaches now man.
I got to call you out on this one man. When was the last black Dick Jueron (of the Bears) hired. He had no experience. When was the last tim a black Marty Morningway ( of Detroit) hired? He had no exprience. When was the last time a black Mike Tice (of Minnesota with like 2 years as an assistant) hired? How about a Fox (Carolina)? Or a Hasslet (Saints) Or a Andy Reed, or Mike Martz?
Need I keep going SUge. All of these guys were NFL assistants. No Head Coaching experience. AND ALL ARE WHITE !.
Didn't see Joe Gibbs or Don Shula or Barry Switzer falling out of any Owner's As_ when those jobs came available.
Now we have several Black NFL assistants who haven't gotten a chance and it' supposed to be just the nature of the business. That just aint true Suge. Look at the current coaches now man.
Suge
The Phat Mack
How many times had all of those guys been passed over for a job before being hired though? In favor of retreads? Yeah they were assistants and they had to pay their dues just like the black assistants have to pay their dues. Again, it is the nature of the NFL. Hell how many coaches were passed over when Spurrier and Butch Davis were hired, white and black? With all of your examples....except for Tice and Del Rio in Jacksonville, they were long time assistants who finally got a shot. Lovie Smith will eventually get his. As did Ray Rhodes(twice and is again in the retread loop because he has proven he can win). There is only one assiatant, who I say, gets a raw deal when head coaching jobs come available. That is Sherm Lewis. And he is a success everywhere he coaches, yet is never on the list of hot assistants! And of former head coaches....Art Shell was a winner and doesn't get any retread love. But there are plenty white coaches who fit this same profile as Shell.
But for all the white assistants you named. What about Marvin Lewis, Herm Edwards, and Tony Dungy(also a retread). They were long time assistants who finally got jobs. No different from many you named.
So are Denny Green and Ray Rhodes part of your problem too. Should they not get another chance, so that some black assistants can get a shot. Again, you are aguing against retread coaches, and they both are that? Or are they exepmt from the discussion because they are black? I mean your argument is that teams should look at fresh coaches instead of retreads, and that by hiring the same old folks they are limiting the chances of black coaches from getting jobs isn't it?
I just can't get behind you and seeing this as a racial issue. It is the same attitude I couldn't agree with when Bama hired Shula instead of Croom. Just because a black man and a white man are up for the same job and the white guy is hired, doesn't mean that racism was the reason for that hire. My mind doesn't allow me to think on that level.....
But for all the white assistants you named. What about Marvin Lewis, Herm Edwards, and Tony Dungy(also a retread). They were long time assistants who finally got jobs. No different from many you named.
So are Denny Green and Ray Rhodes part of your problem too. Should they not get another chance, so that some black assistants can get a shot. Again, you are aguing against retread coaches, and they both are that? Or are they exepmt from the discussion because they are black? I mean your argument is that teams should look at fresh coaches instead of retreads, and that by hiring the same old folks they are limiting the chances of black coaches from getting jobs isn't it?
I just can't get behind you and seeing this as a racial issue. It is the same attitude I couldn't agree with when Bama hired Shula instead of Croom. Just because a black man and a white man are up for the same job and the white guy is hired, doesn't mean that racism was the reason for that hire. My mind doesn't allow me to think on that level.....
twhite1
New Member
From ESPN: Green/Cardinals
Negotiations began Tuesday evening and, while indications are that Green will succeed the fired Dave McGinnis, there is work to be done. The offer, while better than Arizona has paid most of its head coaches in recent years, is not yet at the level where Green is willing to agree.
But discussions are scheduled to continue Wednesday and there is mutual interest in striking a deal that would end Green's two-year absence from the league (he's been an ESPN studio analyst the last two years). Green has had the support, from the outset of the courtship, of vice president of football operations Rod Graves. He then gained favor with vice president Michael Bidwill, the owner's son.
I did post all of the article, just the relevant portion.
Negotiations began Tuesday evening and, while indications are that Green will succeed the fired Dave McGinnis, there is work to be done. The offer, while better than Arizona has paid most of its head coaches in recent years, is not yet at the level where Green is willing to agree.
But discussions are scheduled to continue Wednesday and there is mutual interest in striking a deal that would end Green's two-year absence from the league (he's been an ESPN studio analyst the last two years). Green has had the support, from the outset of the courtship, of vice president of football operations Rod Graves. He then gained favor with vice president Michael Bidwill, the owner's son.
I did post all of the article, just the relevant portion.
DonTiger
The One....The Only
It's not a matter of opinion that this has become a race issue Suge. The LEAGUE recognizes that this is a race issue. That's why there are minority hiring guidelines in place. That's why Matt Millen got fine a quarter meal ticket. It's a serious problem.
In response to your statements, Marvin Lewis-Herm Edwards-Tony Dungy- Art Shell- Dennis Green- Ray Rhodes (I don't think I missed one) are it. So if you want to try to say Denny Green is a retread to validate what's taking place in the league. Well he's one vs many White Retreads. If you want to say that Marvin Lewis got their just due after waiting their turn like the white coaches. COUNT 'EM SUGE. How many NFL coaches have there been since full blown intergration in the 60's/70's/ I venture to say in excess of 100. Maybe more. And these are only 6 that were qualified. These are the only 6 that waited their turn like the white coaches. These are the only 6 who are deserving.
No equality. No opportunity. No progress in the last 5 or 6 years and you say your mentality just doesn't let you think that way SUGE. Well you're looking at the NFL through Rose Colored glasses if you don't recognize the problem but the NFL put guidelines in place because it does.
Robber
Consigliere
Suge,
The NFL is a retread league for white coaches. First black coach in the NFL was Art Shell. He had some good teams. Had the Raiders in the AFC championship once. How many years ago was that???? Why hasn't he been retread. Denny Green won a lot of games and a couple of division titles in Minnesota. NFC championship game. When is he gonna get retread??? Ray Rhodes did well in Philly. Got one year in Green Bay and was canned. Call that retread if you want. Young black coaches who are universally recognized as the best have to stand out for years(Marvin Lewis and Herman Edwards) before getting a shot. Sherman Lewis is still waiting. Tony Dungy is the only black coach to get a fair shot after losing his job.
What has Dave Wandstedt ever done??? He never won in Chicago. He can't win in Miami. But he keeps coaching. That dude simply can't coach. Jack Del Rio was playing ball a coupla years ago. Coaches a good defense one year and gets a head coaching job. The list goes on with white coaches. I don't knock the 'Skins hiring Joe Gibbs, tho. He was a helluva coach and may still something in him. But please don't try to believe that the NFL coaching hiring practices ain't racist.
The NFL is a retread league for white coaches. First black coach in the NFL was Art Shell. He had some good teams. Had the Raiders in the AFC championship once. How many years ago was that???? Why hasn't he been retread. Denny Green won a lot of games and a couple of division titles in Minnesota. NFC championship game. When is he gonna get retread??? Ray Rhodes did well in Philly. Got one year in Green Bay and was canned. Call that retread if you want. Young black coaches who are universally recognized as the best have to stand out for years(Marvin Lewis and Herman Edwards) before getting a shot. Sherman Lewis is still waiting. Tony Dungy is the only black coach to get a fair shot after losing his job.
What has Dave Wandstedt ever done??? He never won in Chicago. He can't win in Miami. But he keeps coaching. That dude simply can't coach. Jack Del Rio was playing ball a coupla years ago. Coaches a good defense one year and gets a head coaching job. The list goes on with white coaches. I don't knock the 'Skins hiring Joe Gibbs, tho. He was a helluva coach and may still something in him. But please don't try to believe that the NFL coaching hiring practices ain't racist.
Suge
The Phat Mack
You guys keep pointing to the problem, I keep pointing to the progress. Progress is when you that black coaches are starting to be retreads. Like I said the NFL is a retread league. I recognize and realize that historically there were no black coaches to be retreads, but I also see that is changing as more black coaches become successful head coaches. As for Robbers comments, we agreed on Shell and Sherm Lewis.
Still I can't get behind the broad paint brush and label the entire hiring practice of the NFL as racist and unfair. I applaud effort and I applaud progress. And progress is certainly something that doesn't happen overnight! But in the NFL you can't tell me that you don't see it. Just because there were seven openings doesn't mean that all seven will be filled by black coaches. And evenb if all seven were filled by white coaches, that doesn't automatically equal racism for me. You say no porgress in the last six years? Come on man, the most progress has been in the last 5-6 years.
Still I can't get behind the broad paint brush and label the entire hiring practice of the NFL as racist and unfair. I applaud effort and I applaud progress. And progress is certainly something that doesn't happen overnight! But in the NFL you can't tell me that you don't see it. Just because there were seven openings doesn't mean that all seven will be filled by black coaches. And evenb if all seven were filled by white coaches, that doesn't automatically equal racism for me. You say no porgress in the last six years? Come on man, the most progress has been in the last 5-6 years.
DonTiger
The One....The Only
I stand corrected Suge
I do stand corrected Suge. This will be Herman Edward's 5th year so Maybe I should have said in the last 4 or 5 seasons. How's that for progress. Exactly 1 new black coach over 4 seasons (Marvin Lewis) and we all know how long he's been out in the cold waiting on an opportunity. And when he get's one.....Well the Bengals.....Enough said.
Hot off the presses though. Denny Green get's the Cardinal job. Hooray, now there are 4 black coaches out of 30 plus in a league in excess of 60% black.
This is a case of through a [edit] bone if I've ever heard of one. Now in fairness it is impossible to tell why for sure that Green took a dead end job like Arizona but......In the last 5 years, 2 new coaching opportunities. 1 in Cincy....1 in Arizona. If that's satisfactory progress then crumbs off of the man's table must be very filling.
If you want to give some credit and Kudos to any league it should be to the NBA. Now this league treats its players more than fairly (guaranteed contracts...GRANT HILL) and has a repectable respresentation of Blacks in coaching, management and now even ownership. THE NFL IS NO WHERE CLOSE SUGE. And the NFL is much older. Like I said man.....Rose colored glasses.
I do stand corrected Suge. This will be Herman Edward's 5th year so Maybe I should have said in the last 4 or 5 seasons. How's that for progress. Exactly 1 new black coach over 4 seasons (Marvin Lewis) and we all know how long he's been out in the cold waiting on an opportunity. And when he get's one.....Well the Bengals.....Enough said.
Hot off the presses though. Denny Green get's the Cardinal job. Hooray, now there are 4 black coaches out of 30 plus in a league in excess of 60% black.
This is a case of through a [edit] bone if I've ever heard of one. Now in fairness it is impossible to tell why for sure that Green took a dead end job like Arizona but......In the last 5 years, 2 new coaching opportunities. 1 in Cincy....1 in Arizona. If that's satisfactory progress then crumbs off of the man's table must be very filling.
If you want to give some credit and Kudos to any league it should be to the NBA. Now this league treats its players more than fairly (guaranteed contracts...GRANT HILL) and has a repectable respresentation of Blacks in coaching, management and now even ownership. THE NFL IS NO WHERE CLOSE SUGE. And the NFL is much older. Like I said man.....Rose colored glasses.
crazylegs
Da' Franchise...
Don,
don, do you propose installing "minority" quotas to install black applicants into head coaching positions without regard to the merit of the coach???
According to your line of thinking, that's what you're pointing to and it would completely wreck the hiring practicies in the league...The idea is providing oppurtunities and a level field for minority applicants without taking oppurtunity from other folks, or completely destroying impartiality in the process...
It's one thing if you've got two applicants that have similar credentials for a given position and it comes down to a judgement call by the management..It's a whole different ballgame if the opposing applicant is better qualified for the gig...that was the case with the skins...
I feel what you're sayin don, but you just can't dismantle the entire process without taking oppurtunity from everybody else...
don, do you propose installing "minority" quotas to install black applicants into head coaching positions without regard to the merit of the coach???
According to your line of thinking, that's what you're pointing to and it would completely wreck the hiring practicies in the league...The idea is providing oppurtunities and a level field for minority applicants without taking oppurtunity from other folks, or completely destroying impartiality in the process...
It's one thing if you've got two applicants that have similar credentials for a given position and it comes down to a judgement call by the management..It's a whole different ballgame if the opposing applicant is better qualified for the gig...that was the case with the skins...
I feel what you're sayin don, but you just can't dismantle the entire process without taking oppurtunity from everybody else...
DonTiger
The One....The Only
The Truth
Legs the truth is I don't have a proposition. I have no idea how to fix the minority hiring practice in the league. As strongly as I've opposed the current establishment is as strongly as I oppose quota hiring. I am not in favor of reverse racism at all.
I wish I did have an answer on how to fix this problem. Black males in general are huge supporters (consumers) of the NFL. My own father own's 4 season tickets to the Dallas Cowboys. I just don't like seeing the man profit from our talent and consumer dollars while maintaining a racists establishment.
I'm just blowing the whistle and saying that this is not acceptable and the voice of oposition will be heard. How many black GM's are in the league? How many black vice presidents? How many black owners? Again, correct me if I'm wrong but I venture to say none. And if I am wrong then I can't be off by more than one or two front office personell. Then you look at the finished product. 60% or better black. It's exploitation without representation. Mike Vick, McNabb, Moss, Rice, Payton, Emmitt Smith, Dickerson, Owens, McNair, Gail Sayers, Jim Brown, OJ, Doug Williams, Ray Lewis, and on and on and on and on and on MAN!
4 out of 30 plus head coaches. No ownership. No GM's(I forgot about the cat in Baltimore Ozzie Newsome so) 1 GM. Few to no front office exec's. And we should be satisfied. This whole bring a coach back after 13 seasons while passing up more black coaches deserving of a chance is ok because he won a super bowl or two should go unquestioned. I think I raise a valid point to which I have heard no response to in regards to that. If that is acceptable then Don Shula, Barry Switzer, Hank Shramm, and God knows who else can come out of the wood works and be acceptable as well. Thanks goodness the Cardinals didn't get a chance to interview Tom Landry or Denny Green may still be looking for work.
UNACCEPTABLE MAN. And TRUE change and TRUE progress only comes when this type of B.S. is accpeted no more !
It can happen though. The NBA is a prime example of how change and progress can happen when we say NO MORE !
Legs the truth is I don't have a proposition. I have no idea how to fix the minority hiring practice in the league. As strongly as I've opposed the current establishment is as strongly as I oppose quota hiring. I am not in favor of reverse racism at all.
I wish I did have an answer on how to fix this problem. Black males in general are huge supporters (consumers) of the NFL. My own father own's 4 season tickets to the Dallas Cowboys. I just don't like seeing the man profit from our talent and consumer dollars while maintaining a racists establishment.
I'm just blowing the whistle and saying that this is not acceptable and the voice of oposition will be heard. How many black GM's are in the league? How many black vice presidents? How many black owners? Again, correct me if I'm wrong but I venture to say none. And if I am wrong then I can't be off by more than one or two front office personell. Then you look at the finished product. 60% or better black. It's exploitation without representation. Mike Vick, McNabb, Moss, Rice, Payton, Emmitt Smith, Dickerson, Owens, McNair, Gail Sayers, Jim Brown, OJ, Doug Williams, Ray Lewis, and on and on and on and on and on MAN!
4 out of 30 plus head coaches. No ownership. No GM's(I forgot about the cat in Baltimore Ozzie Newsome so) 1 GM. Few to no front office exec's. And we should be satisfied. This whole bring a coach back after 13 seasons while passing up more black coaches deserving of a chance is ok because he won a super bowl or two should go unquestioned. I think I raise a valid point to which I have heard no response to in regards to that. If that is acceptable then Don Shula, Barry Switzer, Hank Shramm, and God knows who else can come out of the wood works and be acceptable as well. Thanks goodness the Cardinals didn't get a chance to interview Tom Landry or Denny Green may still be looking for work.
UNACCEPTABLE MAN. And TRUE change and TRUE progress only comes when this type of B.S. is accpeted no more !
It can happen though. The NBA is a prime example of how change and progress can happen when we say NO MORE !
DonTiger
The One....The Only
Well
What are your comments about Mora Jr. in Atlanta. I guess he waited his turn better than Lovey Smith.
What do you think about the last 3 spots to be filled?
Word is that Oakland wants SF OC Knapp (I think I spelled that right) and Chicago is gonna chase Nick Saban.
Comments please?
What are your comments about Mora Jr. in Atlanta. I guess he waited his turn better than Lovey Smith.
What do you think about the last 3 spots to be filled?
Word is that Oakland wants SF OC Knapp (I think I spelled that right) and Chicago is gonna chase Nick Saban.
Comments please?
A&T Brandmasta
Blue Death Family
Who is up for the last head coaching gig remaining?
