Not Guilty: Officer who Shot Philando Castile

[s phi s]

Would you publicly arrest a cop who is uniform doing something wrong that you knew was wrong? For example in this case the cop on the opposite side of the car did not have his gun drawn and stated that he was not in danger as he did not see a weapon. Would you have arrested the cop who shot Philando Castile?

I know you are a cop but at the present time I have literally no faith in police what so ever. I have homeboys who are cops that I grew up with, even a first cousin with L.A. County who is contemplating retirement after Friday because he is sick of being associated with a legalized street gang.

Fair enough, and I can appreciate the question, and will do my best to answer it.....However there are a couple of layers to it, so stay with me.

In my opinion, as the other officer on the scene, I would not have arrested the officer on that scene....For that matter, I would not have arrested a civilian on that scene either. Solely putting myself in that other officer's shoes, I don't know what he saw that made him act in the manner he did. Sometimes one person sees things that the other doesn't. Did he just prevent me from getting ambushed? Or did he just shoot him for no reason? I wouldn't be able to answer either question from that perspective, and that's the QUICKEST way to get an arrest thrown out.

On the other hand, as an investigator, my job is to reconstruct the sequence of events as they happened. In this situation, I think the investigators got it right (somewhat) by bringing the charges against the officers. I would have submitted charges against him (based on what I know solely from the media accounts). To me, the charges from the investigators say that after reconstructing everything, they don't believe that him shooting Castille was reasonable given the circumstances. At that point, a custodial arrest is no longer an option. You have to submit the charges and let the attorneys and courts handle it from there. To me, THIS particular case was lost in the court room.

I understand that people have no faith in what we do. I get it...I truly do. One issue that I see from the inside looking out is that there is no true national standard for police. Each state certifies officers differently, and according to their own standards. Every local agency handles things their own way, and according to their own policies. One agency may handle it exactly like the next, but completely different from another. Large city departments handle things differently from small city departments. This is why I sometimes hesitate to offer an opinion, because my opinion is often rooted in the policies and procedures of my agency, which may be drastically different from a department thousands of miles and several states away. What I think may be wrong may be completely acceptable for that department and state.

With that said, I will say again what I have said several times. With a lot of these recent incidents, officers are putting themselves in bad positions, then resorting to force to bail them out. Ultimately, it will be judged by the courts as reasonable, because they will only be judged on the split seconds leading up to the force, not everything leading up to it. For example, Tamir Rice. Legally speaking, it was a justified shooting, because the officers feared he had a gun and was in proximity to use it on them. Personally, I think it was chicken shit, because they should have never been that close to start with. In my opinion, they created the situation of danger by riding that close to a person who is reported to have a gun. That's not what is taught. But ultimately, that part has a lot less weight in the judgment process than "we believed he had a gun and was close enough to use it". That's the legal standard, like it or not. Another example.....the cat that got shot in the car dealership in the Dallas area about a year ago that was high on something. Officer rushed in trying to be a damn hero, and now he's there, senses the danger that he should have sensed from the beginning, and ends up shooting him. Ultimately, the shooting will be judged as justified because once he was in there, they felt that the danger was enough to justify the shooting. I question why the hell he went in there in the first place.
There are many others that I could expound on. My whole point is that the legal standard is one thing. Personal opinion is yet another. I understand how this keeps happening. That does not mean that I agree with it. I am one man, and I do my part EVERY DAY, whether you believe it or not.

 

[The Founder]

Fair enough. Although I have on occasion offered personal views as well. Let me offer my personal opinion on this one.....

I think the officer was scary as hell. I have encountered numerous people on stops who tell me they have a gun on them, and I have yet to so much as even unholster my weapon. In my opinion, he put himself in a position to where, in his mind, he had no choice. I was reading an article the other day that solidified this. Had he been in the normal "safe" position that officers are trained for in a traffic stop (behind the "B" pillar), he would not have been in the line of fire, even if he did perceive a threat from Castille pulling a firearm. I further have a HUGE problem with him firing into a car, especially from the position he was in, with a child in the back seat, in the backdrop of his line of fire. I (along with every other cop I have talked to, whether white, black, hispanic or other) agrees that we are dumbfounded that he was not convicted on ANYTHING.....yet we are not surprised, much as you are not surprised. The prosecutors trying these cases are typically FAR less experienced than the defense attorneys. And in the case of officers, the lawyers representing them are often times former officers themselves. All they have to introduce is REASONABLE DOUBT, and the prosecution must prove their case BEYOND that reasonable doubt, in addition to proving the "mens rea" or mental state of the officer. Proving murder is MUCH MORE than just proving that Officer A pulled the trigger and the bullet killed Person B.

I'm calling your post bullshit.

First how can he be scared when:

1. The guy gave him his insurance.
2. There is a 3 year old properly restrained.
3. All passengers are properly restrained
4. His partner on the opposite side of the car did not have his gun drawn and had another vantage point that would show that there was no gun.
5. He told the cop he had a fire arm and the other cop still did not have his gun drawn
6. He gave the cop his insurance and the cop requested ID and he was clearly going for his wallet to get the ID. Where do 95% of men keep their ID...in their fucking wallet.
7. He carelessly fired and by the grace of God the bullet didn't go through Castile and hit his child.
8. Even after shooting him that many times he stood there not calling for EMTs.

The first thing you said was the cop was scared. That is an immediate defense mechanism. Secondly you state that defense attorneys are more experienced YET the state has EVERY resource necessary for a criminal case. I have said it and will continue to say it: Police, Judges, and Prosecutors are secret partners.

 

[The Founder]

Fair enough, and I can appreciate the question, and will do my best to answer it.....However there are a couple of layers to it, so stay with me.

In my opinion, as the other officer on the scene, I would not have arrested the officer on that scene....For that matter, I would not have arrested a civilian on that scene either. Solely putting myself in that other officer's shoes, I don't know what he saw that made him act in the manner he did. Sometimes one person sees things that the other doesn't. Did he just prevent me from getting ambushed? Or did he just shoot him for no reason? I wouldn't be able to answer either question from that perspective, and that's the QUICKEST way to get an arrest thrown out.

On the other hand, as an investigator, my job is to reconstruct the sequence of events as they happened. In this situation, I think the investigators got it right (somewhat) by bringing the charges against the officers. I would have submitted charges against him (based on what I know solely from the media accounts). To me, the charges from the investigators say that after reconstructing everything, they don't believe that him shooting Castille was reasonable given the circumstances. At that point, a custodial arrest is no longer an option. You have to submit the charges and let the attorneys and courts handle it from there. To me, THIS particular case was lost in the court room.

I understand that people have no faith in what we do. I get it...I truly do. One issue that I see from the inside looking out is that there is no true national standard for police. Each state certifies officers differently, and according to their own standards. Every local agency handles things their own way, and according to their own policies. One agency may handle it exactly like the next, but completely different from another. Large city departments handle things differently from small city departments. This is why I sometimes hesitate to offer an opinion, because my opinion is often rooted in the policies and procedures of my agency, which may be drastically different from a department thousands of miles and several states away. What I think may be wrong may be completely acceptable for that department and state.

With that said, I will say again what I have said several times. With a lot of these recent incidents, officers are putting themselves in bad positions, then resorting to force to bail them out. Ultimately, it will be judged by the courts as reasonable, because they will only be judged on the split seconds leading up to the force, not everything leading up to it. For example, Tamir Rice. Legally speaking, it was a justified shooting, because the officers feared he had a gun and was in proximity to use it on them. Personally, I think it was chicken shit, because they should have never been that close to start with. In my opinion, they created the situation of danger by riding that close to a person who is reported to have a gun. That's not what is taught. But ultimately, that part has a lot less weight in the judgment process than "we believed he had a gun and was close enough to use it". That's the legal standard, like it or not. Another example.....the cat that got shot in the car dealership in the Dallas area about a year ago that was high on something. Officer rushed in trying to be a damn hero, and now he's there, senses the danger that he should have sensed from the beginning, and ends up shooting him. Ultimately, the shooting will be judged as justified because once he was in there, they felt that the danger was enough to justify the shooting. I question why the hell he went in there in the first place.
There are many others that I could expound on. My whole point is that the legal standard is one thing. Personal opinion is yet another. I understand how this keeps happening. That does not mean that I agree with it. I am one man, and I do my part EVERY DAY, whether you believe it or not.

It's not going to change as long as judges, prosecutors, and police remain secret partners. As long as the "good cops" sit back and allow the bullshit to happen. As long as prosecutors bring bullshit charges they know can't be proven....and judges secretly agree with shutting down evidence that could bring guilt to the officers. Legalized gang.

 

[s phi s]

I'm calling your post bullshit.

First how can he be scared when:

1. The guy gave him his insurance.
2. There is a 3 year old properly restrained.
3. All passengers are properly restrained
4. His partner on the opposite side of the car did not have his gun drawn and had another vantage point that would show that there was no gun.
5. He told the cop he had a fire arm and the other cop still did not have his gun drawn
6. He gave the cop his insurance and the cop requested ID and he was clearly going for his wallet to get the ID. Where do 95% of men keep their ID...in their fucking wallet.
7. He carelessly fired and by the grace of God the bullet didn't go through Castile and hit his child.
8. Even after shooting him that many times he stood there not calling for EMTs.

The first thing you said was the cop was scared. That is an immediate defense mechanism. Secondly you state that defense attorneys are more experienced YET the state has EVERY resource necessary for a criminal case. I have said it and will continue to say it: Police, Judges, and Prosecutors are secret partners.

I'm not disagreeing with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or, 8.....AT ALL....Which is why I am as dumbfounded at the verdict as everyone else is.....hence my first reply in this thread was SMH. If he was that scared, 1) he shouldn't have been where he was at the car....2) (which should probably be 1) he never should have been a cop to start with. Some people simply fear "us" as black people, period. I don't understand it either...

And yeah, the state has all the resources....I don't disagree....but, as with any field, there is no substitute for experience. Defense attorneys often times are former prosecutors, and know how to find the loopholes.

 

[s phi s]

It's not going to change as long as judges, prosecutors, and police remain secret partners. As long as the "good cops" sit back and allow the bullshit to happen. As long as prosecutors bring bullshit charges they know can't be proven....and judges secretly agree with shutting down evidence that could bring guilt to the officers. Legalized gang.

With all due respect, none of the above have the final say in ANY of it. It's the 6 (or 12) people that they won't show on camera in the court room that ultimately decide....and I dayum sure won't call it a jury of "peers" because it usually isn't.

 

[The Founder]

With all due respect, none of the above have the final say in ANY of it. It's the 6 (or 12) people that they won't show on camera in the court room that ultimately decide....and I dayum sure won't call it a jury of "peers" because it usually isn't.

I personally do not believe the prosecutors wanted a guilty plea anyway.

 

[Kendrick]

With all due respect, none of the above have the final say in ANY of it. It's the 6 (or 12) people that they won't show on camera in the court room that ultimately decide....and I dayum sure won't call it a jury of "peers" because it usually isn't.

Juries still have a favorable view of the police and believe they're only doing their job in protecting the public. That's ultimately why a lot these cops get off.

 

[s phi s]

Juries still have a favorable view of the police and believe they're only doing their job in protecting the public. That's ultimately why a lot these cops get off.

I agree with this. And defense lawyers will definitely try to strike a juror during the selection phase that doesn't fit this bill.

 

[SleepyCrat]

This is related but not related....Remember how you felt when you heard this. When this Trump stuff is over and he is vindicated and he is re-elected in 2020 , it's going to feel the same way. His case is the same thing as this one on a larger scale and stage. The people that are functioning as "the prosecution" have a vested interest in his innocence.

 

[Herbert77060]

Too emotional to comment....all I can do it nod. I am sick to my stomach.

 

[96lioness]

Of course, you're in denial.

You have to be self-delusional to see rampant brutality of your own people and look the other way.

To see corruption, coverups, and other injustice, but refuse to cross the thin blue line. Because you know if you did then you wouldn't have a job.

There is no such thing as a good cop that defends police brutality. There is no such thing as a good cop that ignores injustice. Stands silent in support of the system rather than what is right.

In my opinion, there's no difference between these silent, coward "good" cops and the uniformed thugs they work with! These silent cowards as equally rotten as the crooks they serve with.

 

[96lioness]

I'm calling your post bullshit.

First how can he be scared when:


8. Even after shooting him that many times he stood there not calling for EMTs.

The first thing you said was the cop was scared. That is an immediate defense mechanism. Secondly you state that defense attorneys are more experienced YET the state has EVERY resource necessary for a criminal case. I have said it and will continue to say it: Police, Judges, and Prosecutors are secret partners.

Founder, that murdering coward was so "scared" that he shot at Philando Castile SEVEN times.......and had the nerve to get on the stand and say he didn't want to shoot Philando! Apparently he didn't want to save him AFTER he shot him seven times because he didn't call the paramedics.

Lying b@st@rd!

 

[The Founder]

Founder, that murdering coward was so "scared" that he shot at Philando Castile SEVEN times.

Tell me about it. I just got finished having this discussion with a white co-worker in relation to Colin Kaepernick. I told her that the Castile not guilty verdict is one that truly hit to the soul of black people. Unlike any of the last there was absolutely nothing the media could find negative about what so ever. So much so that the principle of the school where he worked told the media that Castile had memorized EVERY child's allergy. Even the parents at the school were hurt and angry.

Fuck I'm getting mad all over again.

 

[Bighead]

This is sad, and what I am about to say is hard

Black ppl we should stop relying and stop thinking we will get justice. It's not going to happen for us. We are at war wit folks

It's so real for me, that when I request a call out from the police I specifically say bring over a black unit/cop. Don't bring or send anybody other than a black cop.

That's how real it's gotten for me. I encourage you all to do the same.

I don't want to have nothing to do with CACs

 

[96lioness]

YOU DON'T KNOW ME!!!! I had a job BEFORE this, and can get one after this, if I so choose. I was black BEFORE being a cop, am black now, and will be black when they lower me into the ground. You have absolutely NO FUCKING CLUE how I go about doing my job. Find me that 13 year old that I roughed up. Find me that 14 year old that I slammed. Find me a 6 year old that I put in handcuffs. You can't and won't. But you WILL find kids that I have mentored who have steered clear of the school to prison pipeline. You WILL find kids who see the stuff that I do OUTSIDE of the uniform and ask me to mentor them, to teach them. See my friend.....I am not the problem. YOU are.

*DISCLAIMER.....I am not a representative, good or bad, of all cops, just as none of you are representative of ALL of any group.. I am me, a cop who tries to do the right thing the right way. All cops aren't built like me, and I know this. But until you KNOW me, and have SEEN what I have done in my career, you can save that bullshit rant above....

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind; if you choose not to answer, I'm cool.

What is "the stuff" that you do for our black youth OUTSIDE the uniform? When asked to mentor our youth, do you? Have you ever publicly reported corruption done by an officer and/or precinct? Regardless, would you say your mentorship to our youth is as beneficial as doing all you can to publicly report and make a concentrated effort to spotlight corruption by your fellow officers and/or precincts?

Would you publicly arrest a cop who is uniform doing something wrong that you knew was wrong? Would you have arrested the cop who shot Philando Castile?

And also, you gave a lengthy post but I noticed you didn't answer Founder's questions above. I'm interested in hearing your answer, if you'll oblige. He asked some fairly simple questions.

 

[The Founder]

This is sad, and what I am about to say is hard

Black ppl we should stop relying and seeking justice. It's not going to happen for us. We are at war wit folks

It's so real for me, that when I request a call out from the police I specifically say bring over a black unit/cop. Don't bring or send anybody other than a black cop.

That's how real it's gotten for me. I encourage you all to do the same.

I don't want to have nothing to do with CACs

Bighead some of the black cops are the worst.

 

[Bighead]

Bighead some of the black cops are the worst.

At least I know if, one offs me, they'll be put away. I'd rather take my chances from a black cop than a CAC

 

[Bighead]

Black folks we need to stop expressing our emotions and stop trying to appeal to CACs and coons so that they can see our side of the coin because that's never gonna happened and even if they do lend a shoulder, they'll be the ones behind close doors saying "Guilty"

It's time for us to start building among one another.

The cop dude, let him run with his narrative. He knows the talking points and has been trained on what to say and give his view from a cop side. If he still believes that this stuff just started in 2015 Let him do him. He has cop buddies right now, CACs that don't belong on the force, what yall think he's gonna do about it? Nothing but walk into work and wait on that next 10-10 code or whatever ten code they get to respond for the next call to duty. Let him live. I wish the brotha well. Yall won't convince dude or anything.

He's not the enemy. It's time for us to stop trying to convince folks that what these CACS are doing is wrong, they know. We just have to adjust our mindset and stop fukin wit CACs and coons and build up those who are on something else.

 

[Bighead]

Practice your 2nd amendment right. Start hitting up the gun ranges (We are at war)

Learn about the stuff you eat/food. Get your health in line.

Invest in land/businesses (legit) with other brothers and sisters.

Understand the political game/con game/dusty nga game etc.

Travel the world.

Cut off CACs and coons. If you are still messing with cacs and coons in 2017, you should be ashamed of yoself.

 

[s phi s]

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind; if you choose not to answer, I'm cool.

What is "the stuff" that you do for our black youth OUTSIDE the uniform? When asked to mentor our youth, do you? Have you ever publicly reported corruption done by an officer and/or precinct? Regardless, would you say your mentorship to our youth is as beneficial as doing all you can to publicly report and make a concentrated effort to spotlight corruption by your fellow officers and/or precincts?


And also, you gave a lengthy post but I noticed you didn't answer Founder's questions above. I'm interested in hearing your answer, if you'll oblige. He asked some fairly simple questions.

As for your second part, I did answer his question right here...

Fair enough, and I can appreciate the question, and will do my best to answer it.....However there are a couple of layers to it, so stay with me.

In my opinion, as the other officer on the scene, I would not have arrested the officer on that scene....For that matter, I would not have arrested a civilian on that scene either. Solely putting myself in that other officer's shoes, I don't know what he saw that made him act in the manner he did. Sometimes one person sees things that the other doesn't. Did he just prevent me from getting ambushed? Or did he just shoot him for no reason? I wouldn't be able to answer either question from that perspective, and that's the QUICKEST way to get an arrest thrown out.

I went on to some other further explanations after that, but I did answer his question. And to elaborate on the initial question, the answer is the same in my eyes for an officer or a civilian, with this caveat. Our department policy requires that if we catch an officer in an illegal and/or criminal act, we are authorized to detain, but any further arrest decisions are made by supervisors. In my present capacity, I only have the authority to detain and report. Each situation is different, and is treated as such.

As for the first part of your question, yes, I mentor our youth quite often, both formally and informally. I serve as a mentor for the Elliott Chandler Foundation, a foundation that provides scholarship and mentoring, moral, and ethical support to young men who desire to obtain a degree from an institution of higher learning and become the next generation of leaders. I STILL teach music on occasion, from private instrument lessons, to DJ lessons to kids at the school. I am a POSITIVE role model for the youth that I am around. Even as part of my work assignment at the school, students are KNOWN to come to me for guidance when they can't even get it from a school administrator. Many of the kids I work with start with a HORRIBLE view of police, whether from their own experience, media, or a combination of the two. But after interacting with me, they have walked away saying that even with the assholes that are out there as officers, all of them aren't bad.

You ever hear this story?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/18/soldier-james-brown-dies-jail-video_n_7309716.html

The little brother of the man in this video just graduated from my school. One day, a conversation ensued between us, and he just asked a lot of questions, many of which I admitted to him that I had no answer for, only to say that every encounter isn't like that. To see the pain in that young man's eyes when talking about his brother, and how he has viewed police since then. We talked about an hour. I sat there and thought about how hollow those words had to be to someone who lost a loved one to one of those "thats". I honestly expected him to avoid me from that point on. He came back a few weeks later, unexpectedly, and sat in my office again and struck up conversation. This time he told me, I see what you do around here. I see how you interact with the kids, and how they actually trust you around here. Why can't all of "y'all" be like you? That is a loaded question from a kid of that age (he was just starting his junior year when these conversations occurred). My philosophy, especially when talking about policing in a school setting, is all about building trust by having your words match your actions, and your actions match your words. I show the kids that I am human, not some robot with a badge. They have seen me refereeing basketball games at the school, DJing at the school, PA Announcing sports at the school, running sprints and drills with the football team, etc. I don't just come and sit in an office for 8 hours, yell at them, take them to jail, and go home. I aim to be a positive force in SOMEBODY'S life....I can't represent every police officer, but I can represent myself in the best way possible every time I interact with someone. And that's why, on some level, I take offense to some of the suggestions from people on here that don't know me that I'm some kind of c**n ass Uncle Tom who has forgotten how black I am. Quite the contrary. I know where I came from, and have watched those that came from there with me who have fallen by the wayside. If I can help somebody else avoid that, I will have accomplished my mission.

Have I ever reported an officer? Yes, I have. Have only been put in that position once, but did not hesitate when placed there. Wrong is wrong, whether citizen or police....PERIOD!!! The officer that was reported had attained quite a bit of notoriety locally, but was also doing stuff that was unethical, and borderline illegal. The decision wasn't hard. At the end of the day, if I was the one doing the dirt, they would have no problem reporting my black ass.

As for the last part of that question, the answer is two-fold. Neither of those is mutually exclusive. Both are equally important. With that said, if there is nothing around me to report, what do you want me to do? Move to Minnesota and find something? I'm really not trying to be a smart ass here....I am really trying to understand what some of you want......I understand that an officer should stop and/or report another officer's wrongdoing (that's even a part of my department's policy). But if it ain't happening around you, and the folks you are around are doing it the right way, what is there to report? And if I was in a department where I had to report an officer every other day, that's a department I don't want to work for anyway.

 

[Tiger1]

 

[s phi s]

After watching the video, I will copy and paste my EXACT words from July 7, 2016....

I agree. Should not be a deadly force encounter. Still don't know how it got to that point, and there are always two sides to a story. But on first blush, this looks bad. The last part, I alluded to this earlier. A broken tail light is a valid stop, but rarely ticketed. It is an offense used often as a pretext stop, usually in high crime/drug areas, which often tend to be low income areas, which are disproportionately minority (a whole different topic altogether). Ultimately, I agree that absent any other factors, this stop should have never escalated like it did.

What I said then is still true in my mind after watching this video. Usually, even if I don't agree that a conviction was warranted, I can at least halfway understand the reasoning and logic behind why. This one and the Betty Shelby verdict have me scratching my head.

 

[Kendrick]

This statistic is eye-opening

 

[The Founder]

What juror in their right fucking mind would not convict this cop. The other cop never once pulled his weapon and had a better view point of the Castile. Also, what he passed the officer was his insurance and was retrieving his license. Furthermore, he was still in his seat belt. The other jumped away in order not to be shot.

The other cop is just as at fault because he covered for the killer. I would want to read his testimony. Castile's fiance also said he was following the cops orders by retrieving his license.

 

[LS Syndicate]

What I said then is still true in my mind after watching this video. Usually, even if I don't agree that a conviction was warranted, I can at least halfway understand the reasoning and logic behind why. This one and the Betty Shelby verdict have me scratching my head.

I applaud you for not backing down or shutting down in this debate. What many of us are trying to understand is: why are you scratching your head? Why are you 'dumbfounded'? THIS IS WHAT THE SYSTEM WAS DESIGNED TO DO! As an LEO, you should know that better than anybody. It's one thing to be angry and upset about it, because I believe you are. What I don't understand is why anyone would be shocked.