SODOM and GOMORRA


Just sharing my EXPERIENCE with the TRUTH. If that does not count as evidence for anyone reading, that is okay. My only intent was to offer a PERSONAL perspective.

I'm just trying to figure out how you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you've never sinned while asleep. Being asleep is similar to being unconscious.
If that's true, how do you know what you were thinking for 34 whole years? It's virtually impossible because most people have no idea what they think about when they're asleep, yet you make the claim that you've done so for 34 years.
 
JH, that's because those people focused more on the messenger and not the message. When a person truly knows & understands God's Word, they have (or know to ask God for) for the spirit of discernment. For people who are Christians and/or Believers, they know to use the most valuable resource that Jesus left us with, the Holy Spirit. Anyone person who truly wants to be saved and led to Jesus will be done so by God. He wants a relationship with us and won't lead a willing heart and spirit to a place where they can't feel or experience His presence. Nor will He lead them to a place where the messenger isn't obedient to Him.

The sooner EVERYONE realizes that pastors, preachers, ministers, etc are flesh and not above temptation and sin, the better. That's why Paul said we (Christians/Believers) are to pray for such people in authority to lead peaceable lives. Being called by God has never exempted any pastor from temptation or sin.


So True!!! But you have some mega TV pastors think that they are God.
 



I have been on vacation "twice" and JR is still debating -

I am watching Waytt Earp and thinking about what am I going to do today - seem like I am controlling what I am thinking :D
 
I have been on vacation "twice" and JR is still debating -

I am watching Waytt Earp and thinking about what am I going to do today - seem like I am controlling what I am thinking :D

But you're awake, not asleep. Do you stop thinking when you go to sleep?
 
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

What if God made Himself human and lived among natural man: Would natural man love the works of God; Would natural man love God’s word; but most of all, Would Natural Man Love God?


Luke 19:14. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

If natural man hated God in the flesh and eventually killed Him, should it be a surprise if man hates God’s word, when such is presented by man?

John 15:18-19. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

As Christians we are not commanded nor encouraged to enter into discussions, disputes and/or debates with natural men who despises God’s word.

Why?

1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

John 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.



As Christians, we are commanded to proclaim God’s word and leave it to God to make His word effectual. When we engage in endless debates with non-believers we allow God’s word to be mocked, belittled and blasphemed; such does not give glory to God. Also, engaging in such feeds only our pride (which God Hates) and allows us to promote the evil we seek to suppress. Even if we assume to have won one of these debates, such give glory to man (us), not God.

If you find no truth in my words, Please accept His words

Matthew 7:6. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Matthew 15:14. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Proverbs 9:7-8 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.


Good Day and God Bless
 
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

What if God made Himself human and lived among natural man: Would natural man love the works of God; Would natural man love God’s word; but most of all, Would Natural Man Love God?


Luke 19:14. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

If natural man hated God in the flesh and eventually killed Him, should it be a surprise if man hates God’s word, when such is presented by man?

John 15:18-19. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

As Christians we are not commanded nor encouraged to enter into discussions, disputes and/or debates with natural men who despises God’s word.

Why?

1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

John 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.



As Christians, we are commanded to proclaim God’s word and leave it to God to make His word effectual. When we engage in endless debates with non-believers we allow God’s word to be mocked, belittled and blasphemed; such does not give glory to God. Also, engaging in such feeds only our pride (which God Hates) and allows us to promote the evil we seek to suppress. Even if we assume to have won one of these debates, such give glory to man (us), not God.

If you find no truth in my words, Please accept His words

Matthew 7:6. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Matthew 15:14. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Proverbs 9:7-8 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.


Good Day and God Bless

Awesome!!
 
illinijag; [QUOTE said:
As Christians we are not commanded nor encouraged to enter into discussions, disputes and/or debates with natural men who despises God’s word.

This is one of the biggest excuses religious leaders use. I hear this over and over again. Folks are not allowed to think for themselves. Why do these leaders do this? Because many of them know that what's in the bible oftentimes is not provable. Many religious leaders KNOW much of it's not provable but they don't want their flock to become educated and find out, so what do they tell them? To not debate at all because it will cause the members to begin thinking for themselves and use their own brain instead of depending on being spoon-fed by men who want to remain in power and who SELF-PROCLAIM that they're just protecting the flock from the evil bible haters.

1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

In most cases, I don't receive the things mentioned in the bible because it's proven to be inaccurate. It has nothing to do with not having spiritual discernment.
For instance, I don't believe the sun stopped in midstream for 24 hours just so a ragtap band of nomads could win an insignificant war.
I don't believe evil spirits cause diseases but the bible teaches this. Not one time are microscopic organisms mentioned in the bible, not one time. Why? Because ancient nomadic men didn't know about them. If their god was "all that", HE WOULD'VE REVEALED SUCH VITAL KNOWLEDGE. No such thing occurred. More evidence that the bible is purely "man-made" and man-written.
I believe in the equality of women. I don't believe that daughters should be sold to their rapists and forced to marry her rapist for life as taught in the bible.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This kingdom hasn't been seen by anyone. If it has, where is it? The best they can come up with is that "it's in my heart". Again, that's not evidence, that's faith.
In addition, there are 30,000 denominations with differing beliefs. How can the thousands of denominations be apart of the same kingdom when they're so divided?

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

It's not a matter of not understanding, it's a matter of providing a small thing called "evidence" to support that speech.

John 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

A person who follows another based on no evidence is a very naive person.

As Christians, we are commanded to proclaim God’s word and leave it to God to make His word effectual. When we engage in endless debates with non-believers we allow God’s word to be mocked, belittled and blasphemed; such does not give glory to God. Also, engaging in such feeds only our pride (which God Hates) and allows us to promote the evil we seek to suppress. Even if we assume to have won one of these debates, such give glory to man (us), not God.

I suppose the man named Paul would highly disagree. He spoke and debated with others with differing beliefs on a DAILY basis in the market places. According to your theory, that makes him a very haughty person for doing so.
Seems like when some religious folks are asked to provide evidence of such and such from the bible, some become defensive and run to this excuse.
If politicians or researchers ran from questions and debates, some would say that they're trying to hide something and they would be suspicious of them. Why do religious folks get a "pass" for doing the same thing? Sounds a bit hypocritical.
If one has irrefutable proof and evidence that what he or she is putting forth irrefutable truth, why be fearful of engaging in a civil debate? This has nothing to do with vanity and pride. Sometimes it can lead to humility which is just the opposite of pride.

If you find no truth in my words, Please accept His words

Matthew 7:6. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

This could be said of anybody. The scientist, Galileo, tried to enlighten Christian leaders by telling them that the sun didn't revolve around the Earth, but the Earth revolved around the sun. Instead of looking into what he was saying, they tried to kill this brilliant scientist. He was trying to give something good to them and they rejected it. Who were the "dogs" in this case?
The difference with Galileo and the biblical supporters is that he had measurable evidence, something concrete that he could produce. Galileo wasn't leaning on faith, he was leaning on measurable evidence and data.
Most who support the words of the bible don't provide this. They only provide verses which anyone can do. That's called "faith".

Matthew 15:14. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

This could apply to any subject. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with this.

Proverbs 9:7-8 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

If one can provide actual evidence to support his theory, acceptance shouldn't be a problem, however if what one is trying to convey as truth, comes with no evidence but only words or verses, one would be a fool to accept it.

For instance:
--There's no geological evidence to support the theory of a worldwide flood occurring 4,000 years ago as stated in the bible.
--There's no evidence in the historic annals of contemporary nations (Egyptians, Babylonians, Hittites, Ethiopians) providing proof that the sun stopped for 24 hours as stated in the bible.
--What person goes to the doctor with a disease to be cured of evil spirits causing his disease? The bible teaches that evil spirits cause diseases. We all know that bacteria and viruses cause diseases. These are only a few of the many unscientific and inaccurate historical data found in the bible. This is why folks question it's authenticity. Has nothing to do with hating the bible just for the sake of hating it.
In addition, no one knows who wrote the books of the bible. It's taken on faith by many that a god inspired the books.
In fact, the books of the bible were VOTED on by a group of men based on their personal theories and opinions. It had nothing to do with being inspired by a biblical god. The average person has no knowledge of this tidbit of vital information.
 
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Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

Awesome!!

God is truly Awesome in His Word and His Being; reflected in both Mercy and in Wrath.

In Mercy because He allowed and allows Haters to abuse Him for the sake of saving some of the very Haters, even some who railed and rails against Him.

One Example in Scripture is Two Haters on the Cross:

Matthew 27:44 the thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.


One Hater received Grace based on the actual work (the wrath of God on God) he was currently witnessing:

Luke 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

This is a concept foreign to man and not too well understood by those who are saved by the Grace/Mercy of God. The world can never understand how the Most Powerful Entity (God) can lower Himself to be Crushed, Crucified, Demeaned and Debased by common man. Such an act offends man’s pride and rattles his view of the god of his imagination.

God is awesome in Wrath because He is HOLY and JUST; and will apply justice in the form of righteous judgment in matters of sin. God cannot and will not suffer any man (saint or sinner) to escape His Wrath. Yet, those who are saved by His Grace have/will suffer His Wrath in Christ.

Exodus 34:7. Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

The Peace which God provides does not contradict God’s Wrath. The Peace of God is the Peace made between man and God based on the Person (Righteous Life which fulfilled God's law) and Works (Wrath/Payment for man’s sin) of Jesus Christ. God is a Perfect Judge Who is Just (no reduced sentence or early probation).

Deuteronomy 10:17. For the Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Deuteronomy 10:17 NKJV. "For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.


As this relates to the topic of this thread, the People of Sodom and Gomorra encountered A Holy God and received wrath/judgment, which is a shadow of the final Judgment we all will receive. In this court of judgment, not attending is not an option.

Hebrews 9:27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

:lecture:In Judgment, Christ will either be your victim or your Savior; thus, you will respectively receive Wrath or Mercy from a HOLY, Just and Awesome God.


Good Day and God Bless
 
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Acts 17:11. Trust yet verify. That means you can have a belief however that belief must be provable in order to be genuine. If it's not provable in historical, geological, archaeological or scientific terms one has no obligation to accept it.

Exodus 34:7. Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

How is it being just to visit the sins committed by the father upon the children and children's children who had never taken part in the sin? That's not being just at all and no form of explaining can justify this. This is the apex of injustice.
If I committed a crime, I should be the one to suffer for that crime. My children, grandchildren, great great grandchildren and great, great great grandchildren had nothing to do with my crimes, yet if I followed the above verse, they would be charged as guilty because of MY sin.
That's ludricous and evil. This verse alone show that the bible is man-made. What just, honest and pure being of love would ever dream of thinking of inspiring these words? None that I know of.

In addition to the above, let's just say the story is true. If the the biblical god is a loving, just and merciful god, why scorch to death live innocent babies, innocent little girls, innocent women and innocent elderly women, who weren't apart of the supposed crimes of sexual perverseness? Why cause them to suffer these terrible deaths when they were innocent bystanders?
Is it showing love to scorch to death a live innocent baby? This is not an act that's consistent with love and mercy no matter how one chooses to interpret the story.

If the biblical god is an "all-knowing" god, surely he could've found a better way to separate the good people from the bad people of the cities. What stopped him from doing so? Was he showing mercy for killing and burning alive innocent baby girls, boys, women and elderly folks? Was that showing justice? I'd have to say "NO" with emphasis.
Think of all of the tyrants of history. This sounds just like one of them. Each of them had no regard for human life nor did they have regard for human justice. History records dozens of human tyrants with similar traits of character.

It's very difficult for me to fathom that a god of pure love, mercy, kindness, goodness, patience and peace as having committed such dastardly acts to the complete innocent.
This is one of the reasons why I can believe that the story is fictional and man-made and why? Because again, this is exactly how human tyrants and despots throughout history have conducted themselves.

As far as providing actual evidence to support a story of Sodom and Gomorrah, I'm still hoping to read a post providing (independent of the bible) historical, geological, archaelological and/or scientific data from the supporters of the story.
Is it wrong to request such information?

I understand the part about faith, but as someone has posted in his signature, Acts 17:11, one should not only "trust" but they should "verify" as well. I totally agree with this.

Verification requires MORE than just posting verses from an already questionable source. It requires just what it says, which is actual evidence that's tangible, which can be measured and is historically provable.
 
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Savior (Jesus Christ).

In dealing with the thread topic "SODOM and GOMORRA" in matters of spiritual edification, please keep the following passages in mind. No additional commentary is needed, for in the following passages, God’s word speaks for itself. The Holy Spirit within (provided to all who are saved by Grace) will reveal its truth.

James 4

1. From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2. Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6. But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11. Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
13. Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14. Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
17. Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


:clap:What amazing passages…WHAT AN AMAZING GOD!!!!

Good Day and God Bless


Again, this message is for those who are saved by Grace through the Person and Work of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As with all messages that exhorts the Lord and Savior, this is to all who would have a listening ear. However, to those who hate God’s word, please feel free to disregard; lest through me I have caused you to find offense in Holy God I so faithfully serve.
 
But you're awake, not asleep. Do you stop thinking when you go to sleep?

Good question, I have not read any reasearch to say yea of nay.

However, the brain continues to function and perhaps performing, calculating, sorting, recalling, deleating and storing millions / billion bits of information while we are sleeping.

I do know this:


Philippians 4:8

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things


When I focus on this, I have peaceful dreams and when I "act a fool" my dreams are not peaceful.
 
Good question, I have not read any reasearch to say yea of nay.

However, the brain continues to function and perhaps performing, calculating, sorting, recalling, deleating and storing millions / billion bits of information while we are sleeping.

I do know this:


Philippians 4:8

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things


When I focus on this, I have peaceful dreams and when I "act a fool" my dreams are not peaceful.

I thought you said that you don't think about anything when you're asleep. What does your bible say about this?
I don't think about the bible, but I sleep soundly, peaceful and still wake up in good health.
I don't need a crutch to stand on. I choose to take responsibility for my own actions.

I certainly don't blame any satan for my actions and I don't give credit to any holy spirit for the good that I do.
 
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