Do white/black Police officers receive different fire arm training?


2kool said:
The initial post of this thread basically points out how these incidents are, in fact, racially driven, and @s phi s is in here tying himself in statistical knots trying to prove why they're not.

Eric Harris was hunted down like a damn deer in the woods and mocked. "F--k your breath"....but these incidents aren't racial.

Get the hell outta here with that B.S.
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To say that there are no racially driven incidents with police would be an asinine statement, and it's one that I have NEVER made, going back to the first high profile one with Mike Brown (dig em up...) I didn't start with the numbers, others did, then when I used their formulas with real world numbers and it didn't paint the same overall picture that they tried to with the numbers, then I'm somehow trying to prove that they're not? Negative homie. On a case by case level, yes there are many incidents that even those in the profession will tell you just aren't on the up and up. On a grand scale, this whole "police are hunting black people" just doesn't hold up.

So you mean to tell me that you don't think the Mike Brown, Eric Harris, Walter Scott, and others' stories haven't been sensationalized in the media? That's not to say they don't deserve to be spotlighted, and they DEFINITELY shouldn't be hidden. But you REALLY mean to tell me that, especially, in the Mike Brown case, the media didn't fuel much of the strife in Missouri with at times nonstop coverage of "us" acting like damn fools in the name of justice? They put the STAR witness on TV and let him rile all of America up with a story that proved to be VERY inaccurate. How is that RESPONSIBLE?

My point here is NOT to absolve cops in these incidents. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I wish more were held responsible for the totality of their actions. My thought process does not have anything to do with the color of ANY victim, because black, white, or other, they are a victim. That's my WHOLE point....While y'all are focused on police vs blacks, my thing is police vs ANYONE....Unarmed whites have been shot, arrested, etc, but the media isn't driving up a shat-storm or providing a non-stop rhetoric to inflame anyone over it. That's ALL I'm saying.
 
JAG89 said:
As we say in math, s phi s has completely gone off the tangent. I really suggest he invest in one of these books.

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Without resorting to childishness, I will say that after re-reading your initial post yet again, I now see where I misinterpreted what you were saying with the numbers. And I have no problem saying so. You think I'm a dummy? So be it. It still does not detract, nor will it change my opinion. What you fail to realize is that I am not totally disagreeing with the premise of what you are saying. I am just saying the problem is not black specific, as many of you try to make it out to be.
 



As for the premise of the original post, you know dayum well that there is no different firearms training for whites than there is for blacks. Black officers shoot folks as well, but it is not viral, front page news every time it happens. Training PERIOD is evolving, especially in today's climate.
 
s phi s said:
Without resorting to childishness, I will say that after re-reading your initial post yet again, I now see where I misinterpreted what you were saying with the numbers. And I have no problem saying so. You think I'm a dummy? So be it. It still does not detract, nor will it change my opinion. What you fail to realize is that I am not totally disagreeing with the premise of what you are saying. I am just saying the problem is not black specific, as many of you try to make it out to be.
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Okay......But statistics logically explains that there is a GREAT DISPARITY between Blacks and Whites when it comes to individuals being killed by the police. IMO, I think it has a lot to do with the Reagan/Bush Administration War On Drugs or War On Black People, particularly Black men. Today's police departments still have the mindset that they have to chase behind every Black man for the possession of crack cocaine.
 
s phi s said:
As for the premise of the original post, you know dayum well that there is no different firearms training for whites than there is for blacks. Black officers shoot folks as well, but it is not viral, front page news every time it happens. Training PERIOD is evolving, especially in today's climate.
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I agree that police firearms training is the same across the board, but everyone's upbringing starting from childhood are NOT the same. Their mindset makes the difference in who they kill.
 
That may be true, but those same stats don't always tell a complete story, only the end result. Granted, there are some high profile cases of questionable shootings by police. And granted, everyone is raised differently. Since I have been in this profession, I have seen a LOT. I have been in some shoot/don't shoot situations. I have watched people BE shot by the police. I have seen people shoot AT the police. I have watched people shoot themselves rather than deal with the police. None of those were white. ALL of them had committed crimes BEFORE even interacting with officers. I'm not saying this shat doesn't happen. I'm just saying let's be honest. A number of "our" (and "their", for that matter) interactions with the police start with our own actions. And that, as you stated, starts with the way a person is raised. Some, especially in the black and hispanic populations, are raised from birth not to "fugg with 12", trust the police, or even be caught speaking to one. So the mindset issue goes both ways....a cop hell bent on showing he's the boss vs someone raised to mistrust the police (however valid or invalid their assumptions may be) is a recipe for disaster.
 
s phi s said:
That may be true, but those same stats don't always tell a complete story, only the end result. Granted, there are some high profile cases of questionable shootings by police. And granted, everyone is raised differently. Since I have been in this profession, I have seen a LOT. I have been in some shoot/don't shoot situations. I have watched people BE shot by the police. I have seen people shoot AT the police. I have watched people shoot themselves rather than deal with the police. None of those were white. ALL of them had committed crimes BEFORE even interacting with officers. I'm not saying this shat doesn't happen. I'm just saying let's be honest. A number of "our" (and "their", for that matter) interactions with the police start with our own actions. And that, as you stated, starts with the way a person is raised. Some, especially in the black and hispanic populations, are raised from birth not to "fugg with 12", trust the police, or even be caught speaking to one. So the mindset issue goes both ways....a cop hell bent on showing he's the boss vs someone raised to mistrust the police (however valid or invalid their assumptions may be) is a recipe for disaster.
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However you look at it, there's a systemic problem in this country that needs to be fixed. Another way to look at it, a Black person has a 4.22 (2.7 / 0.64) greater chance of getting killed by the police than a White person, which means a Black person is slightly more than 4 times as likely to be killed by the police than a White person. It's definitely a problem that needs to be fixed.
 
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JAG89 said:
However you look at it, there's a systemic problem in this country that needs to be fix. Another way to look at it, a Black person has a 2.06 (2.7 - 0.64) greater chance of getting killed by the police than White a person, which means a Black person is slightly more than twice as likely to be killed by the police than a White person. It's definitely a problem that needs to be fix.
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Yup, there's problems, and they must be fixed on BOTH sides of the equation.
 
s phi s said:
Apply that same logic to the traffic numbers in Ferguson, where 80% of traffic citations went to the group that makes up 64% of the population. I'm not saying that your numbers, premise, or logic are wrong, incorrect, or flawed. I'm just saying don't change the way you look at them to fit the agenda that is being pushed.

My logic is sound, not dangerous. And it's not influenced by the hot narrative of the moment.
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Your logic is dangerous because it provides cover for an unjust system towards blacks. Just like the black cop who was on the scene when the dude in SC got capped in the back. What did the black cop do...went right along with the narrative to cover for the unjust system. And what are you doing...taking two numbers waaay out of context and using to justify the system for killing unarmed black folks. That's some dangerous stuff there.
 
MetroPhillyTiger said:
Your logic is dangerous because it provides cover for an unjust system towards blacks. Just like the black cop who was on the scene when the dude in SC got capped in the back. What did the black cop do...went right along with the narrative to cover for the unjust system. And what are you doing...taking two numbers waaay out of context and using to justify the system for killing unarmed black folks. That's some dangerous stuff there.
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If you can't figure out that I am not justifying anything, then you have a larger issue. I'm not providing cover. What you are doing is suggesting that every encounter police have with blacks is precipitated with racism. I dunno what the black cop did at the scene beyond what I saw in the video, and that's provide some level of first aid to the dude that got shot. If he said he did more than what he actually did, or provided any type of story that wasn't portrayed on the video, I don't know because I didn't read the report, nor have I heard or read any reports about it in the media (there may have been a story about it, just haven't seen it personally).

BTW, I admitted a few posts back that I read the post wrong numerous times in the beginning, and after re-reading it again once I got home from work, the numbers he put together made more sense and I understood what he was trying to say. I admitted that I made a mistake (much more than I can ask from many of you perfect folks walking around).
 
s phi s said:
Yup, there's problems, and they must be fixed on BOTH sides of the equation.
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I agree that there are two sides to this equation when it comes to the mindset of everyone. But again, Black people have a 2.06 greater chance of being killed by the police than White people. No matter how you look at it, it's a serious problem in this country that needs to be fixed on both sides of the equation, especially with this country's police departments that are giving the authority to enforce the law. Somehow I don't get your logic of fixing the victim (Black community) FIRST as a means of fixing the problem, but I can see changing the mindset of police departments as means of getting more Blacks to trust the police.
 
I didn't say it needed to happen first, last, or anywhere in between...I'm saying that both sides of the equation need fixing. You boldly emphasized something I never said, and even added the black community in parenthesis when I CLEARLY stated that victims in these situations go beyond racial boundaries.

I understand, and have repeatedly given the points that you make validity. Don't know what else you want me to say dude. Your numbers prove your point. Cool with me. I'm not talking about what I saw on TV, statistics, urban legends passed down through generations, or barber shop stories. I'm simply talking from what I see every day when I strap on my boots and vest and interact with the future of this country (our youth) about these very issues. I am honest with them, and them with me, because I once WAS them, and had the SAME questions about the things I saw in front of me. I have had students nearly shot by my co-workers who approached their car that was idling at the end of a neighborhood street after one of the neighbors called the police because they had never seen the car parked there before. Why were they almost shot? They reached under a seat trying to stuff the weed they were about to smoke under there when they saw the cops approaching them. Were they shot? No, but the officers dayum sure let them know how close they were to becoming another headline. They couldn't understand it. They felt they were singled out and mistreated until I put a demonstration on for them and they experienced it from a different perspective. They realized that they put themselves in a position that they were fortunate didn't turn out really bad.

I'm not saying that these situations are the norm, or even remotely trying to insinuate that every situation of this nature is the fault of the victim. But what other profession is a gun and a bulletproof vest required equipment? An officer goes to work every day prepared for battle and knowing that they might not come home. But how did it get to that point? Before the LA bank robbery, you couldn't find an officer with an AR15 rifle. Then the criminals used one and were outgunning the police. Now, and AR15 is common equipment. Officers used to work with one pair of cuffs. Now they routinely carry 2 or more. Why? Because something happened to make them say, not again. The same is true for the opposite side. Using myself as an example, if I got stopped by an officer who treated me like shat once, when I get stopped again, I am probably gonna assume that this guy is no different. And it'll be even worse if my dad is already locked up (again) forcing my mom to work 2 jobs to feed the kids while I drive to work with no license or insurance to pay the light bill. This is reality for some. It's how they are raised. As much as you want to paint it like it's only police who were raised that way, some people were just raised to mistrust the police, for whatever reasons, valid or invalid. It doesn't matter.

I am the FIRST to tell you....with power comes the weight of MUCH loftier expectations, and law enforcement officers HAVE to recognize that. I'm all for cameras and any accountability placed on officers. It is not too much to ask for an officer to do their job fairly. And for the general public, I encourage them to know their rights (their REAL rights, not that bullshat you see on CopBlock....believing in and trying everything they see on that crap is getting us hurt and put in jail more often now). I'll end this by saying this.....I know that the vast majority of people I work with and beside do this job the right way. I also know from personal experience that there are some who don't. I PERSONALLY know people who worked in law enforcement who I thought were good people who were indicted for various criminal actions. It takes a special person to be able to do the job with integrity. For those that don't, they deserve whatever comes to them for their actions. Those few make it SO much harder for the many.
 
I have the opportunity to observe police work from a perspective that most people don't. I've been on ride-a-longs, watch them make arrests during stings and raids. I've watched them train. Had the chance to talk to officers about their mindset, about procedures, about why things are done the way they are.

And just shooting the crap with them when their guard is down you learn a lot.

I play softball with sheriff's deputies on the weekends.

I've come away with a lot of respect for them as a result.

This, however, doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for misconduct. I think there should be measures/systems put in place that protects the public and the police.

The public, especially in minority communities, have historically not trusted the police due to individual encounters with officers or come to know of the experiences of others.

There is a widespread mistrust of the police overall regardless of race. White folks don't exactly hold police in high esteem either.

Plus, nobody likes authority figures to begin with.

But LEO have to be guarded or at a heighten state of awareness on the job simply because the nature of the job. Because of that, sometimes these confrontations with the public end in unfortunate ways.

It's gonna take work from all parties to mend this relationship.
 
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s phi s

I'm glad to hear that you spend a great deal of time explaining to young Black men the police's perception of how things look, which satisfies one side of your equation, but do you spend just as much time explaining to your co-workers the Black community's perception of the police, which is sometimes viewed as excessive policing? There's a great disconnect between the police and the communities they serve, particularly minority communities and fixing one side of the equation is only half of the solution. IMO, police officers should live and work in the same community that they serve. When I worked for the City of Los Angeles, most LAPD's police officers lived in the county (Ventura County) just north of Los Angeles County. It was really rare to find a police officer living in the City of Los Angeles.
 
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s phi s said:
If you can't figure out that I am not justifying anything, then you have a larger issue. I'm not providing cover. What you are doing is suggesting that every encounter police have with blacks is precipitated with racism. I dunno what the black cop did at the scene beyond what I saw in the video, and that's provide some level of first aid to the dude that got shot. If he said he did more than what he actually did, or provided any type of story that wasn't portrayed on the video, I don't know because I didn't read the report, nor have I heard or read any reports about it in the media (there may have been a story about it, just haven't seen it personally).

BTW, I admitted a few posts back that I read the post wrong numerous times in the beginning, and after re-reading it again once I got home from work, the numbers he put together made more sense and I understood what he was trying to say. I admitted that I made a mistake (much more than I can ask from many of you perfect folks walking around).
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Well...if I said that I didn't intend to. All I was trying to say was that you weren't using the statistics correctly...and I know you weren't trying to do this, but there are lots of folks out there who take crime statistics out of context for untoward purposes.
 
I think that some of the people are bringing up the point of how it seems as if whites get the benefit of the doubt when in confrontations with the police and it seems as if african-americans get a zero tolerance treatment in seemingly all confrontations with police officers.

Here's an example of something that seems amazing to me


The way that officers plead and talk to them, the way they actually engage in a fist fight with these people and how they don't really use deadly force until one of them are shot. There's no way anyone with sense can say "That confrontation would've went the same way if that family was black".

I can find other examples, but why is there a discrepancy in the approach that the police take with us vs. people who have proven to be just as dangerous?
 
SleepyCrat said:
I think that some of the people are bringing up the point of how it seems as if whites get the benefit of the doubt when in confrontations with the police and it seems as if african-americans get a zero tolerance treatment in seemingly all confrontations with police officers.

Here's an example of something that seems amazing to me


The way that officers plead and talk to them, the way they actually engage in a fist fight with these people and how they don't really use deadly force until one of them are shot. There's no way anyone with sense can say "That confrontation would've went the same way if that family was black".

I can find other examples, but why is there a discrepancy in the approach that the police take with us vs. people who have proven to be just as dangerous?
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They don't wanna hear that. They'll just deflect back to the talking point taught to them by white daddy.

"Just don't run and you won't get shot."

"Be respectful and you won't get shot."

"Don't try to flee the plantation, and you won't get hung."
 
CNN threw out some raw data today without actually breaking it down. Anybody with common sense can see that based on population percentages, African Americans are disproportionally being killed by the police than any other group. It's similar to the prison population, where African Americans make up over half of the country's prison population, but only make up 12% of the country's total population. Blacks make up 12.6% of the country's population, but make up 21% of those killed by the police. Somehow CNN can't see the disparity too.

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JAG89 said:
s phi s

I'm glad to hear that you spend a great deal of time explaining to young Black men the police's perception of how things look, which satisfies one side of your equation, but do you spend just as much time explaining to your co-workers the Black community's perception of the police, which is sometimes viewed as excessive policing? There's a great disconnect between the police and the communities they serve, particularly minority communities and fixing one side of the equation is only half of the solution. IMO, police officers should live and work in the same community that they serve. When I worked for the City of Los Angeles, most LAPD's police officers lived in the county (Ventura County) just north of Los Angeles County. It was really rare to find a police officer living in the City of Los Angeles.
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And there it is!

I absolutely love this Jag89! Very, very excellent question & point!
 
In my experience, I haven't HAD to, because I have not run across an officer who treats people differently because of their race. I know some officers who are sticklers and hard-asses, but they are tough on anybody, regardless of color. They police whites just as hard as they do blacks and hispanics. And these are both black and white officers. The most I find myself having to do is translate slang. I have never, in my experience, personally seen a situation that would warrant me having to step in and explain perception. Hell, I've run across more Hispanics that hate the police than other races COMBINED. Maybe it's just the area and agency that I'm with (*shrug*) and/or the people I work with.

However, when these situations arise that make national headlines, there are discussions about them amongst officers. In my experiences, officers call a spade a spade, and dislike crooked officers just as much as the public does. Just like I always say, those guys make the job that much harder for the ones that do it with integrity. Unfortunately I don't have a direct line to every officer out there, and I can't (and won't try to) speak for every officer and/or agency out there. I am blessed to work for a diverse agency who does it the right way.

BTW, I also live and work in the same community that I serve. IMO, it has its advantage, but for every advantage, I can come up with an equally strong disadvantage. I know where you are going with that, and there is something to be said for having a vested interest in a community, but there are other factors to consider that doesn't always make it the best idea.

The point I continually make that keeps getting twisted and misconstrued is really very simple. Every encounter with police that goes bad is not the fault of a crooked cop. I am simply tired of people trying everything they can to place blame on law enforcement for tragedies that could have (and would have) been avoided if not for the criminal behavior that INITIATED the contact between person and police. Does that mean the police are automatically justified in any action they take? HELL NO. I'm just saying, for better or worse, the police don't get called just to say hi and shoot the shat. The police get called when people can't handle a problem or situation on their own.

Just like the other thread (which, coincidentally, many of you folks won't touch) from the chase in Houston. Mofo ran for at least 15 minutes at 100mph from the police, crashed into 3 people (1 pretty severely), gets out of the car, reaches back into the car, and is killed by the police....Black guy, and what appeared to be white cops. And you guessed it, the next day on the news, mother is questioning why the police shot an unarmed man, instead of staying in their cars and "running demands".....With all that is going on, we are quick to deflect from our own criminal actions to blame someone. All I'm saying is that wrong is wrong, PERIOD. It has no color, it has no profession, none of that. WRONG is WRONG.

Is that enough of an answer?
 
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