A non-partisan question on HBCUs and Div I-A

[mighty hornet]

Re: Some (two) points T-M 90 made

Originally posted by Bartram
I think that with the growing affluency of black society in general, fan support, monitary support and even black philanthropy will grow to the point where there will be the financial resources to make the next move.

Ideal world vs real world



Not to start the usual ASU/Tuskegee argument, but if you think that HBCUs are "languishing" in 1AA, how do you feel about your alma mater (correct me if I'm wrong) playing at the Div 2 level.

 

[EB]

Re: Some (two) points T-M 90 made

Originally posted by Bartram
?..

I think that with the growing affluency of black society in general, fan support, monitary support and even black philanthropy will grow to the point where there will be the financial resources to make the next move. If not,,, it will be a testiment to us as supporters of our respective colleges, especially those of us who go on to become wealthy and successful after college.

Yes, there are some affluent Blacks that donate to Black causes. But a lot do not. A lot of Blacks do not share our passion for HBCUs. When we get out of the mindset of ?I got mine; you get yours? we will solve a lot of problems.

 

[EB]

Originally posted by Taylor-Made'90
I know it's been said before, but I'll say it again.

The biggest thing holding HBCUs back, in regards to moving to D1A football, is financial support. Not only from the institution, but from alumni and the community. Until we start to support our schools on the level of some of the PWCs, we're fooling ourselves thinking we can compete. I know whenever any HBCU gets a $10,000.00 donation, it's national news.....But the fact of the matter is, that a 10k donation at most PWCs doesn't get any press. So we have to continue to give, and keep giving until it hurts. And even then, give some more. Because if we don't support our HBCUs, how we expect anybody else to? True, most HCBUs started off as small private Teaching Colleges, funded by whites sympathetic to the Negro cause. And we're always grateful for their support. They helped put the train on the track, and in some cases, got the train rolling. But we've got to do the rest. We've got to keep the train rolling, and rolling with speed. That's where the breakdown is.
?..

Now, as far as school enrollment numbers go, HBCU enrollment in general will never reach large numbers until we can lessen our reliance on Federal Student Loans and Financial Aid. We have to be more creative in finding ways to send our kids to schools. Too many of our kids depend soley on FSL and FFA. Whereas our PWCs have created hundreds of options for paying for tuition. There are thousands of Grant Programs (that don't have to be paid back) out there, just waiting for us. But too few of us even know they exist. And our HBCUs can't make strides forward if the bulk of their tuition income comes from Uncle Sam...Why? Because Uncle Sam doesn't give the school the money when school starts. They wait until at least the 45th day of the semester before they send a dime. That means that the school has to figure out how to make-do and survive until the money comes. PWCs don't have this problem. They have enough Endownment or Foundation money to not necessarily have to rely on Uncle Sam money. They can operate independently.
?..

Besides, why would you want to go to D1A when you know you don't have to tools to be competitive. That's an insult to the kids, the coaches and the institutions, if they know they don't have the thinks needed to be able to compete. Let's face it. An HBCU Athletic budget of 1.5 million doesn't compete with Notre Dame's 9 million dollar Football budget.......Ain't no way....

I agree with everything here as well as Lewis? comments. Let?s face it. We do not support our schools like we should despite what Tom Joyner says about his foundation. The PWCs have the private support that allows them to do a lot of things. Unlike a lot of our administrations, theirs raise money. When we (HBCU grads and Black non-HBCU grads) start supporting our schools we will see some changes.

 

[H]

SOG

I can answer all three questions with one word....Nothing!

I agree with you 100%. MTSU "D1A", they have very little following. If I remember correctly, they average less than 15K per game in attendance.

I believe the main reason why there are no D1A HBCU's, is due to $$$$. How can the average HBCU fund a football program on that level, when they are living from pay check to pay check. Most HBCU's have a difficult time meeting the payroll and keeping the heat on during the winter.

 

[Bartram]

Much to your suprise Mighty Hornet, I think it sucks big time.

And further more, that was going to be my next example to the anti-D I-As on how complacency can set in.

My fundamental phylosophy will not change just because it will give people from ASU or whoever wants to jump on Tuskegee some free shots, so much to your and other's suprise, my position is consistant. I think it sucks, but we at Tuskegee are dealing with exactly what is prevalent here. There are hardline elements who have preserved Tuskegee's division ties because of tradition and because Tuskegee, for so long has been a monument in the SIAC. They have prevailed in keeping Tuskegee exactly where it is. Now, there are trade-offs. Tuskegee has the long, unbroken history with the SIAC, all the traditions, some of the historic ties,, etc, blah, blah, blah,,,,,, while the ASUs, the AAMUs and the MBC and SavStates have moved on.

How in the world, can Tuskegee, with it's history, as long as it's been around, still be at the Div II-A level? Tuskegee used to play the likes of the FAMUs, the Southerns (a few times) and just about every other HBCU that is now among the largest. In fact, the SIAC used to be THE conference that most of the HBCUs in the SE US were in. I mean,,, with all the tradition and all the fame and fortune of Tuskegee throughout the 20th century,, for us to still be at Div II-A is simply unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

I think it is much deeper than sports by the way. It's a fundamental choice made by the leaders of Tuskegee over the years to maintain certain aspects of Tuskegee's character over others. It goes beyond sports,, and in those other areas it's a mixed bag in my opinion,, but I can't get into all that in this thread.

We have the same mentality going on at Tuskegee that's prevalent in this whole issue. As long as we are content at Div II-A, everything is cool, and anytime someone suggests moving up, all the decades of inertia and "we can't because" and excuses pop up. That said, one of my colleagues from Tuskegee who is plugged into the inner workings of the alumni associations has said that Tuskegee is plotting a move, but I don't know of such a move nor have I heard of it. I don't think, however, Tuskegee is the same in terms of being on the cusp of moving to Div I-AA as the FAMUs, Jackson States and Southerns are to Div I-A. Tuskegee is one of the smaller SIAC schools by all measures,,, except that we have a strong winning tradition in football.

So in a nuttshell, Tuskegee to me is a micro-cosim of the whole HBCU satisfaction with Div I-A.

 

[Lewis]

Bartam,

Lewis, your position and comments are clear, however our bottom phylosophies are in divergence. I think it is clear we will continue to look at this from totally different views with my bottom line being constantly striving to evolve, striving for constant improvement,

No, our basic philosiphy is not different. I to believe in constantly striving to evolve, striving for constant improvement. But you have got to be intellegent about. For example, it is not smart to take a chance investing $1 million to get $1 thousand in return. Just not smart. Right now, the price tag for D1A is just to high for what an HBCU would get. It is not that we don't have ambition, we have ambition along with good judgement and discretion.<br><br>Given the funds we have now, a better investment and a better choice would be to spend it on better facilites. We cannot compete with D1A schools with the facilites we have now. And then there are other areas of the school that need help a whole lot more.<br><br> Let's anaylize the issue of going D1A. Given the cost (at least $1 million or more per year)<br> 1) Attendance - I can say here at Southern there won't be an attendance boost, we would probably lose fans. We come close to selling out every decent game against an HBCU unless the weather is bad. We will not get a higher attendance playing a lower tier D1A PWC than we will playing say ALCORN. <br>2) Scheduling - We would have to play a D1A schedule, which means dropping most of our rivals. Let's say we keep 2 D1AA games (Grambling and Jackson State), the rest of our schedule would be lower tier PWC or paid beatdowns at places like Iowa, Nebraska, etc. Fan support of this would definately drop tremdously. We are fine with playing 1 or 2 PWC a year, but the meat of the schedule better be our rivals (Read HBCU's). We are still hot about FAMU not being on the schedule. In additon, we all know that the battle of the bands is a big part of HBCU football, who wants to see the Jukebox battle MTSU's band.<br>3) Some would say recruiting better athletes. I doubt it. Some players have their mind made up that they want to play at an HBCU, and some do not. As long as our facilites (read MONEY) are where they are at, we still won't get many of the others. Untill we got black car dealers that will lease them cars for no money and give them jobs they ain't got to go to, .... LSU has an INDOOR pratice field and are building an Academic Center for athletes, for example, we just can't compete with that now, no matter how many A are in our classification. (READ AGAIN, MONEY) <br>4) Making money. Well, we make a lot of our money with classics and big home games against our rivals. We go D1A and that's pretty much out the window (see above) particularly following your model (1 school go to start), now if the whole swac went (won't happen) then enough HBCU would be their to keep it going. Sure we could make some money on paid beatdowns, (go to Nebraska, Penn St, etc.) but who wants to do that, I know I don't, esp just to say D1A, when we are doing fine where we are at.<br>5) We can poke our chest out and brag that we are D1A. This must be worth a million dollars to you. But it ain't worth it to me. I got ambition just like you, I just use discretion on were to put it. Right now, it is fix our field, staduim and scoreboard, and other facilites like weight rooms and meeting rooms. we are renovating the minidome, and our baseball field, and TITLE IX is still around. We have lots to do that is more important than D1A.<br>Now if we were D2 ..........

 

[Bartram]

Alright, let me put it this way then,,,

Lewis, if you and I had a direct say in what an HBCU on the cusp, in the debate of remaining Div I-AA or moving to Div I-A, it's clear we would be on opposite sides of the table. You would keep the school looking at things from the current situations, and I would be constantly challenging the school and finding ways to get around every obstacle that you bring up.

As I said in response to Mighty Hornet's poking me in the chest about Tuskegee. You can't tell me Tuskegee didn't go through the exact same scenarios that you run. You mean to tell me Tuskegee didn't have to make hard decisions when HBCUs started to peel away from the SIAC and move on to larger divisions and new conferences??? Yes, we did. Tuskegee chose to stay true to the SIAC/div II-A or Div III-A or whatever it was at the time,,,, and at that time it was a pretty solid decision(to the status quo powers of the day), assuming that all the core teams would do the same,, I mean,, back then, HOW COULD WE DARE THINK of losing the rivalry games with the likes of ASU (38 miles down the road), AAMU another land grant institution, Miles, MBC, Morehouse,,, on and on. OH BUT NOW LOOK!!! Guess what? AAMU is gone, ASU would be gone and probably will be if it were not for such a successful Turkey Day classic, MBC is gone and Savanah State is in transition (or at least that's my understanding) basically. The FAMUs, the South Carolina States, the Bethune Cookmans (I think we played them a few times), the Southerns, the Gramblings, the Jackson States, the TN states are all gone. They left while Tuskegee was sitting up staying true to the cause,, the rivalries,,, the tradition,, so on and so forth.

In the five scenarios you run, again these are all obstacles that will be overcome one way or the other. I see the likes of TNState and FAMU making progress in that respect. Even the JSUs and Southerns are inching forward little by little,,, taking on more "none traditional" opponents for none-conference games.

Also,,, take the FAMU vs Troy State game for example; I'm here to tell you,,,, black folks in Troy (and all of south Alabama) that wouldn't otherwise go to a Troy State game if you held a gun to their head,,, WENT TO THE FREAKING GAME BECAUSE FAMU WAS THERE. I work with black folks who have no HBCU ties whatsoever, but that was one game that everybody was talking about the week before it occured, FAMU vs Troy State, because of FAMU's name recognition and obvious black college status,, AND, mind you, because even many black football fans follow Troy State because of their winning tradition and good cross-section of local/state flavor of athletes. There where people at that game that had no ties to FAMU but who went to ASU, AAMU, Tuskegee, et al HBCUs,,, who were piling into the game because it was FAMU against Troy State and a good social event/"HBCU game" for the region. Believe it or not, their are many fans of HBCUs that have infiltrated every part of this country, especially the south and even beyond that, much of the local populous has been exposed to the regional HBCUs and when they hear that a "black college" is coming to town, they will come out just to socialize and see the halftime show if nothing else kid! I mean,, I'm just not with you on the doom and gloom of playing none-traditional schools.

Also on another issue of bitter debate among me and my in-state ASU and AAMU colleagues,,, none of the average blow-joe citizen in Troy give a rat's ass about "not playing them because it's a pay-game for Troy and dey don't beez show ups in Montgomery foe our games"(and I have a problem with that and can relate. I blast TSU WHITE fans for not showing up when the game is in MGM, because I'm from Alabama, parents/syblings are ASU grads, I know the history of the region, the "bad blood" ect,, but at some point they/we must GET OVER IT already. this is yet another deeper issue as relates to Alabama that I can't go into here),, all they care about is SEEING A FREAKING BLACK COLLEGE IN TROY AND SEEING THE HALF TIME SHOW,,, otherwise they are not too interested in going to Troy State games in any concerted fashion.


Mugz (the blacks from the region) was out, even for the social aspect, just to see an HBCU in town. Granted it was a playoff game, but I simply don't go with much of your takes on how HBCUs will suffer playing PWCs(I preface that with my plan that your core games/conference would be against the PWC upstarts in mostly in your region). Of coarse the HBCU core games/classics are the best draws,,, just like AU vs UA or Ole MS vs MS State are the big games,,, but with the way college football is going now days (pwc teams,, hell, dey all black anyway, dang UAB is 37% black,, and those kids all "cross over" when it comes to going to games. We got to think out the box here man.) I don't see those games as being much worse as far as interest, attendance as the existing "sop" conference games.

Also,,, who says they will be playing the Nebraskas year in and year out?? That's an extreme example for your case, but what I see is HBCUs in a conference, perhaps composed of the USAs, the Florida Atlantic Universities, the Georgia Southerns, the Univ of Tampas, the whoevers in your respective states that are moving up, so I don't look at going up against the Nebraskas and Notre Dames as the norm. There will obviously have to be new Div I-A conferences,,, the effect of the NCAA new rules notwithstanding.

 

[Blu Panther]

No, our basic philosiphy is not different. I to believe in constantly striving to evolve, striving for constant improvement. But you have got to be intellegent about. For example, it is not smart to take a chance investing $1 million to get $1 thousand in return. Just not smart. Right now, the price tag for D1A is just to high for what an HBCU would get. It is not that we don't have ambition, we have ambition along with good judgement and discretion.

Based on what information can you provide that suggest that participating at the NCAA Division I A level will cost $1million a will only give you $1 thousand in return.
What is the price tag for NCAA Division I A? Since your judgment and discretion are so good. Why should HBCU participate at the NCAA Division II level? Using your logic NCAA Division I A is much more expensive to operating an athletic budget than, NCAA Division II, should be less to operate an athletic budget than operating at our current NCAA Division I AA/Division I level.

Given the funds we have now, a better investment and a better choice would be to spend it on better facilites. We cannot compete with D1A schools with the facilites we have now. And then there are other areas of the school that need help a whole lot more.

What funds do you have now? Would not the yearly operating athletic budget at the NCAA Division II, NCAA Division I AA, or NCAA Division I A be a different fund than that budget that is use to build better facilities? I would agree. Facilities need to be upgraded. Again, if we can?t compete with NCAA Division I A schools, as has been suggested by many people as we attempt to compete with other programs at the NCAA Division I level in all other sports. Why are we not competing at the NCAA Division II level? Such that all of are programs can compete across the board and since ?there are other areas of the school that need help a whole lot more?, it would also reduce the overall athletic operating budget. Are not the operating athletic budget and the general operating budgets two different accounts?

Let's anaylize the issue of going D1A. Given the cost (at least $1 million or more per year)

If the participating at the NCAA Division I A level only cost our program?s operating athletic budget an increase in the budget of at least $1million or more per year, then that differential in money could be made up in the two guarantee payouts of $300,000 each, the $750,000 NCAA legislated minimum guaranteed required by Bowl or Classic promoters to pay a NCAA Division I A program to participate in such an event, and the larger payout provided by the NCAA Division I Football committee to programs that participate at the NCAA Division I A level.

1) Attendance - I can say here at Southern there won't be an attendance boost, we would probably lose fans. We come close to selling out every decent game against an HBCU unless the weather is bad. We will not get a higher attendance playing a lower tier D1A PWC than we will playing say ALCORN.

I agree. A single HBCU athletic program would have difficulty moving from NCAA Division I AA to NCAA Division I A. The premise of the NCAA Division I A move was based on at least five HBCU programs moving from NCAA Division I AA status to NCAA Division I A status.

2) Scheduling - We would have to play a D1A schedule, which means dropping most of our rivals. Let's say we keep 2 D1AA games (Grambling and Jackson State), the rest of our schedule would be lower tier PWC or paid beatdowns at places like Iowa, Nebraska, etc. Fan support of this would definately drop tremdously. We are fine with playing 1 or 2 PWC a year, but the meat of the schedule better be our rivals (Read HBCU's). We are still hot about FAMU not being on the schedule. In additon, we all know that the battle of the bands is a big part of HBCU football, who wants to see the Jukebox battle MTSU's band.
I am afraid you are straying from the original premise. As I have stated I agree it would be difficult for one HBCU program to move from NCAA Division I AA status to NCAA Division I A status alone. For the move from NCAA Division I AA status to NCAA Division I A status to have any chance of success, it would have to be multiple HBCU programs that would petition the NCAA for the move. With this being the case the premise would be that a HBCU program would have at least four other NCAA Division I A HBCU programs to schedule with the addition of the one NCAA Division I AA HBCU program that would still count towards NCAA post-season bowl eligibility. Are you suggesting that a NCAA Division I A HBCU athletic program could not sale a 5 game HBCU, 6 game PWC (for SU this would include 2 or 3 regional NCAA Division I A programs ie. La Tech, Tulane, ULL, ULM, USM, or UH for home and home series) schedule to their students, alumni, and fans? Are you suggesting that Southern University students, alumni, and fans are more interested in scheduling Prairie View A & M University, Texas Southern University, Mississippi Valley State University, University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff? Since these would be more likely the programs that would not make the move to NCAA Division I A status in the premise of this argument.

3) Some would say recruiting better athletes. I doubt it. Some players have their mind made up that they want to play at an HBCU, and some do not. As long as our facilites (read MONEY) are where they are at, we still won't get many of the others. Untill we got black car dealers that will lease them cars for no money and give them jobs they ain't got to go to, .... LSU has an INDOOR pratice field and are building an Academic Center for athletes, for example, we just can't compete with that now, no matter how many A are in our classification. (READ AGAIN, MONEY).
So, you are under the impression that participating in the NCAA at the Division I A would not help a NCAA Division I A HBCU athletic program recruit better athletes. I agree ?some? players have their mide made up that they want to play at an HBCU, and ?some do not. I am referring to those athletes that do not have their mind made up to attend a HBCU. Recruiting those athletes can make the difference and participating at the NCAA Division I A level, just maybe that difference. Again if our facilities are where they are and we don?t have all the things that you have listed above. Why don?t are programs considering participating in the NCAA at the NCAA Division II level?

4) Making money. Well, we make a lot of our money with classics and big home games against our rivals. We go D1A and that's pretty much out the window (see above) particularly following your model (1 school go to start), now if the whole swac went (won't happen) then enough HBCU would be their to keep it going. Sure we could make some money on paid beatdowns, (go to Nebraska, Penn St, etc.) but who wants to do that, I know I don't, esp just to say D1A, when we are doing fine where we are at.
Although we generate a large part of our athletic operating budget from Classic games, we actually do not make great deal of money when you compare the payout for our Classics at the NCAA Division I AA level ($100,000 - $250,000) versus the minimum payout at the NCAA Division I A level ($750,000 - >), especially when you compare NCAA Division I AA HBCU Classic attendance numbers to NCAA Division I A Classic or Bowl attendance numbers. Again the premise of this argument was based on five HBCU athletic programs participating at the NCAA Division I A level. So, the big home games against rivals are not lost and that money is not pretty much out the window. I disagree with your logic that HBCU would ?only? have the ability to make some money on paid beat downs, (go to Nebraska, Penn St, etc). There are other options to allow a non-BCS program to make money and have success at the NCAA Division I A level (ie. Marshall and Southern Mississippi). If you have the ability and the procedure to do fine where you are, then why wouldn?t a similar plan and/or format work at the NCAA Division II level as well as at the NCAA Division I A level.

5) We can poke our chest out and brag that we are D1A. This must be worth a million dollars to you. But it ain't worth it to me. I got ambition just like you, I just use discretion on were to put it. Right now, it is fix our field, staduim and scoreboard, and other facilites like weight rooms and meeting rooms. we are renovating the minidome, and our baseball field, and TITLE IX is still around. We have lots to do that is more important than D1A.
Now if we were D2 ..........
Again participating at the NCAA Division I A level is not about whether we can poke our chest out and brag that we are a NCAA I A program. If that this case many could argue for the NCAA Division I AA/Division I programs are participating at the NCAA Division I AA level to poke our chest out and brag that we are NCAA Division I AA when compared to NCAA Division II programs. Again I understand you have ambitions and that you use discretion on were to put it. But, I have yet to hear or read a compelling argument on why this argument about NCAA Division I AA status versus NCAA Division I A status is not valid for an argument of NCAA Division I AA status versus NCAA Division II status. The problem with your suggestion about fixing our field, stadiums, and scoreboards, and other facilities is that it cost money and it is painfully obvious that operating at the NCAA Division I AA level has not provided you with enough revenue to do what you have suggested. So the question begs to ask. Why continue to do what as not (provided you with the revenue to fix your field, stadium, and scoreboard, and other facilities) worked?

 

[Shelt a 'Skegee Grad]

quoted by Bartram,

Tuskegee is one of the smaller SIAC schools by all measures,,, except that we have a strong winning tradition in football.

Actually Bartram, Tuskegee is the Second largest school in the Current SIAC (Behind Clark Atlanta), and has one of the largest Athletic budgets.

The prevailing reason TU has stayed in D2 for so long is that the administration has been very reluctant to increase spending in athletics at the percieved detriment of academic pursuits. The administration's support of athletics could be said to be ambivalent at best. An allegience to the SIAC also had something to do with it as you have stated. It is only recently at Comegy's prodding that TU's adminstration (Dr. Payton principally) has seen what a strong athletic program can bring to a School, and has loosened the purse strings if you will. An investigation by TU into moving to D1AA in football and D1 in other sports is not a rumor. It is happening. It is actually one of the things that was promised to Comegy in order to keep him from leaving TU for another school.

In the larger debate on this thread, I must agree with other posters. Div 1A is not a single fluid football division. It is actually BCS schools, and everybody else. Schools in the "everybody else" category get little exposure, and spend tons of money, playing D1A football. As an example, read the Detroit News or Free Press during football season, and see how little ink Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, or Western Michigan (all D1A schools) gets. For a geographic point of view, Eastern Michigan (in Ypsilanti) is closer to Detroit, than the Univeristy of Michigan (in Ann Arbor), and both Eastern and Central Michigan, are closer to Detroit, than Michigan State.

All of this to say, why move to division 1A, when you will be getting the same type of exposure as you're getting in D1AA, spending a whole lot more money than you are now, and potentially losing a whole lot more money than you are now. If you're not going to go BCS, then I think its best to stay at D1AA. That doesn't mean HBCU's have to stay stagnant in 1AA. There is Lots of room for improvement.

 

[majiksity]

Shelt - i finally see a person from 'Skegee with some common sense :lmao: - I am just kidding Shelt - as much as I hung out at 'Skegee I demand they put at least 9 credit hours on my transcript

Good post and I think you basically have summed up what everyone - besides Bartram - have been trying to say

NO MORE POST ABOUT MOVING FROM 1-AA TO 1-A WHEN THIS ONE IS CLOSED :redhot:

 

[Lewis]

Bartram

Lewis, if you and I had a direct say in what an HBCU on the cusp, in the debate of remaining Div I-AA or moving to Div I-A, it's clear we would be on opposite sides of the table. You would keep the school looking at things from the current situations, and I would be constantly challenging the school and finding ways to get around every obstacle that you bring up.

We are on opposite sides on the D1A thing, but we both have views on ambition and improvement. It's just where you apply it. Aqain, you don't address the real issue. I never said it could not be done, Southern can do it. You don't need to "be constantly challenging the school and finding ways to get around every obstacle " We know how to get around every obstacle. You talk like you are some super visionary because you can find a way to get around things. The main thing needed for SOuthern is money. We have enough but we got lots of things to spend it on besides D1A <br>
Blu Panther<br>First your statement "The premise of the NCAA Division I A move was based on at least five HBCU programs moving from NCAA Division I AA status to NCAA Division I A status." ,My remarks were in response to Bartam and Bartam said " Also, there seems to be an automatic assumption that any move to Div I-A would be a whole SWAC (or MEAC) move. I don't think that's the original point. It would be one school at a time; either a FAMU, a Southern or a Jackson State. "

So yall contradict each other.<br><br> As far as your statement about Division 2, I agree. With the support that PV gives athletics, PV should have went D2. They have a D2 operating budget. Some schools have a D1AA budget and should be D1AA (most SWAC and MEAC schools)<br>You give some numbers for bowl game payout. Most bowls have a conference tie in's so it won't be easy to get a bowl berth. Ain't nobody thinking about going D2, the best place for the rest of us is D1AA

 

[Blu Panther]

Shelt a 'Skegee Grad...

Shelt a 'Skegee Grad,

Actually Bartram, Tuskegee is the Second largest school in the Current SIAC (Behind Clark Atlanta), and has one of the largest Athletic budgets.

The prevailing reason TU has stayed in D2 for so long is that the administration has been very reluctant to increase spending in athletics at the percieved detriment of academic pursuits. The administration's support of athletics could be said to be ambivalent at best. An allegience to the SIAC also had something to do with it as you have stated. It is only recently at Comegy's prodding that TU's adminstration (Dr. Payton principally) has seen what a strong athletic program can bring to a School, and has loosened the purse strings if you will. An investigation by TU into moving to D1AA in football and D1 in other sports is not a rumor. It is happening. It is actually one of the things that was promised to Comegy in order to keep him from leaving TU for another school.

Very informative comments, on Tuskegee?s athletic programs status.

In the larger debate on this thread, I must agree with other posters. Div 1A is not a single fluid football division. It is actually BCS schools, and everybody else. Schools in the "everybody else" category get little exposure, and spend tons of money, playing D1A football. As an example, read the Detroit News or Free Press during football season, and see how little ink Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, or Western Michigan (all D1A schools) gets. For a geographic point of view, Eastern Michigan (in Ypsilanti) is closer to Detroit, than the Univeristy of Michigan (in Ann Arbor), and both Eastern and Central Michigan, are closer to Detroit, than Michigan State.

I agree that NCAA Division I A is not a single fluid football division, but neither is NCAA Division I AA. It is even a bigger issue at the NCAA Division I AA level, because of the various NCAA Division I AA programs that participate in NCAA Division I AA as non-scholarships programs, and those that do participate in NCAA Division I AA football as scholarship programs which varies from 15 scholarships programs to full 65 scholarship programs, and the NCAA Division I AA Ivy League that participates as grant-aid participants.

I disagree it is BCS programs and everybody else. I believe it is BCS programs that generate large revenue and operate with a profit, BCS programs that generate large revenue and operate with a deficit, non-BCS programs that have strong winning programs and loyal followings that generate revenue and operate with a profit, and finally non-BCS programs that have strong winning programs and loyal followings that do not generate revenue and operate with a deficit.

On your example of the Detroit Press, I agree that the local newspaper vary in the amount of coverage they provide to the various NCAA Division I A programs and I agree that it does not have do with distance. But, I would submit that the NCAA Division I A programs obtain more coverage than the local NCAA Division I AA programs as well as the local NCAA Division I AA programs are provided with more coverage than the local NCAA Division II programs unless there is a special set of circumstances that has do with a program gaining more coverage based on winning streak of sorts or the coverage a highly touted player.

All of this to say, why move to division 1A, when you will be getting the same type of exposure as you're getting in D1AA, spending a whole lot more money than you are now, and potentially losing a whole lot more money than you are now. If you're not going to go BCS, then I think its best to stay at D1AA. That doesn't mean HBCU's have to stay stagnant in 1AA. There is Lots of room for improvement.

With this in mind, I disagree with your argument that a NCAA Division I AA HBCU program will be given the same type of coverage as a NCAA Division I A HBCU program. We all know that this is not the case when we look at NCAA Division I A PWC programs versus NCAA Division I AA PWC programs, whether the NCAA Division I A programs is BCS or not. It is the natural state of evolution and constant change for HBCU as well as PWC programs to study and consider moves from NCAA Division I AA status to NCAA Division I A status as well as NCAA Division I A status to NCAA Division I AA or NCAA Division IAA to NCAA Division II, and etc. Just like many programs reviewed NCAA Division II status versus NCAA Division I AA status just like Tuskegee is considering a move from NCAA Division II status to NCAA Division I AA/Division I status.

Although, I agree that HBCU NCAA Division I A programs will spend considerably more money than HBCU NCAA Division I AA programs in terms of an athletic operating budget. One must consider the fact that HBCU NCAA Division I A programs have the ability to also generate a lot more money at the NCAA Division I A level, than they do at the NCAA Division I A level.

I would suggest that this area of athletic annual operations budget is one of the areas that Tuskegee?s administrations will evaluate. Although a move from NCAA Division II status to NCAA Division I AA status will increase the overall athletic operating budget. Would the potential in increased yearly revenue generated as a NCAA Division I AA member provide more revenue than the increased athletic operations budgets associated with NCAA Division I AA status?

All I am campaign for is this same formula be used and should be used, for an evaluation of a move from NCAA Division I AA status to NCAA Division I A status. No one has provided that information. Everyone just asumes the annual athletic budget will increase, which is true, but nobody seems to take in account that there is potential for the revenue generated from a move, too increase as well.

Note: Things such as television contracts. Every NCAA Division I A programs that has an equivalent or greater annual attendance ranking comparable to the SWAC has a television contract. This is one additional source of revenue potential for SWAC programs if we chose to operate at the NCAA Division I A level.

This such as a larger average guarantee payouts. When a team chooses to play a BCS member the average payout is about $300,000. a game.

The NCAA legislation on Classic and Bowl game payout.
The NCAA legislated a minimum guaranteed of $750,000 for games designated as Bowl or Classic contest. This would profile the current promoters of BCF Classic a measure stick on what our Classic games should be contractuallywritten for.

The NCAA legislation on NCAA Divisional status payouts.
The NCAA pays a different amount to programs as members of the NCAA based on the conference's and institution's designation of NCAA status affiliation.

I also disagree with your arguments that if a program is not a BCS member, then it is best to stay at the NCAA Division I AA level. That is the prevalent misleading thought about the BCS members and NCAA Division I A programs.

Many of the BCS NCAA Division I A programs do not operate their athletic programs with a profit they run an annual deficit, just like some non-BCS NCAA Division I A programs do operate their athletic programs with a profit andf not with a deficit. I am suggesting that BCS has little to do with whether a program can operate a successful program with a profit and without deficits, regardless of the NCAA Divisional status.

I agree that staying at the NCAA Division I AA level does not mean HBCU programs are stagnant, but not continually reviewing and investigating all options, in terms of an athletic programs NCAA Divisional status is stagnant. Just consider the fact that Tuskegee operates its athletic program as a NCAA Division II member and it has little to do with whether Tuskegee could operate its athletic program as a NCAA Division I AA member, but because the administration was stagnant in its ability to continually evaluate and investigate the entire feasibility and operations of the university?s system academic as well as athletic programs need for growth.

I am suggesting that a good solid business and operating athletic plan can be successful at any NCAA Divisional status. It is not the NCAA Divisional status that makes the athletic operational budget a plan and revenue generating mechanism, but it is the plan that makes the athletic operational budget a revenue generating mechanism that should determine NCAA Divisional status

 

[Maroon & Grey]

A view from the other side

A view from the white side

You think we have problems? Try these guys.

 

[Bigtyme69]

Bartram If it don't make dollars it don't make sense moving to d1 is a losing propostion La. is a perfect example Univ of La Lafayette , Monroe and La tech , Monroe was a d1aa powerhouse with a strong fanbase and when it jump to d1 they had to prostitue themselves because they couldn't get in a conference now there program is garbage. My point is like dominos all money ain't good money they thought they could make more doe and ended up losing there shirts. If your not top 61 their is no reason to go too d1 the NCAA is going to correct this next year lookout for 1aaa for the PV AND MVSU'S of the world and 1aa for the higher level HBCU'S and mid level PWC'S and 1a for the top 61 it coming soon.

 

[Blu Panther]

Bigtyme69,

Bartram If it don't make dollars it don't make sense moving to d1 is a losing propostion La. is a perfect example Univ of La Lafayette , Monroe and La tech , Monroe was a d1aa powerhouse with a strong fanbase and when it jump to d1 they had to prostitue themselves because they couldn't get in a conference now there program is garbage. My point is like dominos all money ain't good money they thought they could make more doe and ended up losing there shirts.

You point does not follow the logic of the arguements proposed for HBCU programs to seek NCAA Division I A status and is not a perfect example. Why would you give an example of a program that you stated, it had to indure its NCAA Division I A status, with no conference affiliation? Many of the individuals that have commented on HBCU and possible NCAA Division I A status have stated it would have to be in the form of at least five HBCU moving to NCAA Division I A status along with conference affilation.

If your not top 61 their is no reason to go too d1 the NCAA is going to correct this next year lookout for 1aaa for the PV AND MVSU'S of the world and 1aa for the higher level HBCU'S and mid level PWC'S and 1a for the top 61 it coming soon.

Even your top 61 comment does not ring ture and tell the whole story. Example: Was Marshall or Central Florida top 61 when they made they move to NCAA Division I A status.

You are making comment on things you have read over the internet. There hasn't been any substantial NCAA Division I Football Committee reports that have suggest that the NCAA will for a three teir (IA, IAA, IAAA) NCAA Division I format. I challenge you to post a legitimate reports that states other wise.

The only NCAA Division I Football Committee report have been about clarification for NCAA Division I A status (# of scholarships, # of and sports offered, # of actual attendance, & etc.) requirements for NCAA Division I status the remainder sports.

 

[Bigtyme69]

First of all my post was not meant to be an insult to PV OR MVSU but from a financal standpoint you are not competing. That being said my information comes from some friends that work with NCAA. I've been sports media for awhile so I have a few sources who will speak off the record with me. When Marshall moved it was a different time the organization that had been form by the top 61 had just been disolved ( I forget the name of the group) and thats what open the door for 1AA like Marshall to move up 1A besides Marshall was in a unique situition they were drawing 40,000 people anyway and had the best facilities of any 1AA or alot of
1A I've seen so that's apples and oranges. Can you name 5 HBCU's that are ready to be 1A really some are close but yet so far that even goes for SU, and population of school does not matter as you saw in earlier
post Notre Dame and Southern, are almost the same population around 10,000 people as oppose to SW Texas
who is 1AA but has 23,000 students according to there website. I responded to the original post not all post so err go my answers i do think some HBCU's are moving toward bigger things but I don't know if 1A is it because as one AD told me " prosituing your self for five games then beating up on each other is not my Idea of competing.

 

[Blu Panther]

Bigtyme69,

First of all my post was not meant to be an insult to PV OR MVSU but from a financal standpoint you are not competing.

I did not take your post as an insult . It is true from a financial standpoint Mississippi Valley State University and until recently neither has Prairie View A & M University.

That being said my information comes from some friends that work with NCAA. I've been sports media for awhile so I have a few sources who will speak off the record with me.

I am also in the sports media and I have not heard of such pedning mandates. Since you sources are off the record, it will be interesting to watch over the next couple of years to find out
how well informed your sources are.

When Marshall moved it was a different time the organization that had been form by the top 61 had just been disolved ( I forget the name of the group) and thats what open the door for 1AA like Marshall to move up 1A besides Marshall was in a unique situition they were drawing 40,000 people anyway and had the best facilities of any 1AA or alot of
1A I've seen so that's apples and oranges.

I disagree with some of your information, but I will not get into calling out every little error in your comments. But, for the sake of discussion even if we go with what you state as true. It still boils down to organizational planning.

I submit to you, these questions.

Are you submitting to this discussion that Marshall always had an attendance number of 40,000, while they where at the NCAA Division I AA level?

Are you submitting to this discussion that Marshall always had the best facilties of any NCAA Division I AA or a lot of NCAA Division I A programs?

If this is the case.

Are you then submitting that Marshall just up and decide to move one day from NCAA Division I AA to NCAA Division I A status, because they always averaged 40,000 and they had the best facilities of any NCAA Division I AA and a lot of NCAA Division I A programs?

Why was Marshall successful at the NCAA Division I AA level?

Why is Marshall successful at the NCAA Division I A level?

Can you name 5 HBCU's that are ready to be 1A really some are close but yet so far that even goes for SU,

Yes, my research shows five to seven Historically Black Colleges and Universities that have the attendance numbers, stadium capacity, with a couple of extra million dollars in their current athletic operating budgets; generated partially from revenue of a television contract, a well organized athletic foundation, and revenue payouts from Classic and Bowl games, as well as a viable 7 Year Strategic Plan could operate at the NCAA Division I A level.

and population of school does not matter as you saw in earlier post Notre Dame and Southern, are almost the same population around 10,000 people as oppose to SW Texas
who is 1AA but has 23,000 students according to there website.

I agree to some degree populations is not the sole reason a school should move to NCAA Division I A status.

I responded to the original post not all post so err go my answers i do think some HBCU's are moving toward bigger things but I don't know if 1A is it because as one AD told me " prosituing your self for five games then beating up on each other is not my Idea of competing.

I am not sure that I follow that athletic directors logic. Why would HBCU NCAA Division I A programs have to prostitute themselves for five game?

Is he suggesting that there are not any current regional NCAA Division I A programs (that HBCU NCAA Division I A programs with additional scholarships and slightly higher operating athletic budgets could) to compete against?

Would you be so kind to provide me with an example of a NCAA Division I A program that has a schedule that shows them prostituting themselves for five games during a season?

In the same light. Is not prostituting yourself to allow your program to play in classics that average over 40,000 people, while only receive payouts between ($100,000 - $250,000) and then beating up on each other his idea of competing?

Is this the same athletic director that requires his men's basketball team to schedule three, four, five to upperwards of seven big paydays as NCAA Division I basektball members?

 

[Bartram]

Personal asides.

Aqain, you don't address the real issue. I never said it could not be done, Southern can do it. You don't need to "be constantly challenging the school and finding ways to get around every obstacle " We know how to get around every obstacle. You talk like you are some super visionary because you can find a way to get around things. The main thing needed for SOuthern is money. We have enough but we got lots of things to spend it on besides D1A

No, you address your concerns. I address my point of view which is a fundamental change in phylosophy and way of thinking. I have no use for the issues from your end because if you continue to look at things from that standpoint you'll never do anything. Nothing there to me but why we can't infinitum. You and your crew will cover those well enough. I will be on the side that will push the envelope. As for your characterizations of me, if that's the way you see me,, whatever. Personal characterizations or neither here nor there as I see it. As for what yall spend it on, you win for now, but I hope someone there overrules your way of thinking one day.

Yes Shelt, I stand corrected on Skegee's size, but no matter, I think TU should be making the move. Again, I think we can say that indefinitely about the move to Div I-A. I am solidly on the other side that will continue to push for Div I-A.

 

[Bigtyme69]

Blu Marshall is in a unique sitiuation because they were 1A before a tragic plane crash killed a lot of there team resulting in the disbanding of the football program for a number of years during the 70's and early 80's when they brought football back they already had the foundation for a sucessful move too 1A after starting in 1AA for a five or six year period so yes Marshall did have the fan support and infrastructure to move quickly to 1A. On the other hand Central Florida came into existance in the mid-eighties when the state of Florida was making a push for all public schools with football to be 1A if you notice Famu and Bethune are 1AA they are
private or independent of the state. My referance to HBCU'S moving i meant with 5 years (my bad) but to say with a couple of million dollars and the other things you mention is a hugh step not to say it's not being done at some schools I kinda look to 2010 for some kinda move from these schools. UL monroe, UAB, AND UTEP whore themselves out along with several other schools. What the AD was saying is that most times mid-level PWC won't play Hbcu's simply because they recruit alot of the same players plus Pwc's greatest fear is that a Hbcu moves to 1A imagine A HBCU on a some what equal playing field recruiting black players alot more of the blue-chippers would be enrolling in the HBCU's just because of the atmosphere. Bobby Bowden, Nick Saban readily admit the use Famu and Southern to recruit black players. By the way I'm working on a book on College Football Maybe you could help.

 

[Blu Panther]

Bigtyme69,

Blu
Marshall is in a unique sitiuation because they were 1A before a tragic plane crash killed a lot of there team resulting in the disbanding of the football program for a number of years during the 70's and early 80's when they brought football back they already had the foundation for a sucessful move too 1A after starting in 1AA for a five or six year period so yes Marshall did have the fan support and infrastructure to move quickly to 1A.

I am relatively familiar with the history of the Marshall program. That is one reason, why I decide to choose them as the example that a NCAA Division I A move can be accomplished. I respectively disagree that when they brought football back they already had a foundation for a successful move too NCAA Division I A. This reaffirms my belief that if you have the organization, leadership, and strategic plan one can accomplish almost any goal.

In reality, Marshall had to start from the beginning. They had to start from the scratch. They did not have anything in place, but a belief, a dream and a "strategic plan" that when they decided to restart the football team at the club level and then to the NCAA Division I AA level, as they finally ascending to the NCAA Division I A level that they would provide the school, alumni and the community with a team they could be proud of.

On the other hand Central Florida came into existance in the mid-eighties when the state of Florida was making a push for all public schools with football to be 1A if you notice Famu and Bethune are 1AA they are private or independent of the state.

I remember this push. But, most of this was based on the fact that the state of Florida had a huge population and economic (technology & corporate head quarters) business growth. The enrollment, the president, and the adminstration, more than anything, is what drove Florida Tech now known as the University of Central Florida to seek interest in moving their athletic programs from NCAA Division III to NCAA Division I A/Division I status.

I understand that both Florida A & M University and Bethune-COokman college are currently reconized by the NCAA as NCAA Division I AA/Division I programs. But, so was University of Central Florida at the time you reference. They were regonized as a NCAA Division III program in 1979.

What do you mean Florida A & M University is independent of the state? I am not sure I follow you in regards to the comment.

My referance to HBCU'S moving i meant with 5 years (my bad) but to say with a couple of million dollars and the other things you mention is a hugh step not to say it's not being done at some schools I kinda look to 2010 for some kinda move from these schools.

Interesting. I am not suggesting that HBCU programs seek NCAA Division I A status next year. I have always suggested a study. I an not scene any evidence of a real study beening done to evaluate the options on whether a move from NCAA Division I AA to NCAA Division I A status has any merrit or a move from NCAA Division I AA to NCAA Division would have any merrit as well for that matter.

That is why I always stress the need for a strategic plan, this would provide us with an educated estimate on what type time frame and cost associated with a move, would it take HBCU NCAA Division I AA programs to make a successful move to NCAA Division I A status. But, if you never plan and evaluate a move today it surely will not just up and happen tomorrow.

UL monroe, UAB, AND UTEP whore themselves out along with several other schools.

Again I am not sure I agree that program like UAB and UTEP whore themselves out. In fact many of these programs often upset various NCAA Division I A BCS programs every year. These teams general only play two maybe three BCS programs a year I would suggest that this is not any more agrejest than the format that we play in low paying ($100,000-$250,000) Classics two or three times a year, taking games away from our home campus and season ticket holders.

What the AD was saying is that most times mid-level PWC won't play Hbcu's simply because they recruit alot of the same players plus Pwc's greatest fear is that a Hbcu moves to 1A imagine A HBCU on a some what equal playing field recruiting black players alot more of the blue-chippers would be enrolling in the HBCU's just because of the atmosphere.

I respectively disagree that these NCAA Division I A programs would not play a HBCU NCAA Division I A programs. They would play HBCU NCAA Division I A programs for the simple fact that they believe they can win as well as they would enjoy the revenue generated by the large traveling fan support that is infamous for the larger and more established HBCU NCAA Division I AA programs. In fact they already play HBCU NCAA Division I AA programs i.e. Southern vs. Tulane, Grambling State vs. Louisville, Texas at El Paso, Jackson State vs. Southern Mississippi, Florida A & M vs. Miami and etc. But, because of the NCAA designation they are able to pay the HBCU NCAA Division I AA programs significantly less than a NCAA Division I A status program as well as dictate many of the terms of contracted arrangements, i.e. playing the came at their home vacility instead of a home and home contract.

Bobby Bowden, Nick Saban readily admit the use Famu and Southern to recruit black players.

Again I am amazed that everytime that an individual brings up a possible move for several HBCU programs from NCAA Division I AA status to NCAA Division I A status everybody automatically thinks that we are wanting to compete against the NCAA Division I A BCS programs right away. That is not what this about. It is about evaluating the entire landscape of NCAA football and the role it plays in our community and on our HBCU institutions in regards to national exposure and economic development.

By the way I'm working on a book on College Football Maybe you could help.

Iam willing and I would be interesting in helping you with you book on College Football.

 

[Taylor-Made'90]

Does anybody know/remember this?

Originally posted by Bigtyme69
Can you name 5 HBCU's that are ready to be 1A really some are close but yet so far......

Back in '92, a proposal was made at the NCAA Conference Meetings that would've reduced the number of football scholarships at the D-1AA level. As a result, there was a lot of discussion among D-1AA member school (Black and White) involved around how to fight and defeat the proposal. I think the proposal called for a reduction of 11 or 12 football scholarships, or something close to that. Anyway, the general sentiment among D-1AA schools was that a reduction in scholarships would translate into a lower talent level of football competition, therefore hurting the already-delicate state of affairs in D-1AA football.

Anyway, there were a series of Conference calls initiated and moderated by then JSU AD Walter Reed, involving several SWAC and MEAC school Presidents and ADs. The schools involved were Jackson State, Southern, Grambling, Alabama State, FAMU, South Carolina State and TennState....The conference calls discussed the idea of applying for admission into D-1A. As a unit. The initial idea Walter Reed had, called for all seven schools to look into the feasibility of trying to move to D-1A in order to not lose any scholarships, and not lessen the level of competition amongst the schools. The basic NCAA D-1A requirements were matched up against all seven schools. It was already known and accepted that the financial support would not be forthcoming, and that some allowances would have to be made, thus the 'unit' idea. But, based on the Atheltic Budget, stadium capacity, sports offered (Title-IX) and other issues, it became clear that all seven schools couldn't qualify (as a unit) for admission into D-1A. There would have to be major investments into the Athletic infrastructures at some schools to be able to be compliant within 6 six years, as was the current D-1A Compliance Rule.....It was found that too many 'Waivers' would be needed for all seven to gain admission. That, along with a perceived 'threat' from SWAC Commish James Frank, to ban future competition with the remaning SWAC teams, killed the idea.....But the idea was ultimately defeated when the propsal was defeated at the '92 NCAA Fall Conference.....The Pac-10, Moutain West and WAC ADs voted against the measure, securing the defeat.

But, as a result of those meetings, it was determined then (in '92) that only two schools out of the seven would qualify without having to apply for any of the major 'Waivers'. And those two schools were Jackson State and Alabama State. The other schools would've all had to apply for waivers in regards to Stadium Capacity, and other Structural Improvements. Meaning, that they would have to submit Master Plans(with secured funding) to expand or renovate their Current stadiums to meet the D-1A requirement of at least 25,000 seats, with a certain number of press parking credentials and pressbox space, and something about the number of accessible toilets (It was real specific). And back then, only Veteran Stadium and Crampton Bowl qualified.....

But had this happened then, the lack of financial and institutional infrastructure would've been glaringly obvious. And while I wanted JSU to go D-1A back in '92, I'm glad they didn't. We weren't prepared for it then. And I don't really think any of our HBCUs are any more prepared for it today.......

And that's the issue I see, in regards to HBCUs jumping to D-1A. We aren't nearly as prepared as we would need to be.......But as long as we recognize this, and work to get prepared, then there will be a day when we can say that we ARE prepared...And then, we'll make that next step......But not until then, please not until then..........

 

[Bigtyme69]

Let the Church say AMEN I remember that also in 1989 JSU with the help of COCA COLA put together a plan to move to 1A along with Southern and Grambling I have it at home I will try to post some of it. Thanks Taylor for the reminder.




BLU what i meant about FAMU being independent is they are not run by the state but they are not private either they recieve some state funds but most money comes from self generation or the feds that's why FAMU can do some things academically that state schools can't

 

[Blu Panther]

Taylor-Made'90,

Thanks for the informative dialogue of information. I remember this as well, but I have not been lucky enough get my hands on this information to read it from a historical perspective.

Bigtyme69,

Let the Church say AMEN I remember that also in 1989 JSU with the help of COCA COLA put together a plan to move to 1A along with Southern and Grambling I have it at home I will try to post some of it. Thanks Taylor for the reminder.

I would like to receive this information, so I can read it and evaluate it as well. Again, I remember this as well, but I have not been lucky enough get my hands on this information to read it from a historical perspective. Is there anyway I can get a copy of the material?

BLU what i meant about FAMU being independent is they are not run by the state but they are not private either they recieve some state funds but most money comes from self generation or the feds that's why FAMU can do some things academically that state schools can't

As Jafus (Thinker) would say, "Interesting Comments!!". I must admit I was not aware that Florida A & M University was not funded primarily through the state of Florida and that most of their money is funded from the federal government. If this is the case, then you are correct it would make a difference while evaulating the ability of HBCU NCAA Division I A status in this discussion.