"True Confessions of an Ex-Christian"


JSU*Toi

JSU*Toi

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DO NOT MOVE!!!

True Confessions of an Ex-Christian by Min. Paul Scott


I became a better ?Christian? when I stopped being one.


While the obvious contradictory nature of this statement may be overwhelming, the essence of this pronouncement reaches deep into the Blackness of my soul and brings forth a great spiritual awakening that cannot be contained within the tiny religious box in which the European has placed me. Unfortunately, many of us remain trapped in the theological prison of Eurocentric Christianity from the cradle to the grave. We have suffered from the inability to break the spiritual chains that were placed on us by our oppressors and we have failed to define our relationship to the Creator from our own experience.

I am not the first who has come to the crossroads where European Christianity and Afrocentricity meet. Unfortunately, many have refused to articulate this feeling of alienation and have instead chosen to sit quietly on the pew in the back of the church trying to convince themselves that if they just sit through one more sermon, the lottery ticket in their pocket will hit and all their worries will be over?.

The relationship between Black folks and Christianity has been the subject of many essays, books and lectures and most would agree that what is called ?Christianity? was a religious practice forced on our ancestors. There is no denying the fact that Christianity has been used by the European as a form of nationalism and an agent of social control. The fallacy of a blue eyed blond haired Jesus and the factuality of the Blackness of the original Hebrew Israelites has also been discussed at length by some of our greatest minds.

But the question here is can one be both Afrocentric and Christian or is the term a misnomer such as Communist-Capitalist, Republican-Democrat, African-American ?

Many Afrikan people see Christianity as something that was forced upon our ancestors with whips and chains, our parents by a giant propaganda machine and ourselves with a belt if we did not get up in time for Sunday school. Under these circumstances, we had no choice but to become Christians. Since it was forced upon us, we did not have a chance to make the connection between the religion and our Afrikan spirituality. So the thing that was supposed to make us FREE became the tool of our continued oppression.

Sadly, many Black folks may never feel the need to grow beyond the theological teachings of their childhood. As long as they have FAITH in a God who will show up when the bills are due, send them the perfect spouse and forgive them for sneaking around with a member of the usher board , they are willing to go with the flow without once asking themselves; what does it really mean to be a Christian and who makes that decision?

But Christianity becomes problematic when one begins to discover his ?Blackness? and trades in his comic books for books on African history and starts spending less time in the clubs vibin? to the latest Hip Hop jam and more time attending lectures about the struggle of Afrikan people. What happens when these two worlds collide; the immovable object of Eurocentric Christianity and the irresistible force of Afrocentricity. Can Christianity with its strong Euro-nationalistic overtones coexist with the quest for Black self determination?

This conflict often leaves the Afrocentric Christian isolated. Alienated from the church because he is Afrocentric and alienated from the Afrocentrists because he is a Christian. On one hand the church is saying that he is going to hell for getting involved in ?that Black stuff? and on the other hand the Afrocentrist hides behind the shield of Black Unity and religious tolerance while all the while belittling his religious FAITH. Does it make one less of a Child of God because he refuses to let the white man define his existence or his relationship with the Creator. Or does it make one less valuable to the struggle of Afrikan people because he follows the teachings of a Black revolutionary born in Northeast Africa? Does using the words of the original African Hebrew Israelites (the Bible) make one less Afrocentric than a Brother or Sister who has chosen another path to the Creator?

The reason why the white supremacist system never wanted us to dig below the surface of Christianity is because they have always known that the religion that they transported to Rome is African at its core. And the revelation of this would signal the end of the white control of the minds and spirits of Afrikan people.

But the question remains can one still answer to a Roman derogatory term and claim Afrocentricity ? And if I am no longer a Christian how do I define my religious convictions ?

The answer to this goes back to our power to define who we are and our relationship with the Creator. My personal conversion from an Afrocentric Christian to a Messianic Afrikan along with the rejection of a blue eyed Jesus Christ and the acceptance of Yeshua, the Black Revolutionary Messiah was more than just an exercise of semantics; it was the missing link between my religious belief system and African spirituality. As far as trying to put a name on my religion; If Yeshua taught that he is the WAY, TRUTH and the LIFE, then my religion is the TRUTH that is the WAY to a better LIFE for Afrikan people.
When it is all said and done, after all of our prayers, chants and religious symbolism, isn?t that what we are all striving towards.

Each day we strive to gain more KNOWLEDGE, WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING of the Creator and we are all stumbling in the darkness searching for the LIGHT but as they say in the church? ?We will understand it better by and by.?


Min. Paul Scott represents the Messianic Afrikan Nation. He can be reached at minpaulscott@yahoo.com.
 
This is one of the reasons that I believe in a Supreme Being instead of settling for one religion. Excellent article because it speaks the truth.....it defines what is missing from the African American culture in America and it aids us in getting away from that "Group Think" mentality and allows us to look at issues with a full and true persepctive.
 

God, the true God of the Bible, never said to be affiliated with any religions. He just wants us to follow the example of His Son, Jesus.

Christianity = relationship w/God-Father through the God-Son??it?s linked relationship, NOT Religion. It?s about striving to live like Jesus regardless of whether he was white or black, blue eyed or cross eyed.

When we think spiritual (love, truth, relationship), rather than just physical all the time (black, white, religion), we'll not just have knowkedge about God, but actually come to know Him.

I wonder if this guy was really a Christian in the first place.
 
I hate how we jump on eachother when we interject the aspect of race into religion. For hundreds of years we have been lied to about the presence and the role of Africans in the Bible. Now that the truth is coming out, that the majority of the figures in the Old and New Testaments were of African descent, instead of European, we are so quick to say that it doesn't matter what color these people were. If it didn't matter why lie in the 1st place?

All religions can claim that they are a way of life, but when they become organized hierarchies that have more to do with rituals and power than the teachings of the originator(s) problems are created.

The question was raised (paraphrasing), "how can you love God who you have not seen but not your brother who you see everyday?" That leads to the idea that you can not love your brother until you 1st love yourself and you cannot love yourself if you are taught that your very state of being is negative(evil) and that you are to have no rewards until you die, therefore we are taught to suffer our entire lives. This state of "living" does not encourage positive thought nor action for the betterment of self and society.
 
If it didn't matter why lie in the 1st place?
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Who lied to you? Did a white portrait of Jesus with blue eyes in a catholic church lie to you? When YOU READ the bible, did someone tell you that your understanding was a lie? If ?they? did lie, and you find out that it is in fact a lie, move on. Don?t spend more time on it especially by starting a pro-black religion.
taught that your very state of being is negative(evil) and that you are to have no rewards until you die, therefore we are taught to suffer our entire lives.
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What book, person, group, did you get that from? Were you taught this growing up? I read the bible / go to church and have never been taught anything like this. The bottom line is we (Christians) go through this life w/Christ, we have our success through Christ, we?re more than conquerors through Christ, we are somebody w/Christ so if someone tries to teach us otherwise, who cares? We know the truth. We trust our own info from His Spirit not because of our religion from man, but because of our r e l a t i o n s h i p w/Jesus.

Salvation and a relationship with God is NEVER a function of color, it?s a function of Jesus, per the Bible, period.

When you focus on color, gender, social status, theolgy, etc THAT'S when religions start to form.
 
Originally posted by nevaehinvesting
Who lied to you? Did a white portrait of Jesus with blue eyes in a catholic church lie to you? When YOU READ the bible, did someone tell you that your understanding was a lie? If ?they? did lie, and you find out that it is in fact a lie, move on. Don?t spend more time on it especially by starting a pro-black religion.
What book, person, group, did you get that from? Were you taught this growing up? I read the bible / go to church and have never been taught anything like this.
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The same "expletiveS" that lied to you. I am not a catholic, but I have seen that image in Black Baptist Churches in the South. When I read the Bible I see that one of the main ideas of it is to study. I don't see this study as being limited to the Old or New Testament, but "that their is a sign in everything" therefore we must study it as well as nature and all things that make up "THE TRUTH" for which we are to be born, live, and die by. That being said, why hide the truth? "Let your light (Truth) shine"! It is the work of devils to deceive the people and impede their path to a true relationship with their creator.



I have a real problem with the "move on" philosophy. I am in favor of it in the sense of teaching the word (Truth) to the people and leaving it up to their free will to follow or not. However, too many of us would accept injustice and "put it in God's hands" when he has given us a brain to deal with the problems we face. When you witness a lie and know better and do not try to correct it for those who do not know, you are as guilty as the devil that created it ("Am I not my brother's keeper"). This is not following the example Jesus who "died so that we may all have a right to the tree of life". He was willing to give his life for those who had been misled by the priests. We must always be vigilant advocates of TRUTH if not for ourselves for future generations.

I'M NOT BEING PRO BLACK I'M PRO TRUTH!

By the way you attacked the article, it shows that you have been taught those things I referenced. No one ever jumped down the throats of Europeans when they claimed European dominance of the biblical characters, but when Africans want to make more valid claims, there is an uproar about "color doesn't matter" or "move on".:rolleyes: What's worst of all is that this uproar comes from AFRICANS.:(
 
The move on thinking ? What I meant by ?move on? was , just do like Jesus told the disciples to do in that situation and, ?kick the dust off of your feet and move on.? You don?t have argue people down or start new religions, just say what you have to say and keep going. You?ll have people who disagree and refuse the Truth even through it?s starring them in the face but follow Jesus? instruction instead of ?trying? to use your brain to correct that situation.

I was never taught anything about color in the bible growing up. By the time I started seeking God for myself it was easy for me to see that color was a BIG issue with man, but NOT with God.

Black vs White vs Mexican vs Chinese vs Iraqi vs etc seems to make up this world and we've allowed it in the in Church. Color doesn't matter because if everybody in the bible was black, salvation would still be offered to whites and vice versus.

A lot of people will never understand the meaning of ?We battle not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual stuff?. I?ve actually met some self proclaimed black Christians who don?t like white people and vice versus. ???

God?s plan is not one of confusion for His variety of children but keeping us at odds, because of color, seems to be the Devils ?bread and butter? play. Works every time on most.

Again, in your study / search for truth, what have you found to be the spiritual significance of color? Biblically speaking? If color really matters to God, show me where biblically.
 
How do you know that something is a lie unless truth be revealed? Once truth is revealed it is up to the free will of the individual to accept or reject it. The servant's role is to present and then move on. If I'm not mistaken, the instructions from Jesus to "move on" were given after he was asked what to do if "the word"(truth) was not accepted once presented.

You mean to tell me that you never watched "The Ten Commandments" or any movies about any of the biblical characters growing up? You never saw any paintings of Mary, or Jesus? You never saw pictures of Adam and Eve? You never saw a picture of "The Last Supper" or any angels or biblical characters on Church fans? You are truly a blessed individual to not have been witness to any of these teachings!

Your ideal of a colorblind soceity is noble, but the reality is that it matters. It mattered when the Pope sanctioned the slave trade because we were "heathens" who needed to be saved. There would be no need of us to teach "the Blackman, Blackman, Blackman" if the Europeans had not 1st taught, "the whiteman, whiteman, whiteman".

"We battle not against flesh and blood, but principalites and spiritual wickedness in high places". What is more wicked than institutionilized racism that becomes self perpetuating?

I think we were given a description of "The Son of Man" because God wanted us to have an idea of who to look for upon his return. Daniel gives that description.
 
Of course I have to jump in here. Anyone who attended the Martin Luther King Week for Peace events in New Orleans back in 1998 may remember that the keynote speaker was Dr. Cornell West. They would remember that the last question was posed by a brother from Tulane, who happens to be typing this message. My question was along the lines of this article. Why do we as Black folks cling so dearly and attach ourselves to a set of beliefs that were a major factor in our enslavement and segregation?

Anyone who claims to have The Truth as given to them by some "wise person" or through a book written by several humans with parts editted and omitted by other humans, all of whom had an agenda, is not presenting the truth.

If a relationship with a dead Hebrew rebel is the only way to find "savation", then one has to ask about those who died before this guy came about and those who were around before his fan club converted them.

Furthermore, if one assumes that there is a heaven, and if Jesus is the only way there, then where is Gandhi? How about Malcolm? I've asked this question several times on these boards, and I have yet to receive a response.

I've heard this talk about Christianity not being a religion; this is a rather new movement and ploy by various groups to try and separate themselves from other religious movements; in fact, one could argue that the "non-denominational movement" is itself another religious movement. In defining religion, we find that Christianity fits the description to a tee, especially those who believe that the Bible in inerrant and that it should be followed literally. OK, while they say that they follow it literally, that is actually not a fact, but that is for another discussion. The bottom line is that if you profess a faith in Jesus and follow the Bible, you are a part of a religion.

The purpose of organized religion is to control people. The purpose of individual spirituality is to grow and to learn. The outcome of both is to re-link (taking the word religion to its roots) with the Divine. Thus, all people who have a spiritual basis have a relationship with the Divine, whether that is God, Allah, Jesus, The Goddess, et al. These conflicts between faiths and attempts to convert others is all a waste of time and energy, and only serves the purpose of further schism among humanity. If we truly love each other, then not only would we allow each other to have our own beliefs and relationship with the Divine, but we would also openly and honestly try to learn about and understand each other. No one has to change, and if they do, that's fine. The absolute LEAST that we should be willing to do is tolerate each other; if you don't agree with another's beliefs, at least have the decency to live and let live. If you don't want to try to understand them, just let them be.

But don't go to someone like Jack Chick or other hatemongers to learn about another's beliefs. Go to those who practice a different faith to learn about them.

As I have said before, Love is the Law.
 
Another essay similar to this topic

What follows is an essay written in 1996 by a Pagan. It is basically an open letter to Christians about sharing the Gospel with Pagans. I suggest that Christians read this and apply the lessons herein to their attempts to share the Gospel with ANY non-Christian out there. You have to realize that most of us who aren't Christian are either apostates or were born non-Christian. The former have already heard the Gospel and found it lacking. The latter, given that it's 2003 and we live in America which is close to 90% Christian, have been sufficiently exposed to the Gospel--especially if we are African American. But anyway, read on...

How to Share the Gospel with Pagans
by Gwydion
For starters, I am not a Christian. I am and have been Pagan (Wiccan in particular) for several years now. So why am I writing this? Because I understand that believing Christians feel they have an obligation to share their religion with others (I was Christian once and participated actively in missionary work at that time). I have also observed over a number of years that believing Christians tend, however unintentionally, to ignore their own strengths, and to consistently put their worst face forward when dealing with those who do not share their faith. This is especially obvious when they are dealing with Wiccans, Druids, or other "pagan" religions. I have thus written this outline in the hope that it will help Christians understand better who and what Pagans really are, and, in the process become more effective in sharing their beliefs.

Don't Attack
First and foremost, never, and I repeat, never attack. I make a point of reading every Christian tract on Paganism I encounter on the Internet or elsewhere, and the overwhelming majority of them are based on attacking Pagan religions, and those who practice them as "evil, " "devil-worshippers" and "calling them to repentance before they are doomed to hell forever." I have written to the authors of these tracts, asking exactly what they meant to accomplish by writing what they did. The two purposes that are always mentioned are...

1. to protect Christians from being "lured away" from the true faith.
2. to persuade Pagans to return to Christ.

Unfortunately, attacks such as these usually fail totally on both counts.
To begin with, I have never yet seen anyone converted back to Christianity by threats and attacks on them . I say "back" for a good reason. Unlike the majority of Christians in this country who are raised in their faith and accept it almost as a matter of course, most Pagans have made a conscious decision to become what they are - usually after a long period of study, reflection, and practice. They thus have a strong personal and spiritual commitment to their religion. Remember also that the great majority of Pagans in the U.S. come from Judeo-Christian family and cultural backgrounds, and a scripture-filled attack usually does little more than confirm that they made the right decision in the first place.
Another important point to remember is that, to most Pagans, the need to attack others is viewed as a sign of fear and lack of self-confidence on the part of the attacker. There is an common expression in the Pagan community which runs -"Fear conquers understanding. Understanding conquers fear." It is generally felt that if a person has a strong grounding and foundation in their own religion, they will not feel any need to fear - or attack - others. While a fiery assault on Paganism makes many Christians feel better about their faith, and themselves as a "defender of the truth", the Pagan sees it as a kind of spiritual immaturity on the part of the attacker, and as a result will take neither the person, nor the message, very seriously.
Finally, attacks frequently have an odd way of backfiring. No matter what the pamphlets may say to the contrary, the overwhelming majority of Pagans are fundamentally good and decent people, who live their religion to the best of their ability, and raise their children to become mature, responsible members of their communities. They usually have numerous friends and relatives who recognize them as such, and who often don't appreciate strangers' attacks any more than the Pagans themselves do.
Last year during the holiday season, a young woman in her early twenties and her young son came into the Hope Mission, a local charity organization which provides food and shelter to the homeless. She definitely looked a little different, she had a nose ring on and was wearing a pentagram necklace. A man working at the mission suddenly confronted her and demanded to know why she was there. Before she could answer he saw the pentagram and shouted, "You're one of those witches that was in the park back on Halloween!" He knew because he had participated in a church-organized demonstration against the "open circle" the local Pagan group had held there. He then became very hostile, calling her an evil devil-worshipper in front of everyone present and shouting that "her kind" had no business coming into a Christian center and that she would receive nothing from them. To her credit, she stood her ground, and a moment later several of the other volunteers came to her defense. It turned out that the woman and her son had come to the mission to donate food for the holidays, and after doing so left without a word to the man who had berated her so publicly. The workers who had stood by the woman, however, had plenty to say - mostly about her generosity in donating the food despite his rudeness and how he had had no right to talk to her like that, even if she did belong to a group that the church did not approve of. They seemed to feel his conduct to be "un-Christian" at the very least, and hardly the kind of example that would make the young woman he'd insulted want to come back to church. In the end, he had little choice but to turn away looking like the perfect fool he had been.

Get your facts straight
If you are going to have any chance at all in sharing your message, it is critical that you understand clearly what Pagans actually believe. You don't have to agree with these beliefs, but it is important that you see Pagans as they see themselves. The tracts I have read are usually filled with a fascinating assortment of pseudo-information regarding Pagan beliefs, usually accompanied by numerous Biblical scriptures, often used completely out of context. They are a poor way to learn about Pagan beliefs, as they are almost always written by hostile outsiders who have little or no personal experience with Pagans.
To start with, Pagans do not worship the devil. The simple fact is that to the great majority of Pagans, the Christian devil has no more meaning than the Christian god does. This may be even more disturbing to many Christians, but to understand Paganism this first point must be clear. I don't doubt for one minute that there are some people in this world who actually participate in "devil-worship" as Christians see it, and that those people may do some very sick, disgusting things, but you might be surprised to find that Pagans are as offended by such people as Christians are.
Pagans do not renounce Christ. There seems to be a common belief the writers of these tracts that when Pagans are initiated into their religion they renounce Christianity. This usually accompanies claims that Pagans are devil-worshippers. Again, while there may be people that worship the Christian devil and such people may renounce Christ, Pagans do not. Neither Christ nor the devil ever appear in Pagan initiations, or in any other Pagan rituals for that matter.
Pagans do not hold "grotesque Satanic rituals" on Halloween. Actually Pagans seldom, if ever, refer to this day as Halloween. To us, it is called Samhain (pronounced sow-en), a word which means "summer's end" To the ancient Celtic people it was New Years day, and many Pagans celebrate the new year at this time. Others celebrate the new year at Yule. To most Pagans Samhain is a sacred day - a time when the last harvests are gathered in before winter's arrival, and the time when family members who have passed away are remembered and honored. It is also considered a time of reflection, a time to look back on the year's accomplishments and make plans for the future. Finally, it is the time when Pagans reflect on their own mortality, and the time when the focus of life turns from physical concerns to spiritual ones. Samhain is only one of eight times of the year that Pagans celebrate - all of them focusing on a particular season or phase of life.
Pagans do not sacrifice children, animals, or anything else on their altars. Tract writers seem fascinated with the idea of animal and human sacrifice and this is always included in lurid descriptions of alleged Pagan rituals. Do modern Pagans sacrifice animals or people? No. Did they do so in the ancient past? Possibly. Sacrifices were part of nearly all ancient religions, the Biblical Hebrews being no exception. There are detailed descriptions in the Old Testament as to exactly what to sacrifice, and how it was to be done in order to be accepted. The idea of sacrificing was and still is that you must give up something valuable to you in order to gain something even more valuable or important. As many people in ancient times took this in a literal, rather than in a spiritual sense, and since they were primarily farmers and shepherds, the logical sacrifices were some of their crops or their animals. In many cultures human life was considered the ultimate value, and a human sacrifice was seen as the ultimate offering to god. According to the Bible Abraham was told by no less than Jehovah himself to take his only son and sacrifice him as a sign of his faith. While this turned out to be only a "test, " and Abraham ultimately did not have to do it - it was clear that the idea of human sacrifice and its meaning was not unknown to him - he did as he felt he had been commanded to do. As the concept of personal sacrifice moved from the physical to the spiritual realm, actual physical sacrifices ceased, and is now no more approved of in Paganism than it is in Christianity. Are there individuals and groups who still do it? No doubt. Is it a part of Paganism as a whole? No.
Pagans have no interest in luring your children out of the church. There are two very simple reasons for this. First, Pagans do not proselytize. They have no missionary program. In fact, it is not very easy to become a Pagan. Pagans generally don't teach their religion unless asked to do so by someone who has specifically sought them out. They also tend to carefully screen those who come to them, and many are rejected if they turn out to be seeking instruction for the wrong reasons - rebelling against parents and their parents' faith, desire for power, to be "cool" or "different." Religion is viewed by most Pagans to be a very personal and sacred matter, something never to be imposed on another against their wishes.
The second reason is that Pagans do not generally believe that Paganism is the "only true way." This doesn't mean that they believe that "anything is okay if you are a good person." What it does mean is that Pagans are less concerned with which particular religion a person follows, and more concerned with what kind of person their religion helps them to become. They tend to see religion as a road leading to the summit of a mountain (the summit being the ultimate goal of religion). People tend to start at different points of the mountain's base and work their way up, and there are many roads that lead to the summit. Christianity and Paganism are only two of them. There are many others. The closer to the summit one gets, the closer the roads become to each other, until they all meet at the top. Now, if you are preparing to share the gospel with Pagans, you clearly don't agree with this view, but you need to understand it, as promoters of a "one true way" are often seen through Pagan eyes as "taking the road to be the destination."
A final note. Don't attempt to tell Pagans what they "really" believe in, especially if your information is based on the tracts I've encountered. Imagine being told by a Buddhist that the Last Supper is clear evidence that Christians practice a form of ritual cannibalism each Sunday. When you attempt to explain to them the actual meaning of the Last Supper, they interrupt you to say, "It says right in the Bible that Jesus himself said 'Eat, this is my body' and 'Drink, this is my blood.' Eating a man's body or drinking their blood to take on their attributes is a common idea among savage peoples that practice cannibalism!" They then tell you that you may think that the Last Supper has a deep spiritual meaning, but that it's actually a barbaric rite and quote teachings from the Buddha that "prove" it.. When you press them to tell you exactly how they could possibly "know" such a thing - obviously you, as a practicing, believing Christian, should know far more about the subject than they possibly could - they reply that they read it in a pamphlet called "How to respond to the Christian missionaries" by a well-known Buddhist proselytizing organization (yes, this is a real example from a real tract).

Accept the Fact that there is a Dark Side to Christian history
- and then Focus on the Positive.
When you begin to talk about Christ to Pagans, you are likely to be presented with a number of negative comments about the Christian church (yes, many Pagans are touchy about the attacks leveled on them in the media and, being human, may very well do some attacking of their own - it's not right, but you may well come out understanding why attacks on others just don't work). Some of these comments will include the destruction of many cultures by missionaries - and the armies that always accompanied them, intolerance of other faiths, denigration of women by the church. These negative comments tend to bring out what I call the "defender of the faith" syndrome. They immediately rise to the church's defense, saying that these statements are simply not true, and denying that "real Christians" could ever do such a thing. Every negative allegation is either denied or explained away (there are evil people who used the Lord's name for their purpose, but that doesn't make Christianity evil).
The point here is that when people look at another faith, they are quick to see the negative side and slow to see the positive. The Inquisition (usually called "the burning times" by Pagans) did exist, and many innocent people -Christians as well as Pagans- were burned, tortured, and maimed in the name of "destroying the body to save the soul." Women were denigrated through much of Christian history (there was in fact a major church conference, attended by Thomas Aquinas among others which debated seriously whether women even had souls) and in some sects still are today. The massacre of cultures (and peoples) by missionaries and their armies did happen many times in history (although hardly by Christians alone), and the hate-tracts on Paganism I almost daily encounter on the Internet are clear enough example of the degree to which intolerance exists. I would love to be able to say that Paganism doesn't have it's dark side, but the Celts were not all "loving souls who hug trees, drink herb tea and wouldn't hurt a fly, " by any means. There were, and are today, many people who call themselves Pagan and then do some very unsavory and unpleasant things. The Roman emperors who declared themselves gods existed, as well as many other cruel and barbaric customs among different Pagan peoples. There are many unpleasant, negative facts about almost any religious group that does or has ever existed on the earth. But to focus on them is to miss the point.
Rather than becoming a "defender of the faith, " focus instead on the transforming power that the Christ can have on individual lives, and the positive factors of the faith. Does it surprise you that a Pagan writer can respect and even revere Jesus? It shouldn't. You will find out rapidly in working with Pagans that very few of them have any hostility to Christ whatsoever. The hostility you will encounter will be towards those who claim to be his representatives, and their unwillingness to let others claim the same right to worship in peace that they demand for themselves. Clearly you will not find this easy to accept, but, again it is crucial to understand Pagans as they understand themselves if you are to have any success sharing your message. There is a powerful and very positive side to Christ's teaching. Pagans are fully aware of both sides. It will be your task to emphasize the positive.

Treat Pagans as People First
In James Michener's book Hawaii, there is a incident where two missionaries, who had been working with the Hawaiians for many years clashed over the impending marriage of one of them to a Hawaiian woman. Despite the fact that the woman was a baptized, believing Christian, the marriage was fiercely condemned. Reverend Hale quoted Biblical scripture on how the marriage constituted "being yoked with unbelievers" and condemned his former friend for "consorting with the heathen." The response to this attack was a strong rebuke to what I have found to be the greatest mistake would-be teachers of the Gospel can make. He stated that "our work here is based upon a profound contradiction. You love the Hawaiians as souls to be saved, but you despise them as people."
Think carefully about this statement. On many occasions Christians have approached me in, what was at first, a friendly manner. Sometimes I was invited to their homes for dinner, sometimes to church social activities or services. There was a conspicuous effort to "get close" to me, and the topic of religion came up very often. This continued until it became clear that I wasn't going to jump into the baptismal pool right away, and that I was firmly committed to my religion. Then the "friendship" cooled off rapidly, phone calls ceased, and many times I was later treated with open hostility by the very people who had taken it upon themselves to approach me.
This is perhaps the most disturbing tendency Pagans encounter in Christians who would share the Gospel with them, and also one of the chief reasons Christians are often bluntly considered to be hypocrites in Pagan eyes. Pagans generally do not approach people solely for the purpose of sharing their religion, and if they become friends with someone it is real friendship, with the person. This is not to say that Christians don't do the same - I have also met many Christians who value friendship, and who accept me, even if they don't like my religions views. But a crucial question that any would-be missionary must ask themselves before they begin is whether they can be a genuine friend to those they would teach - a stay a friend even if those people don't accept their message. After all, one can never be sure where you're going to run into each other. Some of my Christian acquaintances are astonished that, as a Pagan, I support the right of students to meet together for prayer in a public school classroom if they wish to. I then ask them, "why not?" That right applies to all, and I would like to think that if a group of Pagan children wished to have a drumming circle in a classroom after school (much safer than many places I could think of) they would have the right to do so. If Muslim students wanted to meet and discuss their religion in a classroom after school, they should also have this right. And for those who don't have any religious belief - they have the same right NOT to participate.

Accept that You Can't Win Them All
Realize before you begin that you will not convert everyone you meet, and know when to stop. Many missionaries I have met seem to regard it as a personal failure if someone they are teaching decides not to join their church - or as a deliberate rejection of them. In most cases, neither is true. If a Pagan finally tells you that they have found their path, and wishes you well on yours, that simply means that you need to let go, and as one Mennonite pastor I heard put it, 'remember that I cannot see all things, and leave it to the Lord to judge." You don't have to accept their beliefs, or agree with them, but since you never know what the future may hold, suspend judgment. That is the spirit of religious tolerance (which never did mean you have to accept another religion - merely that everyone has a basic right to believe according to their conscience.
In closing, remember the Golden Rule - which in one form or another runs in all religions. Treat Pagans you would teach with the same respect, as people, that you would want for yourself. You may very well find yourself dealing with missionaries of other faiths one day (it happens - evangelical movements are growing rapidly among Muslims, Buddhists, for example). These guidelines should serve you just as well when you stand on the other side of the discussion - as the person they would convert.
Bright Blessings!
(a Pagan closing often used in writing)
Gwydion
 
Originally posted by nevaehinvesting

I wonder if this guy was really a Christian in the first place.
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Ah, the Scotsman Fallacy rears its head again. You don't know what was or is in his heart. I know that it frightens you to think that a "true Christian" would never leave Christianity, but it happens more often than you think.

Tell me, if someone professes to be an Atheist, but later determines that he believes in a god, was he a "true Atheist"?

How about an Agnostic? FWIW, Agnostism is probably the most intellectually honest position to take; none of us REALLY knows the truth.
 

I?ve seen bible characters portrayed as all white. I?ve seen them portrayed as all black. Would it make me a better or worse Christian by proving either case? Probably not. I?d win an argument, but not a soul.

When we talk about salvation, we talk about winning souls. When we talk about skin color and religions, we talk about winning debates.

God says go out and love / save the world. ?Salvation is for the Jew and Greek.? Unfortunately, just like in the bible days, Jews and Greeks (blacks and whites) focus more on each other than on the big picture, our Lord of all.

Example: Jesus purpose was to die for our sins. It wasn?t to heal the sick, though that was okay to do, it wasn?t to turn water into wine, though that was okay to do, it wasn?t to raise the dead, though that was also okay to do. All that extra stuff was kool, as long as He served his real purpose ? dying for our sins.

In the same way, true Christians have a purpose ? saving this world. It?s fine to prove that bible characters were black, as long as your saving souls. It?s fine to prove that God has hair like wool and bronze feet, as long as your saving souls. As long as we fulfill our purpose, then it?s fine to worry/debate about the other stuff that has nothing to do with eternal security.

I agree with more of what you're saying than what it may seem, I just see a couple of things in a much different light.

p.s. In regards to the bible, when we talk about color issues more than salvation issues, we're more in line with the devil's plan than God's plan.
 
Originally posted by nevaehinvesting
I?ve seen bible characters portrayed as all white. I?ve seen them portrayed as all black. Would it make me a better or worse Christian by proving either case? Probably not. I?d win an argument, but not a soul.

When we talk about salvation, we talk about winning souls. When we talk about skin color and religions, we talk about winning debates.

God says go out and love / save the world. ?Salvation is for the Jew and Greek.? Unfortunately, just like in the bible days, Jews and Greeks (blacks and whites) focus more on each other than on the big picture, our Lord of all.

Example: Jesus purpose was to die for our sins. It wasn?t to heal the sick, though that was okay to do, it wasn?t to turn water into wine, though that was okay to do, it wasn?t to raise the dead, though that was also okay to do. All that extra stuff was kool, as long as He served his real purpose ? dying for our sins.

In the same way, true Christians have a purpose ? saving this world. It?s fine to prove that bible characters were black, as long as your saving souls. It?s fine to prove that God has hair like wool and bronze feet, as long as your saving souls. As long as we fulfill our purpose, then it?s fine to worry/debate about the other stuff that has nothing to do with eternal security.

I agree with more of what you're saying than what it may seem, I just see a couple of things in a much different light.

p.s. In regards to the bible, when we talk about color issues more than salvation issues, we're more in line with the devil's plan than God's plan.
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Your a priori is that the world needs to be saved and that souls are at stake. Not everyone believes this, and IF souls were at stake, it's not HUMANS who do it.

Like you, I think that the Red Herring arguments about skin color and what not are more harmful than helpful. Our difference is that that I extend it further to include different views on soterology and belief.

If we accept that the Divine is our parent(s), then we should also accept that everyone's relationship with our parent(s) will be individual. I have a brother; both of us love our parents and our parents love us. However, they don't try to tell me or him to love them in the exact same way. When asking us to do something, they will phrase it differently when talking to one or the other. I don't talk to my parents about the same things that my brother does, and vice versa. We can acknowledge that our relationships are different. A Muslim and a Christian, for example, both have a relationship with God. Neither is loved more or less, and both are going to be "saved" as their beliefs state.
 
And I'm sure you've seen this before:

Date: Eternity

From: GOD

To: My Children on Earth

re: Idiotic religious rivalries

My Dear Children (and believe me, that's all of you),

I consider myself a pretty patient Guy. I mean, look at the Grand Canyon. It took millions of years to get it right. And how about evolution? Boy, nothing is slower than designing that whole Darwinian thing to take place, cell by cell and gene by gene. I've even been patient through your fashions, civilizations, wars and schemes, and the countless ways you take Me for granted until you get yourselves into big trouble again and again.

But on this occasion of My Son's birthday, I want to let you know about some things that are starting to tick me off.

First of all, your religious rivalries are driving Me up a wall. Enough already! Let's get one thing straight: These are your religions, not Mine. I'm the Whole Enchilada; I'm beyond them all. Every one of your religions claims there's only one of Me (which, by the way, is absolutely true). But in the very next breath, each religion claims it's My favorite one. And each claims its bible was written personally by me, and that all the other bibles are man-made. Oh, Me. How do I even begin to put a stop to such complicated nonsense?

Okay, listen up now: I'm your Father and Mother, and I don't play favorites among My Children. Also, I hate to break it to you, but I don't write. My longhand is awful, and I've always been more of a "doer" anyway. So all your books, including the bibles, were written by men and women. They were inspired, remarkable people, but they also made mistakes here and there. I made sure of that, so that you would never trust a written word more than your own living Heart.

You see, one Human Being to me -- even a Bum on the street -- is worth more than all the holy books in the world. That's just the kind of Guy I Am. My Spirit is not an historical thing, It's alive right here, right now, as fresh as your next breath.

Holy books and religious rites are sacred and powerful, but not more so than the least of You. They were only meant to steer you in the right direction, not to keep you arguing with each other, and certainly not to keep you from trusting your own personal connection with Me.

Which brings Me to My next point about your nonsense: You act like I need you and your religions to stick up for Me or "win souls" for My Sake. Please, don't do Me any favors. I can stand quite well on my own, thank you. I don't need you to defend Me, and I don't need constant credit. I just want you to be good to each other.

And another thing: I don't get all worked up over money or politics, so stop dragging My name into your dramas. For example, I swear to Me that I never threatened Oral Roberts. I never rode in any of Rajneesh's Rolls Royces. I never told Pat Robertson to run for president, and I've never ever had a conversation with Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, or Jimmy Swaggart! Of course, come Judgement Day, I certainly intend to...

The thing is, I want you to stop thinking of religion as some sort of loyalty pledge to Me. The true purpose of your religions is so that you can become more aware of Me, not the other way around. Believe Me, I know you already. I know what's in each of your hearts, and I love you with no strings attached. Lighten up and enjoy Me. That's what religion is best for.

What you seem to forget is how mysterious I Am. You look at the petty little differences in your scriptures and say, "Well, if this is the Truth, then that can't be!" But instead of trying to figure out My Paradoxes and Unfathomable Nature -- which, by the way, you never will -- why not open your hearts to the simple common threads in every religion?

You know what I'm talking about: Love and respect everyone. Be kind. Even when life is scary or confusing, take courage and be of good cheer, for I Am always with you. Learn how to be quiet, so you can hear My Still, Small Voice (I don't like to shout). Leave the world a better place by living your life with dignity and gracefulness, for you are My Own Child. Hold back nothing from life, for the parts of you that can die will surely die, and the parts that can't, won't. So don't worry, be happy (I stole that last line from Bobby McFerrin, but he stole it from Meher Baba in the first place.)

Simple stuff. Why do you keep making it so complicated? It's like you're always looking for an excuse to be upset. And I'm very tired of being your main excuse. Do you think I care whether you call me Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Wakantonka, Brahma, Father, Mother, or even The Void or Nirvana? Do you think I care which of My Special Children you feel closest to -- Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed or any of the others? You can call Me and My Special Ones any name you choose, if only you would go about My business of loving one another as I love you. How can you keep neglecting something so simple?

I'm not telling you to abandon your religions. Enjoy your religions, honor them, learn from them, just as you should enjoy, honor, and learn from your parents. But do you walk around telling everyone that your parents are better than theirs? Your religion, like your parents, may always have the most special place in your heart; I don't mind that at all. And I don't want you to combine all the Great Traditions into One Big Mess. Each religion is unique for a reason. Each has a unique style so that people can find the best path for themselves.

But My Special Children -- the ones your religions revolve around -- all live in the same place (My Heart) and they get along perfectly, I assure you. The clergy must stop creating a myth of sibling rivalry where there is none.

My Blessed Children of Earth, the world has grown too small for your pervasive religious bigotry and confusion. The whole planet is connected by air travel, satellite dishes, telephones, fax machines, rock concerts, diseases, and mutual needs and concerns. Get with the program! If you really want to help Me celebrate the birthday of My Son Jesus, then commit yourselves to figuring out how to feed your hungry, clothe your naked, protect your abused, and shelter your poor. And just as importantly, make your own everyday life a shining example of kindness and good humor. I've given you all the resources you need, if only you abandon your fear of each other and begin living, loving, and laughing together.

Finally, My Children everywhere, remember whose birth is honored on December 25th, and the fearlessness with which He chose to live and die. As I love Him, so do I love each one of you. I'm not really ticked off, I just wanted to grab your attention because I hate to see you suffer. But I gave you Free Will, so what can I do now other than to try to influence you through reason, persuasion, and a little old-fashioned guilt and manipulation? After all, I Am the original Jewish Mother. I just want you to be happy, and I'll sit in The Dark. I really Am, indeed, I swear, with you always. Always. Trust In Me.

Your One and Only,

GOD
 
Originally posted by nevaehinvesting

Example: Jesus purpose was to die for our sins. It wasn?t to heal the sick, though that was okay to do, it wasn?t to turn water into wine, though that was okay to do, it wasn?t to raise the dead, though that was also okay to do. All that extra stuff was kool, as long as He served his real purpose ? dying for our sins.

In the same way, true Christians have a purpose ? saving this world. It?s fine to prove that bible characters were black, as long as your saving souls. It?s fine to prove that God has hair like wool and bronze feet, as long as your saving souls. As long as we fulfill our purpose, then it?s fine to worry/debate about the other stuff that has nothing to do with eternal security.
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Here we get into the area of interpretation. I see Jesus laying down his life as the climax of his work. We are to follow his example in all areas and be willing to give the ultimate sacrifice for truth. In talking to the Jews, Jesus identified LIE and murder as two of the chief attributes of the devil, his adversary.
 
Originally posted by sophandros
Your a priori is that the world needs to be saved and that souls are at stake. Not everyone believes this, and IF souls were at stake, it's not HUMANS who do it.
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That is the a priori...it is clear that not everyone believes that or ever will...human souls are at stake...and the acceptance of Christ's blood atonement as the mechanism by which the salvation of souls is achieved is one of the central themes of Christianity. He made it so through His love for us.

Originally posted by sophandros
A Muslim and a Christian, for example, both have a relationship with God. Neither is loved more or less, and both are going to be "saved" as their beliefs state.
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While both ARE loved equally, Christianity states that the Muslim won't be saved. Central theme: Jesus Christ is Savior. No peer relationships.

Now, that is nothing to badger or beat-up anyone about. Jesus did not use or advocate the use of such methods. Presentation of the truth is enough.

What has been labelled Christianity does have a dark side. There was even one occasion where there was a group preaching as Jesus walked with His disciples and some of them were just about ready to fight to make the other group be quiet. Jesus said to not interrupt them.

I would like to personally apologize to everyone who has been hounded, pestered, and otherwise treated poorly by people who were not sensitive enough to reflect the character of Jesus Christ. It is a travesty that exists in our history and one that still continues. However, I can make no apologies for the truth of the gospel.

There have been some very good people who have done some very wonderful things in the history of mankind. Ghandi is just one example. You state correctly that our walk with our Creator will be evaluated on an individual basis. God will make that judgement. So, we really don't have to spend a great deal of effort being concerned with the eternal status of those who have gone before us. Our real business here is to spread the gospel to those whom we can affect now.

Romans 5:6-11
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
 
I like this thread!!!

I can't remember when I've been this intellectually stimulated on this forum!! Intriging topic....great responses from all sides!

:tup:
 
Why can't folks live and let live? If you don't like my brand of religion or decison to not have a religion, move on. If what others do, does not appeal to you, don't join. Simple as that.
 
Originally posted by Ms. Jag4Jag
Why can't folks live and let live? If you don't like my brand of religion or decison to not have a religion, move on. If what others do, does not appeal to you, don't join. Simple as that.
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Like Jehovah's Witness coming to your home and not calling first...then wanting to stay?
 
Originally posted by Dr. Sweet NUPE
Like Jehovah's Witness coming to your home and not calling first...then wanting to stay?
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LOL

Do they know you to call? And do they describe themselves as Christians?
 
Originally posted by Ms. Jag4Jag
LOL

Do they know you to call? And do they describe themselves as Christians?
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Heck they think they can just walk up and invite themselves in...shoot they trying to act like a play cousin or something....heck before my thread about them I thought they were Christians...next time I'll just tell them I'm celebrating my birthday.
 
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