Playstation 3 news... Can you say 1000 times more powerful than PS2?


J-State Tiger

Senate Candidate #7
The accelerator
The PlayStation 3 could conquer the home-entertainment and computing markets--if the chip inside it can deliver 1,000-fold processing improvements.
By Dean Takahashi
July 19, 2002

Sony's vision for home entertainment may not look much different from the aspirations of other consumer-electronics companies. Like Sony, these companies hope to build a machine for the living room, capable of computing, communications, and entertainment functions. But Sony hopes to differentiate its machine--in this case, the PlayStation 3--by equipping it with a chip of unprecedented computing power, one that would make it as much as 1,000 times more powerful than the PlayStation 2.


The soul of Sony's new machine is a cell-computing chip. These chips enable a distributed style of computing (known as cell computing) that performs computing tasks in much the same way a cell phone network routes calls from base station to base station. Due for release in 2005, the PlayStation 3 will thus be able to use its broadband Internet connection to reach across the Internet and draw additional computing power from idle processors. And if still more horsepower is needed, the PlayStation 3 can use a home network to enlist support from other available machines to tackle big computing jobs. Pieces of a computing task--for example, creating realistic 3D graphics that simulate entire worlds--will be distributed among available processors to harness their combined power.

Buoyed by so much processing power, consumers will be able to interact with these worlds without worrying about hackers, viruses, or lost connections. Instead of using a mouse or game controller, players might wave their hands in front of a Web cam, showing what they want to do through gestures. They might play games without ever putting a disc into the console machine, downloading games from the Internet instead. They could tap into vast networks of movies and music, or they could record shows on the PlayStation 3 hard drive, which, by 2005, might hold 12,800 hours of music or 2,000 hours of video. And, starting with buying games from Sony, consumers will also be able to use the PlayStation 3 to engage in all sorts of e-commerce, through either a Sony ISP or a potential ally like AOL Time Warner.

Sony's plan to build a box that could be the nexus of home entertainment was revealed in a speech by Shinichi Okamoto, senior vice president of research and development at Sony's game division, at the Game Developers Conference in March. Mr. Okamoto said that Sony's next box will make good on the unfulfilled promise of the PlayStation 2--that the PlayStation 3 will be a broadband-enabled computing machine. As such, it will compete not only with game consoles from Nintendo and Microsoft, but also with PCs from the likes of Dell Computer and Hewlett-Packard, and with TV set-top boxes from Motorola and Philips.

It's a grand vision, and it won't be easy to pull off. "The notion of a game box becoming a universal 'everything box' is architecturally very difficult," says Mike Ramsay, CEO of the digital video recorder pioneer TiVo. "The demands for processing that gamers have are too high. They can't be interrupted by an email message or have a game slow down while they're recording a TV show."

Faced with such a challenge, Sony is not going it alone. The consumer-electronics giant has formed an unlikely alliance to design the needed cell-computing chip and to perfect its manufacturing process. The company's game division, Sony Computer Entertainment, headed by PlayStation business creator Ken Kutaragi, is partnering with IBM and Toshiba to develop the PlayStation 3's cell-computing chip.

Technical concerns aside, Sony faces other obstacles. The company's plan contains no mention of how it will handle Microsoft's software applications, which are widely used for home computing. Also, neither broadband subscriptions nor the cell-computing chips are likely to become ubiquitous in just a few years--and ubiquity of these two things is critical to making this vision a reality. Still, the network effect applies here: more processors acting together equals more computing power. Sony is sending out the message: "Match what we're doing by 2005, or we're going to race ahead of you," says Richard Doherty, an analyst at the Envisioneering Group, a market research firm. "The PlayStation 3 is clearly going to be a replacement for your PC."

HOME INVASION

The battle lines are already forming, and it may well become a war of competing chips. For instance, by partnering with IBM and Toshiba, Sony suddenly finds itself competing with Intel. Craig Barrett, CEO of Intel, notes that his company has so much capital (more than $11 billion in cash) that, even with a $5.5 billion capital-spending budget, it doesn't need partners to make chips for its ally, Microsoft. "Joint ventures never work," he grouses, referring to the alliances of rival chip makers. "It's like tying three legs together to try to win a race."

Microsoft, Sony's main competition in this field, has placed two bets. It continues to work with Intel on its eHome project, which will enable a PC to communicate wirelessly with the TV or stereo. It has also allied with chip makers Intel, Nvidia, and Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company in the manufacture of chips for the Xbox, Microsoft's game console that sports a hard drive and a broadband Internet connection. Either the PC or the Xbox, a new version of which will be ready when Sony launches the PlayStation 3, will provide the hardware for Microsoft's MSN subscribers to receive all sorts of broadband services over the Web and to engage in e-commerce.

Chip startups are forming to arm the existing camps or to create their own skirmish lines. Other consumer-electronics companies, from TiVo to Scientific-Atlanta, will tap makers of custom chips like Broadcom and TerraLogic, or makers of media-processor chips like Equator Technologies, LSI Logic, and TriMedia Technologies, to make sure that their machines hold their own.

Sony's vision for the future is plausible and frightening to its rivals. Mr. Okamoto says the "third-generation platform," a temporary moniker for the PlayStation 3, will have 1,000 times the processing power of the PlayStation 2. That may be bluster; Sony's PlayStation 2 didn't quite have the horsepower that Sony originally claimed it would. But in 2000, Sony managed to deliver a PlayStation 2 that was several hundred times faster in some respects than the original 1993 PlayStation.

The performance the PlayStation 3 promises to deliver is far beyond the progress almost guaranteed by the chip- manufacturing advances codified by Moore's law. "If Sony gets 12 to 36 months ahead of other companies on Moore's law, it could be very threatening" to chip makers, Mr. Doherty says.

Yet as much as anyone tries to race ahead of Moore's law, few succeed in pulling that far ahead of other major chip makers, says Peter Glaskowsky, an analyst at In-Stat/MDR, a market research firm. Faced by a rival's advance, the best chip companies, like AMD and Intel, hold nothing back to improve their products. Sony, primarily a consumer-electronics company, will do well not to enter such a contest.

SILICON VOLLEY

Still, Sony is doing a couple of things to hit this 1,000-fold processing-power improvement and pack the advances of 20 years of Moore's law into just 5. The architecture of the cell-computing chip, which promises huge performance improvements, is one piece. To this end, the company is trying to develop a second partnership with IBM and Toshiba, this one to devise a custom manufacturing process for its PlayStation 3 chips. In East Fishkill, New York, hundreds of IBM, Sony, and Toshiba engineers are working to tailor IBM's silicon-on-insulator process to the new chip design. This process for making chips allows transistors, the basic building blocks of circuitry, to be packed extremely densely. Mr. Glaskowsky says this type of process is going to be required in the next few years because it's the only way to pack 500 million or more transistors onto the chip. (The PlayStation 2's Emotion Engine microprocessor has 13 million transistors.)

"This means that Sony will be able to design its chips to take advantage of a manufacturing process that doesn't yet exist," says Bijan Davari, vice president for technology and emerging products at IBM. "By combining improvements in chip architecture, software, circuit design, and manufacturing, this is how we move toward a thousand times current performance."

Sony's opening gambit in the next-generation chess game will have repercussions, effectively accelerating the plans of rivals to launch competing game consoles. This has happened before. In 1999, when Sony announced the huge performance leap of the PlayStation 2, Microsoft reacted by conceiving the Xbox. Rick Thompson, a vice president who would later manage Microsoft's Xbox project, told Bill Gates at a strategic retreat that an alliance between Sony, AOL Time Warner, and AT&T could create a game console that would be able to surf the Web and be given away for free at the local supermarket. Part of that alliance has been formed. Sony and AOL Time Warner have partnered to provide Internet connectivity and instant-messaging capability for the PlayStation 2--an alliance that might extend to the PlayStation 3.

When it developed the PlayStation 2, Sony allied itself with Toshiba to design and manufacture its chips. But it also spent $1.2 billion to build its own chip factory in Japan to manufacture the PlayStation 2's microprocessor and graphics chip. The strategy backfired when hiccups at the plant forced Sony to cut back on the number of machines it had planned for its launch. Microsoft, seeking to catch up quickly with the Xbox, used off-the-shelf PC microprocessors from Intel and a slightly customized graphics chip from Nvidia, which uses TSMC to make its chips. By turning to these third-party chip suppliers instead of building its own chip, Microsoft was able to leapfrog the performance of the Sony machine.

As it began creating the PlayStation 3 platform, Sony toyed with different strategies. It put 16 PlayStation 2 microprocessors in one machine--all working in parallel--but found that the performance of this so-called GS Cube wasn't good enough to provide the processing power the company wanted, Mr. Okamoto says. So Sony formed the alliance with IBM and Toshiba to focus on cell computing.

This time, Sony's decision to use the custom silicon-on-insulator process from IBM could pressure Microsoft into spending a lot more money on the next Xbox. Along with the amount it will spend in its alliance with IBM and Toshiba, Sony is planning to spend billions more on designing and building the PlayStation 3 console, not to mention the advertising, marketing, and expensive broadband connections. Sony had $5.1 billion in cash at the end of fiscal 2002 (ended March), enough to finance its ambitious plans. Its game division accounted for 62 percent of the $1 billion in operating income that Sony reported, thanks to strong sales of the PlayStation 2.

Sony hopes its cell-computing chips will be useful in other kinds of devices, from camcorders to TV sets. That could result in such high production volumes that overall chip costs could fall much more quickly than if the new chips were used only in the PlayStation 3.

Meanwhile, the Xbox will probably not be lucky enough to get a chip designed especially for it, nor is there an array of Microsoft consumer devices awaiting such a chip. Intel can't yet match IBM's silicon-on-insulator manufacturing process, and it is not likely to tailor its manufacturing processes for chips to be used in a future version of the Xbox. Indeed, Intel's strategy is more generic; it doesn't customize manufacturing processes to the design of specific microprocessors. And it typically doesn't shoot for 1,000-fold performance increases with each new generation. By contrast, Nvidia and other Xbox chip suppliers could further customize their graphics chip to TSMC's manufacturing process, but only if they got funding from Microsoft for such a project. So far, Microsoft is expected to lose hundreds of millions of dollars on the first iteration of the Xbox. Investing more money in chip production and design would only exacerbate those losses. But the company might have to take this hit just to stay in the battle with Sony.

DELAYSTATION

There are obstacles to Sony's plan to own the living room. The problem is that a game machine has to marshall all the resources of its computing and storage functions to deliver the ultimate gaming experience to hard-core gamers. That doesn't leave room for simultaneous processing tasks like video recording and email, which would be required of an all-in-one box.

"We believe the device that can be built to handle all sorts of simultaneous processing tasks, with software controlling what is happening in the background, is the PC," says Michael Toutonghi, vice president in charge of Microsoft's eHome division. "The PC already does that well, and we're going to improve it in the years to come." Microsoft will also add improvements like simplified wireless networking that can enable the PC to control lots of living room devices.

Multiple processors and storage could alleviate the performance problem that would otherwise be created by, say, recording a TV show or receiving email. But that would add extra cost to the machine. Custom-chip makers, like Broadcom, say they will always be able to beat general-purpose chips, like the cell-computing chips envisioned by Sony or general-purpose PC microprocessors, by customizing their chips to specific tasks, like decoding video or sound. "Right now, the cheapest way to do something is to have this mix of custom chips and low-cost processors, not having all of the functions performed by some kind of Pentium," says Mr. Ramsay of TiVo.

In the end, Sony may be reaching too far as it tries to go beyond the game console. "I think the flaw in Sony's thinking is they are trying to anticipate computing performance too far ahead," says Dave Orton, president and CEO of the graphics-chip maker ATI Technologies. "The rivals will simply use what is available as they need it, and even with this reliance on general-purpose processors, they may move ahead of Sony's custom-processing aims."

Adding multiple functions to a game box would mean weighing it down with expensive features on an already expensive graphics-laden box. It's also a recipe for complexity, which has been a hindrance for the PC as it tries to move into the living room.

Sony might argue that there will be plenty of leftover processing power and storage in a machine that will make its debut in 2005. But to beat Sony in this scenario, a competitor will have to dedicate its chip, hard drive, and Internet connection to gaming. That would make Sony vulnerable to losing its edge in gaming, and that isn't a risk that Sony is likely to take. So, for all of its talk of creating a universal box, Sony may have to live with the idea of a legion of living room devices. Indeed, in addition to the PlayStation 3, Sony is working on advanced set-top boxes, as well as better PCs.

"I think it's much more likely that we'll see a proliferation of devices for consumers," says Marc Andreessen, chairman and cofounder of Loudcloud. "Just look at the evolution of the kitchen. If everything converged into one appliance, we'd have a machine that did everything in the kitchen, instead of separate dishwashers and stoves and refrigerators."

Write to Dean Takahashi.
 
I seriously doubt that anything already planned could be that powerful or anything already in the design stage because nothing exists that is that powerful. Now, if they're basing this prediction on the natural progession of the video chip market, I might believe. BUt I can't belive it about any chip that already exists. The chip that is in the X-Box is almost the most powerful out there. IF there was something this powerful out there, I think we would have already seen something equivalent in the PC market. I think the X-Box 2 will be very powerful as well. MIcrosoft will take whatever chip is most power from AMD or INtel at the time or design thier own that is comparable and add to it the most powerful graphics chip avaliable at the time in X-Box 2. But even then, to say 1,000 times more powerful is a bold statment. FOr instance 2.2ghz computer is not really 1,000 more powerful than a 500Mhz processor. It is impossible to even improve performance by 1,000% with anything already out there.
 

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1. Company's often throw big numbers out there that mean little at all.


2. They can not say that X-Box 2 will not be able to compete in the living room because Microsoft already has plans to do this with the current one.

3. There is no way PS3 could have a chip this powerful and niethr MIcrosoft or NIntendo have one equally as powerful. It's not like the person making the chip in the Sony is the only person in the world that knows how to make chips. Microsoft, AMD, Intel, VIA, and all these other chip makers can't possibly be left behind my 1 company. Cell-Computing is not a Sony patent, so they are probably not the only ones with plans to use it

4. IT's 2002, so probably by 2005, there could be a chip more powerful than anything in the works or even in imagination right now. But that is not because of Sony, that is just the nature of computer chip business
 
Dang man, im glad i aint get the XBOX or Playstation 2 yet....
datz kool i might get the PS3 if an when it come out
 
Originally posted by SupaTiger
Dang man, im glad i aint get the XBOX or Playstation 2 yet....
datz kool i might get the PS3 if an when it come out

I really don't see a reason not to get one. The PS3 is not coming out for 3 years, if it even is ready at the time they say it is. If you buy one now, you want even miss the money 3 years from now.
 
Originally posted by Sonic98
I seriously doubt that anything already planned could be that powerful or anything already in the design stage because nothing exists that is that powerful. Now, if they're basing this prediction on the natural progession of the video chip market, I might believe. BUt I can't belive it about any chip that already exists. The chip that is in the X-Box is almost the most powerful out there. IF there was something this powerful out there, I think we would have already seen something equivalent in the PC market.
They explained in the article how they figured on getting a chip that was 1000X better, based on their dealings with IBM and toshiba. I wouldnt put it past them, simply because the PS2 aint got that big of a prosessor to begin with.
 
WELL NO MATTER WHO MAKES WHAT....SOMEONE IS GONNA MAKE IT BETTER..BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, ITS GONNA COST TO MUCH FOR ME... :upset:
 
Originally posted by J-State Tiger
They explained in the article how they figured on getting a chip that was 1000X better, based on their dealings with IBM and toshiba. I wouldnt put it past them, simply because the PS2 aint got that big of a prosessor to begin with.

I don't think the chip will be 1,000 times more powerful. I think the 1,000 comes from the overall better performance of the system:faster, better graphics, high-speed internet ready, probably a hard drive like X-Box. I think the 1,000 comes from the total package. Either way, I still say it is misleading. But even if it does happen, someone else will come out with something more powerful six months later.
 
That, I agree with.

After the XBOX, Duracell might bust out with an even better system. :rolleyes: :lol:

That's the name of the game and it all matters on how much marketing comes with each system.

Everyone has been doubting the XBOX because of sales, but check this:

By the end of this year, XBOX is supposed to launch over 100 new titles, with plenty of #1 rated hits.

Then, by the Spring it's supposed to launch another 100.

Check www.xbox.com and preview the XBOX E3 Showcase.

These games are already in the making.

They claim to have close to 300 new games by next summer!!!!!

XBOX owners, like myself, will be very happy come Summer '03.
 
About the PS3.....

I'll have to see it to believe it.

If they do produce a chip packing that much power, and Sony gets their hands on it first, then I'll applaud them.

But, do expect Microsoft to be right behind Sony.

Remember, the XBOX packs a whole lot more power than the PS2.

Just imagine how much power it'll pack when the PS3 comes out.
 
Originally posted by Sonic98
I seriously doubt that anything already planned could be that powerful or anything already in the design stage because nothing exists that is that powerful.

Well Ray (Sonic)...you may be a little off on that.

The Sony Vaio by far is the best processor that money can buy with a Pentium 4 processor...I was inches cloes to copping a lab top last week for the low-low if I didn't get hated on...:rolleyes:

Anyway, they have a processor on dektop that costs a whopping 2,000 g's +....I saw a demonstration of this systems capablity and all I could do was drool.... :p

Companies think ahead....while I was going to buy my PS2 fresh off the shelf when it came out...this system (PS3) was probably at it's half way mark in development. Knowing what I saw with the Vaio....I'm pretty much a believer. PS3 can and will live up to it's expectations...

The question now is: How much will it cost??

Impatience and probaby make me go buy the "next best thing" but only if it's below $400.00....anything above that I'd pretty much not buy and would relegate that price into "desktop pc" material. Sony has to also remember that it's the "kids" that want this product and they're the ones that pressure their parents into spending their hard earned dollars....if they price it too high based on this type of this capability...they'll fail....miserably.

Gen-X gamers like you I and V-Dict might cop it...but they'll fail miserably during the holiday season because parents won't be willing to spend that type of money.
The smart thing for Sony to do is to price this sytem a "lil above resonable" and clean up on the market....if they employ this tactic ,Microsoft and Nintendo will be bown out the box....flat out,bar none.
 
Sony is just on top of this thing right now. i dont see Xbox taking over any time soon, because Microsoft simply doesnt have the home electronics market sewed up like Sony does.

Also I expect Nintendo to come back harder when they replace the LameCube. Nintendo messed up bigtime on the Nintendo 64 when they let Playstation in the game with what was an inferior product.
 
Originally posted by Irv Gotti


Well Ray (Sonic)...you may be a little off on that.

The Sony Vaio by far is the best processor that money can buy with a Pentium 4 processor...I was inches cloes to copping a lab top last week for the low-low if I didn't get hated on...:rolleyes:

Anyway, they have a processor on dektop that costs a whopping 2,000 g's +....I saw a demonstration of this systems capablity and all I could do was drool.... :p

Companies think ahead....while I was going to buy my PS2 fresh off the shelf when it came out...this system (PS3) was probably at it's half way mark in development. Knowing what I saw with the Vaio....I'm pretty much a believer. PS3 can and will live up to it's expectations...

The question now is: How much will it cost??

Impatience and probaby make me go buy the "next best thing" but only if it's below $400.00....anything above that I'd pretty much not buy and would relegate that price into "desktop pc" material. Sony has to also remember that it's the "kids" that want this product and they're the ones that pressure their parents into spending their hard earned dollars....if they price it too high based on this type of this capability...they'll fail....miserably.

Gen-X gamers like you I and V-Dict might cop it...but they'll fail miserably during the holiday season because parents won't be willing to spend that type of money.
The smart thing for Sony to do is to price this sytem a "lil above resonable" and clean up on the market....if they employ this tactic ,Microsoft and Nintendo will be bown out the box....flat out,bar none.

I have 2 Sony VAIOs at home. Sony doesn't make the most powerful computer out there. They're better than Gateway or Compaq, but I would not say they are the post powerful. There are two company's Alienware and Falcon Northwest. They have the fastest P4, the fastest video card, and the best sound you can get. Plus, they have techs that can tweak the P4 and video to get more out of it that most other companies. But that is not the point. The point is that even the fastest 2.5Ghz P4 out there is not 1,000 times more powerful than a 500Mhz P2. It can't make MP3s or Movies 1,000 times faster. Windows doesn't run 1,000 times faster. Games aren't 1,000 times faster or 1,000 times better looking. ON an average the performance of computer chips probably improves 60% each year or 120% of you consider both computer chips and graphics both improving 60% each. But you mean to tell me in 3 years, they're going to improve 1,000%? They are not going to jump from 2Ghz or 100Ghz in 3 years, let along 1,000 Ghz. People who know something about computers know there is something called Moore's Law. But that really isn't my point either. My point was actually just proved by you. Right now the X-Box is the post powerfrul Console. But the Sony Vaio is much more powerful. X-Box has a 500Mhz Pentium 3. While there are 2.5 and soon to be 3Ghz Sony VAIOs, Dell, and Gateways out there. My point is that no matter how powerful a console gets, there will be a PC more powerful in a matter of months. PLus, don't forget Intel not Sony design the Pentium 4. Sony is just using the P4 in the VAIO. Without Intel, the VAIO would be use less. That is my point. AMD and Intel make the most powerful computer chips out there right now. Nvidia and ATI make the most powerful video chips out there right now. Also Apple has a good processor provided by Toshiba. Without these 5 companies, we would not have the PS2, GameCube, X-Box, Dell, Gateway as we see them today.
 
Originally posted by J-State Tiger
Sony is just on top of this thing right now. i dont see Xbox taking over any time soon, because Microsoft simply doesnt have the home electronics market sewed up like Sony does.

Also I expect Nintendo to come back harder when they replace the LameCube. Nintendo messed up bigtime on the Nintendo 64 when they let Playstation in the game with what was an inferior product.

You're right about that. But then again MIcrosoft can buy into the home entertainment market whenever they want, and we may or may not know about it. They have already bought out a company that makes a product similar to TiVO. And they are releasing a modification to the X-Box that will give it this functionality. Sony should move the PS2 to the living room now, so when the P3 comes out Sony will already be there. The market is moving toward interactive TV. Microsoft is the only one who is trying to do that now. Gamecube 3 Million sold(I don't know how), X-Box 5 million sold, PS2 30 Million Sold. I think X-Box will be up to 10 Million by the MLK holiday. You're right about NIntedo coming back better next time. But that is what will make it hard on the PS3. When the PS2 came out, there was no one to challenge it. The PSX was in so many homes, and the N64 and Dreamcast just were not making thier mark. This time around Sony will have to compete 2 companies already being in the market. MIcrosoft has more world-wide muscle and money than Sega. They want get pushed out of the market like they did. Also Nintendo is right in Sony's backyard, ASIA. They'll be able to keep a close watch on what Sony is doing. But by 2005 I will be able to spend money more freely than I can now. I will probably get both a PS3 and an X-Box 2. I will not want to play Super Mario Bro 10, or Zelda 15, or Metroid 12, or Luigi's Mansion 5, so I will not likely get the Nintedo product.
 

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