60 million dollar stadium shut down

[JAG89]

Let me ask yall a question. In situations like this after it is decided who was liable or at fault, what type of punishment usually takes place? Fines, penalties, non payment for work etc.

The biggest fine would be to take away the companies business license where it can't operate as a business and do work, but I have seen where individuals have gone to jail. One of the ways the owners can recoup the money to fix the problems would be to require the company's insurance to pay for the repairs.

 

[HORNETSWARM]

The biggest fine would be to take away the companies business license where it can't operate as a business and do work, but I have seen where individuals have gone to jail. One of the ways the owners can recoup the money to fix the problems would be to require the company's insurance to pay for the repairs.

OK, I got ya.

 

[SUJagFan]

The biggest fine would be to take away the companies business license where it can't operate as a business and do work, but I have seen where individuals have gone to jail. One of the ways the owners can recoup the money to fix the problems would be to require the company's insurance to pay for the repairs.

Right.

If the contractor didn't follow the plans or did substandard work, he's going to be sued and he's going to lose. The judge is going to award the owners an amount to repair or replace the facility. The judge may even tack on a hefty penalty. The insurance company will pay up to their limit of liability and the contractor will be responsible for the rest. The rates on the contractor's insurance policy are going to go through the roof if he can get coverage at all. In many states, proof of insurance is required to renew your license. Proof of insurance is required in almost all contracts. In commercial construction, if you don't have insurance you don't have a business. If you don't have a license and can't enter into a contract because you don't have insurance, then you might as well go home.

Not to mention the possibility of jail time.

I'm sure the same is true if the engineers were negligent.

 

[jag4life]

No one will get jail time because no one was hurt. I doubt the company will lose any licenses either. This is Texas...They MIGHT get fined. I think the owner of that fertilizer plant in West, TX still hasn't paid any fines.

 

[SUJagFan]

No one will get jail time because no one was hurt. I doubt the company will lose any licenses either. This is Texas...They MIGHT get fined. I think the owner of that fertilizer plant in West, TX still hasn't paid any fines.

The question was what type of things COULD happen ....

Injury is not the only reason a contractor can be sent to jail.

Here's a link to the Louisiana State Licensing Board for Contractors Violations page. LINK It has Residential and Commercial contractor violations going back to 2006. Just randomly clicking links, in February 2013 Commercial Violations there were three pages of violations and on the first page alone they revoked three licenses. So ... yeah ... it's possible to lose a license. Just as financial penalties and jail time are also possible. And if an insurer has to pay for something like this, you should know that they will jack up your rates if not drop the policy altogether. Try getting new insurance after being dropped for causing an insurer to pay a multimillion dollar claim. It won't be easy.

 

[Fiyah]

I've been saying bad design since page 1. LOL

Texas Architecture Firm Says $60M High School Stadium not Flawed

An architecture company says extensive cracking at a $60 million Texas high school football stadium is not the result of flaws in its design, according to a newspaper report published on March 1.

Houston-based PBK Architects told The Dallas Morning News that the cracks in the concourse are “shrink cracks” that can be repaired and don’t threaten the stadium’s structural integrity.

“We do not feel this is a design issue,” PBK partners Fred Montes and Irene Nigaglioni told the newspaper. They vowed to “stand behind the interests of Allen ISD long after the construction of a project is complete.”

PBK’s final report is pending, as are the results of an engineering investigation by Nelson Forensics, a firm hired by the school district.

Ben Pogue, president and CEO of Pogue Construction, which built the stadium, said cracks in concrete are common. He said his firm was working with the district and its own subcontractors to review the issue and devise solutions.

Link to whole story

 

[jag4life]

Texas Architecture Firm Says $60M High School Stadium not Flawed

An architecture company says extensive cracking at a $60 million Texas high school football stadium is not the result of flaws in its design, according to a newspaper report published on March 1.

Houston-based PBK Architects told The Dallas Morning News that the cracks in the concourse are “shrink cracks” that can be repaired and don’t threaten the stadium’s structural integrity.

“We do not feel this is a design issue,” PBK partners Fred Montes and Irene Nigaglioni told the newspaper. They vowed to “stand behind the interests of Allen ISD long after the construction of a project is complete.”

PBK’s final report is pending, as are the results of an engineering investigation by Nelson Forensics, a firm hired by the school district.

Ben Pogue, president and CEO of Pogue Construction, which built the stadium, said cracks in concrete are common. He said his firm was working with the district and its own subcontractors to review the issue and devise solutions.

Link to whole story

Thats the company that designed it right? We will see the investigation reports.

 

[JAG89]

Texas Architecture Firm Says $60M High School Stadium not Flawed

An architecture company says extensive cracking at a $60 million Texas high school football stadium is not the result of flaws in its design, according to a newspaper report published on March 1.

Houston-based PBK Architects told The Dallas Morning News that the cracks in the concourse are “shrink cracks” that can be repaired and don’t threaten the stadium’s structural integrity.

“We do not feel this is a design issue,” PBK partners Fred Montes and Irene Nigaglioni told the newspaper. They vowed to “stand behind the interests of Allen ISD long after the construction of a project is complete.”

PBK’s final report is pending, as are the results of an engineering investigation by Nelson Forensics, a firm hired by the school district.

Ben Pogue, president and CEO of Pogue Construction, which built the stadium, said cracks in concrete are common. He said his firm was working with the district and its own subcontractors to review the issue and devise solutions.

Link to whole story

Sounds like the concrete cured too fast, which caused it to dehydrate rapidly. If the stadium was built during the summer months where the temperatures were in the upper 90's or 100's, then other precautionary measures should have been considered. When temperatures get too high to pour concrete the standard way, the contractor should reschedule all concrete pours for an earlier or later time when it is cooler in the day or follow other precautionary measures as required, such as adding bags of ice in the ready mix trucks, covering the freshly poured concrete with moist burlap sacks, or keeping a light mist of water vapors over the concrete. I'm sure the design specifications had a section that covered this for extreme high temperatures, especially for something being built in Texas.

Here's an example of specifications for placing concrete in hot weather.

http://construction.about.com/od/Specifications/a/Placing-Concrete-In-Hot-Weather.htm

 

[JAG89]

Thats the company that designed it right? We will see the investigation reports.

To say you are an engineer, you are on the wrong side of the argument, unless you work for a construction firm as an engineer. You do realize the investigation results are being done by an engineering firm (Nelson Forensics). I'm sure PBK made sure the cracks didn't compromise the structural integrity of stadium, which is why they did their report first. Basically, PBK say the cracks are cosmetic and can easily be fixed.

 

[SUJagFan]

Two points:

Three-quarter inch cracks are not cosmetic.

To slow the curing process in hot weather, we typically pour concrete at night and/or add a reducer or retarder to the concrete mix.

 

[JAG89]

Two points:

Three-quarter inch cracks are not cosmetic.

To slow the curing process in hot weather, we typically pour concrete at night and/or add a reducer or retarder to the concrete mix.

Depends on where the cracks are located. If the cracks are located somewhere on the structure that carries no load bearing forces, then the cracks are just cosmetic cracks. As concrete cures, it is going through a chemical reaction that makes it hard, therefore giving off heat during that process. When construction crews poured the concrete for the Hoover Dam, in order for them to keep the concrete from getting too hot during the curing process, a system of cold-water pipes where placed throughout to control the temperature. As of today, the Hoover Dam is still curing and hasn't reached it maximum strength.

Owing to the problems of uneven cooling and contraction -- which could cause the dam face to crack under stress -- concrete was poured in five-foot increments rather than continuously, to assure structural integrity. A special system of cold-water pipes sped the cooling of the concrete.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/05/dayintech_0529

 

[SUJagFan]

:lol:

I know you're just jerking my chain.

But ... again ... a three-quarter inch crack is not cosmetic.

 

[JAG89]

:lol:

I know you're just jerking my chain.

But ... again ... a three-quarter inch crack is not cosmetic.

Okay, if the cracks are located along a non-load bearing wall, just tear down the wall and build another one. You do realize concrete expand and contract and if there are not enough expansion joints, the concrete will definitely crack. By this being the winter months and a very cold winter at that, I bet if nothing was done by the summer the cracks would be a lot smaller.

 

[SUJagFan]

Concrete expands and contracts? Wow. Who knew?

:emlaugh:

JAG89, have you ever poured concrete or are you just reading stuff on the internet?

 

[JAG89]

Concrete expands and contracts? Wow. Who knew?

:emlaugh:

JAG89, have you ever poured concrete or are you just reading stuff on the internet?

Through trial and error, I've made several concrete mix designs with different types of cement, aggregate, water, and sand ratios. I've monitored and supervised crews that have poured concrete for various types of jobs. I've done compression tests on concrete cylinders to determine the concrete's maximum allowable strength for 7, 14, 21, and 28 days of curing time. To say you are a contractor, you seem to have very little knowledge of what I meant by a NON-LOAD BEARING CONCRETE WALL, which means a concrete wall that doesn't support anything other than itself. If the wall was completely removed, the structural integrity of the stadium would not be compromised. Therefore, if that is the case, the wall can be fixed by removing and replacing it or filling in the cracks with some type of cement base type grout, which is a cosmetic fix instead of a structural repair that is required to maintain the stadium's structural integrity.

By the way, I've been working as design engineer for municipalities and consultant firms for over 20 years.

 

[SUJagFan]

:lol:

You don't have to be so harsh with the insults! From not being "aware" that concrete expands and contracts to now not knowing what a non-load bearing wall is. Ouch! :lol:

i stand by my statement the 3/4 inch cracks are not cosmetic. Even if it's not a structural component, a 3/4" crack in a non-load bearing wall suggests a problem with THAT WALL that is beyond cosmetic. Patching cracks in section because it's non-load bearing and because you deem it "cosmetic" could have drastic consequences. If that wall falls over or otherwise fails, somebody could get seriously hurt. I doubt they would consider the problem with the wall "cosmetic" just because it's not a structural component.

You're a typical engineer. All book knowledge with no practical understanding of how things actually work. "Know" everything, but understand nothing.

 

[jag4life]

To say you are an engineer, you are on the wrong side of the argument, unless you work for a construction firm as an engineer. You do realize the investigation results are being done by an engineering firm (Nelson Forensics). I'm sure PBK made sure the cracks didn't compromise the structural integrity of stadium, which is why they did their report first. Basically, PBK say the cracks are cosmetic and can easily be fixed.

I am now a QA Engineer. I see a lot of mistakes on the front end by good engineers who are just human. The problem is, you can't always catch all the mistakes prior to construction, so issues like this can and do happen.

I do know the investigation is being done by another engineering firm. They are an independent 3rd party who will provide an objective report.

 

[jag4life]

And I seriously doubt they would shut down the facility for cracks on a non-load bearing surface.

 

[JAG89]

:lol:

You don't have to be so harsh with the insults! From not being "aware" that concrete expands and contracts to now not knowing what a non-load bearing wall is. Ouch! :lol:

i stand by my statement the 3/4 inch cracks are not cosmetic. Even if it's not a structural component, a 3/4" crack in a non-load bearing wall suggests a problem with THAT WALL that is beyond cosmetic. Patching cracks in section because it's non-load bearing and because you deem it "cosmetic" could have drastic consequences. If that wall falls over or otherwise fails, somebody could get seriously hurt. I doubt they would consider the problem with the wall "cosmetic" just because it's not a structural component.

You're a typical engineer. All book knowledge with no practical understanding of how things actually work. "Know" everything, but understand nothing.

I wasn't trying to be insulting. I was trying to get you to see how folks on the other side of the fence see things and from my 20 plus years of experience, there are dumb azzes on both sides of the fence. I would love to see what the forensics investigation come up with and who would be responsible for the repairs.

 

[JAG89]

And I seriously doubt they would shut down the facility for cracks on a non-load bearing surface.

If that is the case, the stadium would be up and running sooner than most would think.

 

[Dr H..]

:tup:

Accept for the soil strength/optimum soil compaction, concrete mixture, and the under sizing of the reinforcing steel/rebar, everything else you stated goes in the category of lack of oversight and poor construction work. I'm glad somebody realized that the cracks in the structure might not have been from just a bad design. The structure itself also could have been poorly constructed, which occurs a lot.

"Poorly Construction" seem to be the norm. The church I attend, have cracks on the exterior and interior walls. On the exterior walls, some vertical cracks are from top to bottom, thru cement and bricks. Some cracks are hairline and others the thickness of a dime and nickel. There are cracks that encompass an entire outside brick wall.

When asked what was the problem, I stated that it could be a range of problems. But to detect the cause the church need to hire a structural engineer. One member said, how do you know, your profession is Railroads and bridges. My comment was the same engineering applies regardless.

Oh well we will see when the exterior wall fall..

 

[JAG89]

"Poorly Construction" seem to be the norm. The church I attend, have cracks on the exterior and interior walls. On the exterior walls, some vertical cracks are from top to bottom, thru cement and bricks. Some cracks are hairline and others the thickness of a dime and nickel. There are cracks that encompass an entire outside brick wall.

When asked what was the problem, I stated that it could be a range of problems. But to detect the cause the church need to hire a structural engineer. One member said, how do you know, your profession is Railroads and bridges. My comment was the same engineering applies regardless.

Oh well we will see when the exterior wall fall..

You are right. There are several things that could have caused the cracks, but they definitely need to hire a forensic engineer that specialize in structural design. Most Structural Engineers were Civil Engineers first, which is what most railroad and bridge engineers are. Civil engineering is the broader discipline for structural, environmental, transportation, water and wastewater engineering, with railroad engineering being a part of transportation and bridge engineering being a part of structural.

 

[JAG89]

Although the stadium's investigation is only 10% completed and won't be ready until June 2014, it seems like some of my previous assumptions were dead on, which were improper soil compaction, extreme hot and cold weather, or rain water that doesn't properly drain away from the stadium's concrete slab areas.

Weather and shifting soil were cited as potential reasons for concrete cracking although officials say a specific cause at the stadium has yet to be determined.

http://www.examiner.com/article/aft...s-60-million-suburban-dallas-football-stadium

 

[SUJagFan]

Although the stadium's investigation is only 10% completed and won't be ready until June 2014, it seems like some of my previous assumptions were dead on, which were improper soil compaction, extreme hot and cold weather, or rain water that doesn't properly drain away from the stadium's concrete slab areas.

:|

You're trying too hard. You didn't read any of that in the article. The article only said "weather and shifting soil were cited as potential reasons for concrete cracking".

Of the things you mentioned, pouring concrete in adverse weather is the only thing the contractor could be responsible for. As I said before, on projects like that the concrete is usually poured at night and/or additives are put in the mix to allow the concrete to cure more slowly. That's standard practice.

Water not properly draining? That's a design issue.

The most likely culprit is the soil and the foundation of the structure. Even if dirt was brought in or moved around during excavation, the pilings should have been big enough and deep enough to prevent the structure from moving if the soil shifted. Design flaw. Major design flaw.

You can try to blame this on "improper soil compaction" all you want, but there's a reason the construction company and the design firm are working together to resolve this issue.

Oh yeah ... so much for your non-load bearing wall cosmetic crack theory. Seems like 3/4" cracks in the concourse are not cosmetic, as I said.

 

[JAG89]

:|

You're trying too hard. You didn't read any of that in the article. The article only said "weather and shifting soil were cited as potential reasons for concrete cracking".

Of the things you mentioned, pouring concrete in adverse weather is the only thing the contractor could be responsible for. As I said before, on projects like that the concrete is usually poured at night and/or additives are put in the mix to allow the concrete to cure more slowly. That's standard practice.

Water not properly draining? That's a design issue.

The most likely culprit is the soil and the foundation of the structure. Even if dirt was brought in or moved around during excavation, the pilings should have been big enough and deep enough to prevent the structure from moving if the soil shifted. Design flaw. Major design flaw.

You can try to blame this on "improper soil compaction" all you want, but there's a reason the construction company and the design firm are working together to resolve this issue.

Oh yeah ... so much for your non-load bearing wall cosmetic crack theory. Seems like 3/4" cracks in the concourse are not cosmetic, as I said.

I see you are still trying to defend the contractor. Improper storm water drainage could result from a bad grading plan design or the site was not properly graded. The best way to determine who's at fault concerning the grades, all one has to do is take a few spot elevations and match them to the proposed design elevations/grades. If the spot elevations match, then the grading plan design was flawed, but if they don't match, then someone (contractor) didn't properly grade the site.

Also, with you being a contractor, you should know that water can cause a problem by eroding away any compacted soil beneath a structure. And you keep bring up piles as if this stadium was built in New Orleans, where damn near every part of a structure is built on piles. Since the stadium was built in Texas, the concourses in the stadium are probably not pile supported. Probably the only part of the stadium that were pile supported were the mat foundations that support large load bearing items, such as the columns that support the stadium, elevator shafts, and the large video screen. I'm sure the concourse walkways does not support any part of the stadium structure. The only loads that the concourse walkways will probably experience are the live loads of people walking around the stadium, basically a sidewalk. Therefore, the concourse walkways can easily be removed and replaced without jeopardizing the structural integrity of the stadium.

I definitely can tell your forte' is not design engineering.