A non-partisan question on HBCUs and Div I-A

[Bartram]

Why haven't the largest HBCUs made the move to Div I-A football? I find it pretty disgusting to see the likes of Troy State making the move, Rice already there and countless others who now have smaller campus populations than many of the largest HBCUs.

Could the likes of Southern, FAMU, Jackson State and TennState (maybe Grambling, but I don't know the campus population there) make the transition? Alabama State gave it a shot, but that was doomed from the start, in hind-sight, seemingly because of in-fighting over fiefdoms(or whatever), but what if there was a concerted, serious effort by an HBCU to go div I-A; could it happen and be successful?

I know at least Southern and FAMU have campus populations as large or larger than many of these lower tier PWCs, winning traditions and hardcore fan followings. Why haven't they seriously considered the move?

This has got to happen sooner or later and I would think much sooner than later.

 

[Lewis]

It seems like every month or so someone brings this topic back up in one form or another. But this is the place for discussion so to me in a nutshell, right now HBCU's want to play in a HBCU conference (tradition and all that). There are not enough HBCU's that can make the leap to make a viable conference that would be better than what's in place. Finnally, except saying "We are D1A" what's the advantage of it, 'cause unlike them other schools, we make our money from classics and high attendance and to do that it doesn't matter if we are D1A or D1AA or D2. In fact, the lower requirements for D1AA makes it cheaper.

 

[Bartram]

Complacency, Evolution?

right now HBCU's want to play in a HBCU conference (tradition and all that).

Point well taken. I think that is central to the issue.

There are not enough HBCU's that can make the leap to make a viable conference that would be better than what's in place.

This too is a good point IF the goal is to instantly have a Div I-A HBCU conference, but with that line of reasoning, when will HBCUs ever make the jump? That could take 15-25 years to have enough HBCUs to instantly form a 10 or even 8 team HBCU Div I-A conference

Finnally, except saying "We are D1A" what's the advantage of it,

Strictly in terms of the bottom line which you address in your next observation, probably not any big advantages, but in terms of constantly striving to grow, evolve, grow athletic budgets, expand stadiums, attract even more fans and not be content with languishing at the Div I-AA level, moving to the next level is only natural especially if you have the means to do it. Plus too, you would have 30 are so more scholarships times, lets say 8 HBCUs, for athletes at HBCUs.

we make our money from classics and high attendance and to do that it doesn't matter if we are D1A or D1AA or D2. In fact, the lower requirements for D1AA makes it cheaper.

This is the existing paradigm that we work under, tis true, but I would think that at one time the same could be said being at lower levels. So one day when Southern and FAMU have on campus enrollments of 20K-25K, they will still be content to be playing in the SWAC/MEAC at the Div I-AA level, competing against schools half to 1/8 their size? That just doesn't seem like a natural progression to me, but then, maybe as you point out, they make/are making a conscious decision to remain within the realm of the SWAC/MEAC/HBCU Div I-AA. If that's the case, then there is nothing much to be said except that maybe one day an HBCU(TNState could be the early example doing well even though they are not directly associated with an HBCU conference) will defy the odds and then the paradigm will change as HBCUs follow suite. It always takes unlikely senarios to effect a shift in thinking, a shift in the accepted norms.

 

[Mr. SWAC]

Re: Complacency, Evolution?

Originally posted by Bartram
So one day when Southern and FAMU have on campus enrollments of 20K-25K, they will still be content to be playing in the SWAC/MEAC at the Div I-AA level, competing against schools half to 1/8 their size? That just doesn't seem like a natural progression to me, but then, maybe as you point out, they make/are making a conscious decision to remain within the realm of the SWAC/MEAC/HBCU Div I-AA.

The day that SU and FAMU reach that enrollment, don't you think the other HBCUs in the conference will not be far behind?

 

[Sonic98]

1. Does the conference really have to be all black? Couldn't we take 8 HBCUs and 2 PWC 1-AA schools up to 1-A and for a conference. I think it would make it easier for the conference to get games against wanted opponents because it would be obvious to everyone if they kept making games with the 2 PWC and not the other 8 schools in the conference. Plus, as far as exposure and improving the overall quality and standards of our teams, I don't think us just beating up on each other every year is of benefit. I think the TnSU program has benefited from the conference they're in. It's just like an NFL team that beats up on a weak division all season, then can't raise thier game to the level of others come playoff time.


2. For No.1 to work, we'd have to find 8 HBCU that could make the move. I am not sure that is possible. It would have to be based on population, strength of program, popularity, and attendance. We could only afford the bring the best schools and the best potential seat packers. I can see SU, JSU, FAMU, and TnSU making the move. GSU could make the move now that thier program has returned to being respectable. We'd still need 3 more schools. What other 3 schools can pack the stands? SU, JSU, and GSU are pretty much it when it comes to popularity in the SWAC. Perhaps one of the Alabama schools? Alabama State's Popularity can only grow with the improvement. If they can only get thier band back, they can be a potential big crowd draw. AAMU also has a decent band and competed for a SWAC title themselves. As for the MEAC, who else can attract people other than FAMU, maybe NC A&T? I don't think Howard and Hampton can really filled the shoes we need filled. Maybe BCC can attract a crowd. And there is no use in even thinking about bands from the other conferences.

3. If this does take place, the remaining system will be in shambles. There will probably be 1 less conference in 1-AA because schools will have to move over to the SWAC and MEAC to fill the positions the former schools left behind.

 

[Sonic98]

After reading the thread about 1-AA stadium sizes, maybe TxSU could be one of the "elite 8"

 

[Lewis]

but with that line of reasoning, when will HBCUs ever make the jump? That could take 15-25 years to have

And what's wrong with that. HBCU's got tons of things way more important than that to be concerned about.<br><br>

So one day when Southern and FAMU have on campus enrollments of 20K-25K

I really doubt that either would get that big. They have been arount 10K for a long time. But that don't really matter. Right now, look at Southern 10K, Grambling 5K, but who cares when the game starts. I think Valley is smallest school in the Swac ~2.5K but who cares. Take the Big 10, Northwestern and Univ. Of Mighigan<br><br>

but in terms of constantly striving to grow, evolve, grow athletic budgets, expand stadiums, attract even more fans and not be content with languishing at the

We can do all that at the D1AA level at a cheaper cost. Right now D1AA is a good fit for most HBCU, and D1A would be a unnecesary reach just so a few people can post about it on a message board.<br><br>

After reading the thread about 1-AA stadium sizes, maybe TxSU could be one of the "elite 8"

Robertson Staduim is really the University of Houston home stadium so it's capacity has little to do with TSU. It is one thing to have seats, another to fill them. TSU is still trying to be competive in the SWAC (no smack intended) but they are definatly not ready to move up.

 

[Fiyah]

Why are people so hot on jumping to D1A? It only affects the HBCU's in football only. We are D1 in every other sport, we can hold our own in football just as well in D1AA. It wouldn't suprise me that another division for football be made up when all those other D1A schools that won't make the new qualifications and then we can move into that division as a whole conferance. We hold our own in attendance and we will continue to do that without those PWC's.

 

[SAME OLD G]

Here we go again with this topic. Everyone is bringing up points that have nothing to do with going to D-1A.

Tell me this. What does school enrollment have to do with going to D-1A? What does a fan base have to do with it? What does stadium saze have to do with it?

I can answer all three questions with one word....Nothing!

The most important thing that is needed to play football on a D-1 level is money. And right now, none of the above schools mentioned have the cash to make that step. Why do you think Bama State really failed at making this step. I don't know all of the ins and outs of that story, but the dumbest thing Bama State did was to piss off Donald Watkins. I'm sorry, but when a self made billionare provides you with the blueprints needed to get to that next level, who are you to question him on if can or can't be done. But that is another issue.

Wake Forest is the second smallest school in the nation to field a D-1A football team. Its enrollment is something like 5,000, but it is in the ACC. So it has nothing to do with enrollment. It is all about money.

And like someone said earlier. Once you get to D-1 what are you going to do? If you aint apart of the BCS, than it is really a waste of time.

 

[Lewis]

And like someone said earlier. Once you get to D-1 what are you going to do? If you aint apart of the BCS, than it is really a waste of time.

Very good statement. A few years ago we debated this topic and I looked up the info and there only about 6 D1A schools that made more that Southern and FAMU that were not BCS and 3 were the service acadamies. All you can do as a lower tier D1A school is to schedule a few thrashing for money, (like go to Nebraska with no return date). Sure you will make some money, but what does that really do for your program. To really be more successful than we are now, we would have to be BCS and that ain't gonna happen.

 

[SoloMan]

Originally posted by SAME OLD G
Wake Forest is the second smallest school in the nation to field a D-1A football team. Its enrollment is something like 5,000, but it is in the ACC. So it has nothing to do with enrollment. It is all about money.

I'm not sure but Duke maybe even smaller. I know at one time their enrollment was around 2500.

 

[Bartram]

Ideological battle.

Some how, some day, this must be pushed beyond the ideological battle of rather or not to "stay true to the cause", "we can do alright among ourselves/we don't need to be with the PWCs to get respect", "we can do just fine where we are", on and on and on. I would not argue that some of those are not legitimate points. I can, however, see these thoughts having been the same any time the conferences/schools were faced with potential changes like this.

To say that HBCUs will stay forever at 10K is incredible. What if that was said when the school was at 5K? To that end on "what does size have to do with it", I'd say quit a bit even though, as was said, money is the basic foundation. The larger your on-campus population the larger the exposure to fans and potential students; it's eaier selling your school to potential recruits. The larger the fan base the more people, naturally, that potentially come to the games.

To the point on colleges being roughly the same size; I think some schools can more readily increase their numbers than others. Private vs state for example, so I would not say that the majority of schools would keep up in pop growth. 4-6 schools could though.

Great observation, however, on Watkins coming to the table with loot. I say if a Watkins equivalent hatches this plan at SU, FAMU, TNState or Jackson State and maybe NCA&T, we are looking at the first HBCU in transition to Div I-A right now and the SWAC page is abuze with the move.

I would agree that thee may be a "middle ground" of sorts if the NCAA mandates kick in and filter out the Troy States, Marshals and Florida Atlantics of the world, but from the inertia that seems to be inherant in the mindset of the HBCUs, that probably won't be an option either. Still, that would be an interesting mix of HBCUs and PWCs.

As for the potential devastation of the conferences, that may be the case for conference "pureists" but it would only give other schools the opportunity to grow and move up, again the theme of constant change, evolution, growth in effect as opposed to remaining the same indefinitely and being satisfied with the status quo. Granted the "stay div I-AA" inertia is much like that of the "keep the BCS bowl system" vs a playoff system in Division I-A; hard to impossible to move.

 

[Lewis]

Bartram<br>You just seemed really obsessed with this D1A thing. There is no reason to change just to change. <br>

To say that HBCUs will stay forever at 10K is incredible.

First, no one said for ever. But the fact is the pool of availaible students is not growing that fast. And here in Baton Rouge, we now have a Communitity college that is also attracking students. You gave a figure of 20-25K which is more than double the number of students now. THAT WOULD BE INCREDIBLE. Maybe in a few years, Southern may grow to 11K or maybe 12K, but not double.

again the theme of constant change, evolution, growth in effect as opposed to remaining the same indefinitely and being satisfied with the status quo.

You act like the only way to grow is going D1A but that is totally false. There are lots of ways to change and grow that are a lot more sensible at this time. This is not about changing, evolution, growth or being satisfied with status quo. You are just stuck on D1A and it ain't gonna happen and there ain't nothing wrong with it.

 

[majiksity]

It amazes me that people are still falling for Donald Watkins and his mouth game. He is not a 'billionaire'. He now says Oprah is one of his partners in attempting to buy the Angels.

Listen, as much as I dislike DW, I wish him well in his attempt to buy a pro team, that would be a great feat. But DW game is to put his name out so he can be mentioned as a "player". Look at how much coverage he has gotten (again I am not hating on that) with this attempt to by a MLB team. He says MLB knows his finances - cool. With all the financial trouble some of the teams are having, don't you think he would be included someway? Part of it is racial - but these owners want to make money also and if a Black man, Purple man, Green Woman- whatever it is - is going to put additional money in their pockets, they dont care what color you are.

Going D1 for HBCU football - for the last time - is a waste of time unless ALL D1-AA teams are moving up. As for playing PWC - when HBCU's play PWC the crowds suck. People keep mentioning TnST and the OVC - TnSt largest crowds are when they play HBCU's. And when we do play PWC - we tend to impact their crowd at home - i e Alabama State/Troy State - but when they have to return the trip they do not bring people out.

HBCU games are more than just a football game - it is a social event. We want to see the game, see the women, see the bands, find out about the after set, and set up to do it again the next week. We dont have that kind of atmosphere when PWC's are involved.

D1 would afford us the opportunity to play in a bowl game - all the bowls have conf tie ins - and you know our conference power ratings would be low - so that is nil. I dont want to go and play for a payday - but have Stuart Scott making jokes about how we should have had 'Ray Ray, Pookie and 'nem' helping us try to beat Miami, Notre Dame and the likes......

And let's also realize this too - we are D1 in Basketball, Baseball and every other sport....what love do we get from the powers that be of "D1-land" in those sports?

So what is the benefit?

 

[Deuce]

majik,

I agree with most of what you said . . . except the part about the green woman. LOL. :emlaugh: :emlaugh: :emlaugh:

 

[pbla]

Will every one please take note of Same old G post

posted by Same Old G

The most important thing that is needed to play football on a D-1 level is money.

I commented about this topic on another post. I am saying the same thing Same Old G says, it takes money and more money for D1A football. Again I say,FANS and COPORATE SPONSORS help fund D1A football along with TV contracts. There is no" if and buts about it", 2+2 WILL always equal four,D1A football will always need a hell of a lot of cash flow for support.

What really hurt the HBCU'S move to D1A are the attitudes of our people on going to football games, some in community always say "it's to many of us at the games" or "it 's always trouble when you get bunch of *****hz together, so I ain't going". If attitudes like that hold fast, then HBCU'S will NEVER make the move to D1A.

 

[Lewis]

pbla, I agree with you to a certain extent, but fans do come out for HBCU football. I think the real big difference is most HBCU Fans will pay $20 for a ticket but won't donate $500 to the athletic dept to build facilities and fund the types of things it takes to compete in D1A. HBCU's don't get the private support, the big money donations.

 

[pbla]

D1A

You are right Lewis, most HBCU'S don't get that private support. I have always wondered how Rice University in Houston can sustain a D1A program when it's season attendance record is real low, even for a D1AA program. Rice university has rich alumni, which some own major corporations, they can give money to their school. Also, Rice is located in Houston, I know a lot of those private corporations that are in Houston help fund the schools athletic programs. IF THOSE BUSINESSES WERE SMART, THEY COULD HELP FUND TEXAS SOUTHERN'S PROGRAM. That would look good for a city to have 3 D1A programs when you count the University of Houston.
Here in Arkansas, those damn Razorbacks have the Razorback Foundation, whose members are in the top fortune 500, members like the Waltons( Wal-Mart), the Dillard's (Dillard Dept. Stores,) Alltel coropotation and "whole lot of ole money" members. The Foundation has the state divided into districts, each district has business members that give to those "mofo's" every year. The Waltons just 3 month's ago gave 300 million dollars to the school. The Razorback foundation got more money than "I don't know what"! The Razorbacks new stadium was help financed by Reynolds Aluminum and of course the Waltons. The stadium cost $110,000,000 dollars to build. They had 30 million dollars left over to spare!! The football fans pay $30 dollars a ticket, and the majority of them purchase season tickets!! One day we will reach that level of financial support.

 

[LaMont]

Sorry to disagree, but

it's the symbol that an HBCU can play football at the higest level. So much of the recruiting deficit is caused by the fact that kids want to play D-1A football. If we had one team, they would become a national symbol and a large draw - either on the road or at home. They wouldn't have to schedule themselves out as sacrificial lambs because of their unique standing, they'll draw at least 45,000 fans each week.

I still think it's worth the move and it's important to show that an HBCU can "play ball" at the highest level and compete with anyone.

Well, that's my $0.02.

LaMont

 

[majiksity]

LaMont, just because a HBCU were to be 1A - that doesnt mean jack in recruting kids - if the team is not winning. I mean if it were that simple - that black recruits would come to a HBCU just because it is 1A - then the same could almost be said that a black recruit would go only to D1 schools with black coaches - I mean if your theory is that these black kids are going to come to a D1 HBCU due to their 'black heritage'.

The black kids that go to D1 schools - their main reason is exposure and TV. That would not change with an HBCU goin to D1 - where is the TV contract? Even if it were done (the move to D1) as a group, it still would be a small regional TV contract -if that.

All things being EQUAL - funding, resources, etc - I have no doubt that HBCU's could play with D1 - but all thangs aint and wont be equal - again look at our current D1 sports? Where is the exposure for us in BBall? Funding? Resources. And going back to your point - our Basketball and other sports ARE D1 - where are all of the Black recruits? Jason (Damn that Jay crap) Wiliams, Drew Goodson.......Well?

 

[Taylor-Made'90]

I know it's been said before, but I'll say it again.

The biggest thing holding HBCUs back, in regards to moving to D1A football, is financial support. Not only from the institution, but from alumni and the community. Until we start to support our schools on the level of some of the PWCs, we're fooling ourselves thinking we can compete. I know whenever any HBCU gets a $10,000.00 donation, it's national news.....But the fact of the matter is, that a 10k donation at most PWCs doesn't get any press. So we have to continue to give, and keep giving until it hurts. And even then, give some more. Because if we don't support our HBCUs, how we expect anybody else to? True, most HCBUs started off as small private Teaching Colleges, funded by whites sympathetic to the Negro cause. And we're always grateful for their support. They helped put the train on the track, and in some cases, got the train rolling. But we've got to do the rest. We've got to keep the train rolling, and rolling with speed. That's where the breakdown is.

And why is it that we (blacks) complain about ticket prices? And parking. I hate going to a JSU home game, and seeing people park all over the Fondren neighborhood, because they're too cheap to pay the measly $4 for Stadium parking. That burns me up. And then they still complain about the $20 ticket prices. They don't realize that $20 is cheap, when compared to other football ticket prices. Try going to a Univ of Texas game with only $20. You won't even get close to getting a ticket. You might pay $20 just to park. It irks me that we can decide to go to the Bayou Classic, rent a Caddy or a Lincoln ($300-400bucks), get a hotel room anywhere in N.O. ($150/night), eat out all weekend and shop ($400) and then complain about the football ticket price!!!!!!


Now, as far as school enrollment numbers go, HBCU enrollment in general will never reach large numbers until we can lessen our reliance on Federal Student Loans and Financial Aid. We have to be more creative in finding ways to send our kids to schools. Too many of our kids depend soley on FSL and FFA. Whereas our PWCs have created hundreds of options for paying for tuition. There are thousands of Grant Programs (that don't have to be paid back) out there, just waiting for us. But too few of us even know they exist. And our HBCUs can't make strides forward if the bulk of their tuition income comes from Uncle Sam...Why? Because Uncle Sam doesn't give the school the money when school starts. They wait until at least the 45th day of the semester before they send a dime. That means that the school has to figure out how to make-do and survive until the money comes. PWCs don't have this problem. They have enough Endownment or Foundation money to not necessarily have to rely on Uncle Sam money. They can operate independently.

HBCUs face serious challenges in the 21st century. And we must continue to produce and maintain a level of excellence, even in the face of dwindling tax dollars, and less budgetary funding. So going D1A isn't even really on the radar......

Not now. Probably not then either.....


Besides, why would you want to go to D1A when you know you don't have to tools to be competitive. That's an insult to the kids, the coaches and the institutions, if they know they don't have the thinks needed to be able to compete. Let's face it. An HBCU Athletic budget of 1.5 million doesn't compete with Notre Dame's 9 million dollar Football budget.......Ain't no way....

 

[Bartram]

Some (two) points T-M 90 made

Of all of the anti-Div I-A move commentary, this is the only one that has any causes of substance that is the real issue as to why it has not happened:

#1.

Not only from the institution, but from alumni and the community. Until we start to support our schools on the level of some of the PWCs, we're fooling ourselves thinking we can compete.

#2.

And why is it that we (blacks) complain about ticket prices? And parking. I hate going to a JSU home game, and seeing people park all over the Fondren neighborhood, because they're too cheap to pay the measly $4 for Stadium parking. That burns me up. And then they still complain about the $20 ticket prices. They don't realize that $20 is cheap, when compared to other football ticket prices.

These reasons I would acknowledge, but not all this other none-sense about what HBCUs can't do and why HBCUs should be content and comfortable.

Further, parting from general agreement with those items, I would contend that going in with the attitude that you automatically can't compete is not the approach that should be taken. I think every college, no matter HBCU or PWC, when making a move up is initially at some kind of disadvantage. That's the nature of almost everything in this country. You mean to tell me,, you pledge a frat/soro and you gone just walk right in and be the top $hit from the start???? No, but that doesn't disuade you from taking the chance. Dido that for just about every big move or significant change in any endevour in life. Totally different view on that one.

I think that with the growing affluency of black society in general, fan support, monitary support and even black philanthropy will grow to the point where there will be the financial resources to make the next move. If not,,, it will be a testiment to us as supporters of our respective colleges, especially those of us who go on to become wealthy and successful after college.

 

[Bartram]

To LaMont's comments,,,

It's funny that there has always been a gradual accent to the next level,,, except now. What's up with that? Every college worth their salt has strived to move to the next level; from Div III-A, to Div II-A, to Div I-AA. Why in the world is Div I-AA the perverbial "glass ceiling" for only HBCUs????? This is none-sense!

I view this mentality the same as Birmingham, for example, depending totally on the steel industry and a one industry economy in the 1960s and not striving to constantly evolve and diversify.

HBCUs could languish at the Div I-AA ranks in our own little world and eek out an existance, but we would not have done all that we could do and we would not be competing fully in the real sports world of college football.

How in the heck can we sit here and have all these kids go to the PWCs because of their size and obvious road to the NFL when HBCUs, at the same level, would be Div I-A, PLUS have all the social/black college intangibles to attract athletes and generate even more exposure at this level?

Regardless,, some HBCUs are slowly but surely pushing the envelop. We are now seeing the likes of FAMU and some others put Div I-A oppents on the schedule in some cases and it's becoming a yearly event. Good for them I say,,, especially when they beat these clowns despight what everyone says they "can't do".

 

[Lewis]

Bartam, I said way back on this thread that HBCU's do not get the private support that D1A schools do. THat is the biggest thing right there. You claim that it "none-sense " because you don't agree. You just don't want to accept the truth, that it is not really feasible now for an HBCU, and it is not that important. No one here has said it will "never" happen, but not now with the current setup with the current support that we get. No one disagrees that we should not have ambition. But we also gotta use good judgement and good sense. Not try to move up like a bull in a china cabinet. <br>There are a lot more important things for HBCU's right now than going D1A in football. HBCU's have limited resources and must use good judgement as to where to invest them. This may be news to you, but football ain't the only thing or the most important thing at an HBCU. It's like saying, we are going to have the best Computer Science Dept in the nation. Well good idea, but when you take all your money to try to do that (and you still won't be able to top..outspend.. most of those big PWC) but in trying to do so, the money had to come from somewhere, now you took money out of your Engineering, Chemistry, etc. Sometimes you just gotta use good judgement, and balance what's most important.<br>Finally, the D1A schools (NCAA) doesn't want to see any more schools "move up". They are looking into changing things. At this point, it would probably be smart to see how these issues are going to be resolved.

 

[Bartram]

More of the same

Lewis, your position and comments are clear, however our bottom phylosophies are in divergence. I think it is clear we will continue to look at this from totally different views with my bottom line being constantly striving to evolve, striving for constant improvement, HBCUs not being satisfied to languish at Div I-AA and yours being what it is. There are some truths like the issues pointed out above, but there are also bottom line phylosophies. Ours are are in total opposition and will remain that way forever or until the day HBCUs make the transition.

Also HBCUs have problems in other areas certainly hasn't stopped us from wooping it up and delving into extracurricular activities thus far, so that as an excuse not to go forward I fundamentally disagree with also. In a sense you are right about one thing, I refuse to except your and other's bottomline way of thinking when it comes to this issue and I will not change my phylosophy on this issue just because there are obstacles that you and the other folks point out. There are obstacles in every major endevour, with the biggest one here being US, black folks, HBCU grads not putting our money where our mouth is. That will change as the largest schools have more success and the critical mass of second and third generation graduates grows.

Also, there seems to be an automatic assumption that any move to Div I-A would be a whole SWAC (or MEAC) move. I don't think that's the original point. It would be one school at a time; either a FAMU, a Southern or a Jackson State.

Lastly, if everyone "excepted the truth" as you say, and dropped everything and fell in line with the existing norms/ways of thinking, we'd never get anything accomplished and there would never be innovation, so to that point, on phylosophies, you are right, I do not and never will accept the general anti-div I-A phylosophy on this one.