SODOM and GOMORRA

[JayRob]

The worst thing God could ever do to Man is to leave Man free to do Man’s will; that is to leave man without any restraints. Romans 1 clearly states how we got to where we are today; we have continued in our sins knowing the truth of God, thus “God has set us free”. The restraint of God, which He works through man, is man’s means of judging and/or restraining another. However, when man freely sin against God’s law in acts of racism, fornication, adulterer, and many other forms of wickedness, man has given away his ability to judge such sin as homosexuality. In simple language, "how can a fornicator or adulterer judge a homosexual? Even if you find yourself not ever having been a fornicator or an adulterer, if you have accepted or condone such behaviors you too are party to such a sin.


Awesome!!!!!!

The above has several flaws if I may say so. I'll explain.

If there was no biblical satan, there would be no sin. If satan was never allowed to come into the garden, there would be no sin. If satan had been banished from the start, there would be no sin.
In addition and perhaps more important, if Adam had been given the FULL measure of the holy spirit JUST AS JESUS was, THERE WOULD'VE BEEN NO SIN.
Let's quit beating around the bush and tell the WHOLE story.

It amazes me as to why people don't ask the question, "why was Jesus, the 2nd Adam given a huge advantage of having the FULL MEASURE of the holy spirit and the first Adam not given any part of the holy spirit, to fight this evil being?"
That's not justice, that's blaming the victim (Adam) who was doomed to fail in the first place.

If Adam was given the full measure of the holy spirit in the first place, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO SIN and why? Because he would've had the strength, knowledge and wisdom to withstand the evil in his presence.
Adam was doomed to fail the moment satan was allowed to enter and satan knew this.

If one is going to be honest, blame the party responsible for allowing tempation and evil into the garden in the first place, WHICH IS THE BIBLICAL GOD.

One can ask, what loving parent would intentionally allow evil to grace the presence of their newborn child to tempt them? None that I know of.

What "loving" parent would do even worse by blaming the newborn for not having the strength and wisdom to withstand a being who was much ancient and wiser than the newborn himself? None that I know of, yet this is exactly what the biblical god was guilty of. Why won't folks admit this?

Adam was little more than a week old, yet he was totally abandoned in the garden for a period of time and evil was allowed into his presence, and by whom? HIS OWN PARENT. Then the parent blamed him for losing the battle and cursed him for doing so. Doesn't sound like a "loving" god to me, not at all.

 

[Dr H..]

I agree “you have read the entire story”

This is the difference between “us” you read and I study. You can only see the story about Lot, but there is much more, this is only "jot" what I see.

19:8 - When a man took in a stranger, he was bound to protect him, even at the expense of the host's life." – that’s why lot offered his daughters.

Verse – 12: Lot, go and get your family: God give everyone an opportunity to be saved, which is an individual decision. Can we agree on this? What did the family bring, interesting statement by the men.

Verse – 13: God’s Judgment has been pronounced and He has provided a reason for the pending judgment [to ruin or decay]. Can we agree on this

Verse – 14: Lot followed the orders of the “Men” to speak to his son in laws; reflects obedience on behalf of Lot. The son in laws, {mocked – laughed at Lot, thinking this was a joke}

Verse – 15: “The morning arose / next day” {God, still gave them time} notice the angles, in verse 11, 12, they were called men. In verses 19; 5; 10, they were called men. In Chapter 18:2; {three men} one was referred to as the LORD {Jehovah = "the existing One"

The angles “hastened Lot” although Lot knew, God was in the process of destroying he city, Lot & family was still “not prepared” lack of leadership, from the husband. {Verse 16}

“Which are here” those that are ready, no time for slackers, God does not Waite on Slackers!

Lot, Ms. Lot and the two daughters, decided to follow instructions = obedience. The son in laws was not part of the group, lack of obedience; disbelief and they were more concerned about the going on is Sodom; they were blinded by the life they lived in Sodom.

Question: Why was Lot’s sons not mention after verse 12 and why was Lot’s wife not mentioned in verse 12, but she was part of the group, leaving the city.

Verse – 16: There are times despite our {Lot’s} slothfulness, God continues to show mercy = His longsuffering.

Verse – 17: Instructions to Lot and his family. Interesting, decision between life vs death, individual choice.

Verse – 18 -19: Lot lack of faith, in God's promises is obvious. The LORD promised, through His angel, that He would not overthrow the city of Zoar and leave it for Lot to seek refuge. The problem, Lot, having no trust in the God promise, attempts to save himself and turns away from that very thing he negotiated for.

Peter, said that Lot was righteous, and he was. But what we are witnessing is Lot is at war with his own faith.

There is something about the mountain, that Lot don’t like. There is “something” evil about the mountain, it scared Lot to the point that he thought he would die. What, was the “evil” in the mountain.

Verse – 20 -21: The “Little City” and “my” soul shall live, my, not his family, Interesting statement. Zoar

Verse – 22 - 30: Lot in Zoar, but ended up in the “mountain in a cave” {reminds me of Johan and the whale”

Verses 30 – 38 – Lot was afraid of “some” evil in the mountain {verse-19}; Lot and his two daughters dwelt in a cave, in the mountain. It does not say how long. But, long enough to presume: there no men to “in the manner of all the earth” and the rest is history..

One of the things Lot and his family, took with the was wine.

"Come let us make our father drink wine" - meaning, that his two daughters made there father do something, perhaps against his will, somethng that he was not accustom to doing, it means to cause.

So it is apparent by the grammatical construction of the sentence - that Lot's two daughters "forced" Lot against his will. Perhaps, that was the evil in the maountain that Lot was afraid of.

What it all boils down to this is not lust, but of the daughters willingness to peserve their fathers seed. This clearly teach that the Sodomites had influenced not only Lot, but his family as-well. Ms. Lot's had to look back -

 

[JayRob]

This is the difference between “us” you read and I study. You can only see the story about Lot, but there is much more, this is only "jot" what I see.

19:8 - When a man took in a stranger, he was bound to protect him, even at the expense of the host's life." – that’s why lot offered his daughters.

Verse – 12: Lot, go and get your family: God give everyone an opportunity to be saved, which is an individual decision. Can we agree on this? What did the family bring, interesting statement by the men.

Verse – 13: God’s Judgment has been pronounced and He has provided a reason for the pending judgment [to ruin or decay]. Can we agree on this

Verse – 14: Lot followed the orders of the “Men” to speak to his son in laws; reflects obedience on behalf of Lot. The son in laws, {mocked – laughed at Lot, thinking this was a joke}

Verse – 15: “The morning arose / next day” {God, still gave them time} notice the angles, in verse 11, 12, they were called men. In verses 19; 5; 10, they were called men. In Chapter 18:2; {three men} one was referred to as the LORD {Jehovah = "the existing One"

The angles “hastened Lot” although Lot knew, God was in the process of destroying he city, Lot & family was still “not prepared” lack of leadership, from the husband. {Verse 16}

“Which are here” those that are ready, no time for slackers, God does not Waite on Slackers!

Lot, Ms. Lot and the two daughters, decided to follow instructions = obedience. The son in laws was not part of the group, lack of obedience; disbelief and they were more concerned about the going on is Sodom; they were blinded by the life they lived in Sodom.

Question: Why was Lot’s sons not mention after verse 12 and why was Lot’s wife not mentioned in verse 12, but she was part of the group, leaving the city.

Verse – 16: There are times despite our {Lot’s} slothfulness, God continues to show mercy = His longsuffering.

Verse – 17: Instructions to Lot and his family. Interesting, decision between life vs death, individual choice.

Verse – 18 -19: Lot lack of faith, in God's promises is obvious. The LORD promised, through His angel, that He would not overthrow the city of Zoar and leave it for Lot to seek refuge. The problem, Lot, having no trust in the God promise, attempts to save himself and turns away from that very thing he negotiated for.

Peter, said that Lot was righteous, and he was. But what we are witnessing is Lot is at war with his own faith.

There is something about the mountain, that Lot don’t like. There is “something” evil about the mountain, it scared Lot to the point that he thought he would die. What, was the “evil” in the mountain.

Verse – 20 -21: The “Little City” and “my” soul shall live, my, not his family, Interesting statement. Zoar

Verse – 22 - 30: Lot in Zoar, but ended up in the “mountain in a cave” {reminds me of Johan and the whale”

Verses 30 – 38 – Lot was afraid of “some” evil in the mountain {verse-19}; Lot and his two daughters dwelt in a cave, in the mountain. It does not say how long. But, long enough to presume: there no men to “in the manner of all the earth” and the rest is history..

One of the things Lot and his family, took with the was wine.

"Come let us make our father drink wine" - meaning, that his two daughters made there father do something, perhaps against his will, somethng that he was not accustom to doing, it means to cause.

So it is apparent by the grammatical construction of the sentence - that Lot's two daughters "forced" Lot against his will. Perhaps, that was the evil in the maountain that Lot was afraid of.

What it all boils down to this is not lust, but of the daughters willingness to peserve their fathers seed. This clearly teach that the Sodomites had influenced not only Lot, but his family as-well. Ms. Lot's had to look back -

The above points are nothing more than excuses to try and excuse Lot's clear sins and the sins of his daughters.
Peter called the man "righteous". What man can get so drunk that he gives away his seed unknowingly?
You're reading excuses into the verses to try and absolve the grievous, incestuous sins of Lot.

The man had sex with both of his daughters....period. No ifs, ands or buts.

As far as Lot having never drunk wine, that's highly unlikely. Why did they bring wine with them in the first place if he'd never drunk wine before? Were there date rape drugs or pills in Lot's day? Not likely.

It's quite apparent that the daughters KNEW Lot had a drinking problem and they took advantage of it. The question is, who ALLOWED them to take advantage of it? Lot did.

As far as them not knowing if there were other people alive on earth, that dog won't fly. Didn't Abraham pray for Lot to be rescued? How could Abraham pray for Lot if he was dead. Lot knew there were others alive somewhere on earth and not far away.
Earlier in the bible, Abraham gave Lot a choice of which territory he wanted. Abraham then took the territory Lot didn't choose.
Lot had to know that he could've gone to reside with Abraham, so the theory that Lot and the daughters had sex because they thought they were the only ones alive ON EARTH is ludricous and laughable.

Please cease with the excuses and be honest enough to admit that the man named Lot was not righteous. This man named Lot was nowhere near being righteous and here are other reasons why.

Regardless of a stupid custom, what LOVING father would give his daughters up for rape and possible murder to protect total strangers simply because it was a stupid custom? Would you do this today, even if it was a custom? I'm almost sure you wouldn't.

Another thing to show that Lot wasn't righteous is the fact that he chose the BEST lands when Abraham gave him a choice of which territory to take. The admirable thing to do would've been to let Abraham choose but nooooo, Lot didn't do that. He chose the most fertile and desirable lands.

Now enough with the excuses. Peter was dead wrong. Based on biblical records, Lot was nowhere near being righteous.
He was incestuous, a drunkard, selfish, cowardly and not a good example for his daughters.
As a matter of fact, if he hadn't been dragged out of the town by the "men", he would've been killed as well. Had it not been for Abraham's prayers, Lot would've been among the dead.
This tells me that Lot DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE SODOM. Why else would there have been a need for the men to drag him out of the town? He didn't want to leave.

So again, please cease with the excuses. Peter was dead wrong.

 

[dacontinent]

... I'll explain.

If there was no biblical satan, there would be no sin. If satan was never allowed to come into the garden, there would be no sin. If satan had been banished from the start, there would be no sin.
In addition and perhaps more important, if Adam had been given the FULL measure of the holy spirit JUST AS JESUS was, THERE WOULD'VE BEEN NO SIN.
Let's quit beating around the bush and tell the WHOLE story.
...

From this explanation it is clear that you don't know the story.

 

[JayRob]

From this explanation it is clear that you don't know the story.

I know a lot more than you're willing to admit or give one credit for. Since you're hinting that you know the story, please explain why evil was intentionally allowed to invade an already peaceful environment.

-Please explain how it's a "just" thing to allow a more powerful being to seduce and deceive less wiser beings.
-Please explain how it's a "just" thing to then turn around and blame the actual victims who didn't have the means to defend themselves against the wiser and more powerful being.
-Please explain why Adam wasn't given the "full measure" of the holy spirit to combat satan in the garden just as Jesus was allegedly given during his bout with the same satan.

 

[Dr H..]

JRob

It is apparent you cannot read!

Lot, never said "there were no men" it was his daughters

Abraham prayed, before the men departed for Sodom, his prayer is why he was saved.


People drink wine like people drink water today, but there was two types of wine fermented and non-fermented.

So you are admitting that Lot's daughter was the cause of getting Lot drunk.

 

[dacontinent]

I know a lot more than you're willing to admit or give one credit for. Since you're hinting that you know the story, please explain why evil was intentionally allowed to invade an already peaceful environment.

-Please explain how it's a "just" thing to allow a more powerful being to seduce and deceive less wiser beings.
-Please explain how it's a "just" thing to then turn around and blame the actual victims who didn't have the means to defend themselves against the wiser and more powerful being.
-Please explain why Adam wasn't given the "full measure" of the holy spirit to combat satan in the garden just as Jesus was allegedly given during his bout with the same satan.

It's not even about all that. It is the simple matter that you have supposed that Jesus could not sin because he had received the Holy Spirit and that Adam sinned because he was somehow lesser endowed.

If Jesus could not sin, that would give the rest of us an excuse to sin. Totally incorrect.

 

[JayRob]

JRob

It is apparent you cannot read!

It's apparent that you're not good at defending your argument.

Lot, never said "there were no men" it was his daughters

Who cares who made the statement? The man still had sex with both of his daughters. LOL!! You keep missing out on this point and you never explained how the man, Lot, allowed himself to get so drunk to the point that he didn't know he was mating with his daughters.....TWICE.

Abraham prayed, before the men departed for Sodom, his prayer is why he was saved.

So did the daughters not realize that there were still others alive or did Lot and his daughters want to engage themselves in incestuous lust just for the heck of it?
Bottom line is this story makes no sense and is nothing more than a fable due to lack of any credible evidence whatsoever.

People drink wine like people drink water today, but there was two types of wine fermented and non-fermented.

Whether the wine is fermented or not, WHO made Lot drink so much of it to the point where he didn't know he was "giving his seed" to his own flesh and blood daughters?
Plus this story tries and place the blame on his daughters and makes women look nothing more than being gullible, stupid and evil schemers.
It's ashamed that you're trying to place blame on the daughters to try and save face for Lot. He has just as much blame if not more.

So you are admitting that Lot's daughter was the cause of getting Lot drunk.

I don't know how you conjured up this thought from any of my statements.

 

[JayRob]

It's not even about all that. It is the simple matter that you have supposed that Jesus could not sin because he had received the Holy Spirit and that Adam sinned because he was somehow lesser endowed.

If Jesus could not sin, that would give the rest of us an excuse to sin. Totally incorrect.

It's very much about what I posted. Any person could sin if given the opportunity, but when one has to go up against the most powerful being ever created, that person obviously needed more power.
Why else was the Jesus character given the full measure of the holy spirit BEFORE he was tempted?
Adam wasn't given that option. He was just thrown out there to sink or swim on his own with the little knowledge he had. Keep in mind that he was only two weeks old as well and was like a newborn babe.

This newborn babe was then blamed for not having the power to withstand this wise being eventhough he was never granted the power to do so in the first place.

For one to claim that it's not about be given the "full measure" of the holy spirit is highly, and I do mean HIGHLY disingenuous.
It's very much important as to whether or not one has the "full measure".

 

[dacontinent]

...Why else was the Jesus character given the full measure of the holy spirit BEFORE he was tempted?
...

Is it your contention that Jesus was not tempted for the first 30 years of His life?

You continue with these uninformed statements.

So...let me ask you this directly so you can answer it: Is it your contention that Jesus did not have the capacity to sin because of the endowment of the Holy Spirit?

 

[JayRob]

Is it your contention that Jesus was not tempted for the first 30 years of His life?

You continue with these uninformed statements.

So...let me ask you this directly so you can answer it: Is it your contention that Jesus did not have the capacity to sin because of the endowment of the Holy Spirit?

Instead of addressing simple questions I've already asked, why continue to avoid answering them by asking completely different questions?
As a matter of fact, the bible says that "god" can't be tempted, so if Jesus was "god in the flesh", he shouldn't have been able to be tempted. If he was tempted, then he wasn't god.
James 1:13, "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone." It also says in Heb. 4:15, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."
Just another biblical contradiction among hundreds more.

As far as the Jesus character being tempted, I think you know which story in the bible I was referring to.
There's very little information in the bible regarding his tempatations in the bible as a child. You tell me if he was tempted as a child and show verses.

Now I'll ask again, "according to the bible, was the Jesus character endowed with the full measure of the holy spirit?" Yes or no?
Second, according to the bible, "was Adam given the full measure of the holy spirit before satan came in the garden?" Yes or no? Please provide supporting verses.

 

[Dr H..]

Question:

Why do you think that he did not have the “Full Measure of The Holy Spirit” Adam and Eve was created to have the freedom to choose, just as we have the right to choose? But they sinned by willful disobedience, just as we do and Jesus could have, but he chooses not to.

Because an individual have the Holy Spirit, does not mean they are beyond sinning. One of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to “Teach –

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. – John 14:26

He can teach, teach and teach. However, that does not mean a man “mankind” will obey.


What excuses are making reference to:

 

[Dr H..]

This is “somewhat” a confusing statement, but with a little study it is quite simple.

James: 1:13 –

James use the word “God, “Theos” In this scripture, James focus is on the” The Godhead” that’s why the word Theos is used.

But in this scripture,

Hebrew: - 4:15 – / Hebrews 2:18

The Hebrew writer is referring to the high priest (Jesus). Jesus experienced temptation in every area of His life, as we do. He suffered temptation as we do because He was fully human.

God, the Son (Jesus) instead of maintaining His former manner of existence He "emptied (poured out) Himself"/, "made himself nothing" or "laid aside His privileges" (Gr. ekenosen). The Greek word is "kenosis," which refers to the doctrine of Christ limiting Himself when He came in the likeness of men (Rom. 8:3)."Likeness" (Gr. homoiomati) does not mean exactness (Gr. eikon).

Even though Jesus had a fully human nature, that nature was not sinful. Every other human being has a sinful human nature. Jesus had a divine nature as well as a human nature. - Phil 2:7

Most preachers say, He came [eikon] as a man, not so.

 

[dacontinent]

Instead of addressing simple questions I've already asked, why continue to avoid answering them by asking completely different questions?
As a matter of fact, the bible says that "god" can't be tempted, so if Jesus was "god in the flesh", he shouldn't have been able to be tempted. If he was tempted, then he wasn't god.
James 1:13, "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone." It also says in Heb. 4:15, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."
Just another biblical contradiction among hundreds more.

As far as the Jesus character being tempted, I think you know which story in the bible I was referring to.
There's very little information in the bible regarding his tempatations in the bible as a child. You tell me if he was tempted as a child and show verses.

Now I'll ask again, "according to the bible, was the Jesus character endowed with the full measure of the holy spirit?" Yes or no?
Second, according to the bible, "was Adam given the full measure of the holy spirit before satan came in the garden?" Yes or no? Please provide supporting verses.

As usual, you did not answer the question but this time you did select the correct scripture. So, I will answer your questions (again) in the hope that you will answer mine.

Col 2:8-9
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

According to the Bible, the Holy Ghost was in full measure over the earth when Adam was in the Garden.
Gen 1:1
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Covered the water...the appearance of land...the placement for flora and fauna...the establishment of the animal kingdom...and the presentation and habitation of man. With that, Adam was given authority over everything in the earth...and Jesus later restored that which was lost through dominion. So, Adam had full authority of the Holy Spirit in the earth just as Jesus did.

Jesus, acting as a man and not as God (shed of the glory that He had before the world was formed), was tempted (Heb 4:15 as you pointed out) so you and I would not have an excuse.

Now that we have that addressed, please answer my questions.

 

[JayRob]

Question:

Why do you think that he did not have the “Full Measure of The Holy Spirit” Adam and Eve was created to have the freedom to choose, just as we have the right to choose? But they sinned by willful disobedience, just as we do and Jesus could have, but he chooses not to.

Where does it say that Adam had the "full measure" of the holy spirit? Nowhere, but it does say that the Jesus character had it. According to the bible, the holy spirit serves several purposes to help assist one from sinning.
Adam didn't have the extra support that the Jesus figure had. Was that being fair in the scheme of things? Not to me. If it was good for the 2nd Adam to have the "full measure" why wouldn't it have been good for the first Adam to be given that same support?

Because an individual have the Holy Spirit, does not mean they are beyond sinning. One of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to “Teach –

Who knows what he would've done if he had the full measure of the holy spirit according to the same examples given by the Jesus character?
So NOT having the holy spirit does not give one an advantage when it comes to avoiding sin? Is that what you're saying?

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. – John 14:26
He can teach, teach and teach. However, that does not mean a man “mankind” will obey.

Was Adam even given this opportunity to be reminded of everything while he was being tempted without the services of the holy spirit? Doesn't seem like it.

What excuses are making reference to:

In one breath, you're blaming Adam for sinning, but in another post, you're defending Lot for sinning and claiming that his daughters made him sin. Let's at least be consistent.
Who caused Adam to sin? According to the bible, the satan being did. If satan was never allowed in the garden, there would be no sin.
Before satan came into the garden, was there sin? No. After satan left the garden was there sin? Yes.

 

[JayRob]

As usual, you did not answer the question but this time you did select the correct scripture. So, I will answer your questions (again) in the hope that you will answer mine.

Col 2:8-9
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I can't believe you're accusing me of dodging questions. LOL!!
As I said before, the Jesus character did have the full measure but nowhere does it specifically say that Adam or Eve did.

According to the Bible, the Holy Ghost was in full measure over the earth when Adam was in the Garden.
Gen 1:1
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Uhh, that simply means presence of this god moving from place to place in order to renew the face of the earth because it was in chaos. It says nothing about this spirit indwelling Adam and Eve and it says nothing about it existing in full measure.
Another thing is, if what you're claiming is true, then you're indirectly saying that Adam and Eve committed the unpardonable sin.

Covered the water...the appearance of land...the placement for flora and fauna...the establishment of the animal kingdom...and the presentation and habitation of man. With that, Adam was given authority over everything in the earth...and Jesus later restored that which was lost through dominion. So, Adam had full authority of the Holy Spirit in the earth just as Jesus did.

You just proved my earlier point, that the spirit moved about only to recreate, not indwell. Nowhere does it say that Adam was offered the holy spirit.
Adam was only given dominion over the animal kingdom and physical things. You said it right there in bold print but you then add your own interpretation to include spiritual dominion which was not the case.
The verses you quoted say nothing about being given dominion over anything spiritual.

Jesus, acting as a man and not as God (shed of the glory that He had before the world was formed), was tempted (Heb 4:15 as you pointed out) so you and I would not have an excuse.

Please explain how one can shut off his spiritual authority as being god while being a physical human being. If he was fully man, he couldn't have been fully god. If he was fully god, he couldn't have been fully man. It's one or the other.
This is where fictional tales begin to rear it's head in the new testament.

Now that we have that addressed, please answer my questions.

Your address has some serious flaws. Where did it SPECIFICALLY say that Adam was given the holy spirit? Nowhere. You're reading a lot into verses that say nothing about him ever being given the holy spirit.

In the new testament, there are clear and irrefutable verses showing that the Jesus character received the full measure of the holy spirit. Nothing even close to this is mentioned in the old testament as it relates to Adam.
Just because a spirit exists in an environment doesn't mean that it dwells within the person IN that environment.
John 14:17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.It's like the Jesus character said in the new testament when addressing the disciples, "that the holy spirit dwells WITH you but shall be IN you. Dwelling "with" versus dwelling "in" are two different meanings.

As far as the Jesus character being able to sin, he could've sinned (I presume eventhough according to the bible he was god...and it does say, "god cannot sin") and why? One reason is because he had the full measure of the holy spirit as his helper in addition to the claims that he was supposedly the same god who created this satan in the first place. If he created this satan and existed for ALL eternity, one would presume that he had a clear advantage over this satan just as he did over Adam.
Adam was at a clear disadvantage either way nevertheless he was still cursed for being created weaker.

 

[Dr H..]

Yeah, what excuses –

I was accused of making excuses, before I commented about Adam. Now, Adam and Eve, like Lot had the freedom of choice, did they not? The bible clearly state that it was Lots’ daughters that “made” him drink wine. The difference is Lot’s daughter made him drink and the serpent, via Lucifer and Ms. Adam, changed God’s word, by adding and subtracting.

Wrong, before Satan entered the garden, Satan had already sinned in Heaven – Isa. 14:12 – 15; Ez. 28:14

Who said, sin did not exist after Satan left the garden?

Yes, Adam was given the opportunity, the devil tempted Eve, first – and Adam followed – Genesis 3, because he ignored what had had initially instructed, God instructed Adam, not to eat from the tree – this was the first human sin - Genesis 2., not the first sin.

Satan, did not cause Adam to sin, Adam sinned of his own freewill. But, it clearly states in 3:6 – that Eve, gave her husband the fruit, and he did eat. There is nowhere in scripture, where it states that the serpent made Adam or Eve eat the fruit. The serpent only placed doubt in the mind of Adam and Eve as he contradicted what God had told Adam; in fact both knew what God had commanded.

Satan's job is to make things as attractive as possible for humans, especially when it contradicts God's word. Satan is not stupid, he know's what get's our attention -

This is what you are missing: Regardless, if Adam had “Full Measure” of the Holy Spirit or no, he knew exactly what God said, and he passed the information on to Eve – Adam, was not ignorant, how do we know – 2:19 – 20. Which indicates that Adam, had an unlimited vocabulary, this indicates that Adam must have had great intelligence and wisdom to be able to identify and label the various types of animals according to their natures.

Eve said, the serpent deceived me, Adam, said the woman you gave to be with me persuaded me,” said Adam. They are saying if they had been “God’s” things would have been different; therefore, it’s all God’s fault. These are not the responses of broken and regretful hearts, this is a clear indication of a proud and willful individuals caught in the act of rebellion against God.
Eve, my darling, YOU added to it "or touch it" (v. 3) - She overstated the restrictions by misquoting the Divine prohibition

It’s quite interesting, that the serpent [Satan / Lucifer] recognizes the existence of Yĕhovah 'elohiym, and JayRob does not.

This is what you are missing, as much as Adam, knew he sinned. Lucifer, an angel of God, in heaven with God, still sinned. Both were sins of rebellion / disobedience. There were other angles of God that did not sin of follow the leadership of Lucifer as Adam followed the leadership of Eve. That tells me that sin is a choice regardless.

Today, people have the Holy Spirit, which God promised to give, when we meet a certain requirement. However, people continue to sin, although they know what God teach, we like Adam, Eve and Lucifer continue to disobey (God), because we choose to.

So Adam’s sin had / has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit

Before satan came into the garden, was there sin? No. After satan left the garden was there sin? Yes.

There was sin, already explained.....

 

[Dr H..]

Another thing is, if what you're claiming is true, then you're indirectly saying that Adam and Eve committed the unpardonable sin.

Please explain how you extracted that comment from dac's response?

 

[dacontinent]

Please explain how you extracted that comment from dac's response?

Co-sign ... and to which of the unpardonable sins do you refer?

 

[JayRob]

Yeah, what excuses –

I was accused of making excuses, before I commented about Adam. Now, Adam and Eve, like Lot had the freedom of choice, did they not? The bible clearly state that it was Lots’ daughters that “made” him drink wine. The difference is Lot’s daughter made him drink and the serpent, via Lucifer and Ms. Adam, changed God’s word, by adding and subtracting.

Wrong, before Satan entered the garden, Satan had already sinned in Heaven – Isa. 14:12 – 15; Ez. 28:14

Who said, sin did not exist after Satan left the garden?

Yes, Adam was given the opportunity, the devil tempted Eve, first – and Adam followed – Genesis 3, because he ignored what had had initially instructed, God instructed Adam, not to eat from the tree – this was the first human sin - Genesis 2., not the first sin.

Satan, did not cause Adam to sin, Adam sinned of his own freewill. But, it clearly states in 3:6 – that Eve, gave her husband the fruit, and he did eat. There is nowhere in scripture, where it states that the serpent made Adam or Eve eat the fruit. The serpent only placed doubt in the mind of Adam and Eve as he contradicted what God had told Adam; in fact both knew what God had commanded.

Satan's job is to make things as attractive as possible for humans, especially when it contradicts God's word. Satan is not stupid, he know's what get's our attention -

This is what you are missing: Regardless, if Adam had “Full Measure” of the Holy Spirit or no, he knew exactly what God said, and he passed the information on to Eve – Adam, was not ignorant, how do we know – 2:19 – 20. Which indicates that Adam, had an unlimited vocabulary, this indicates that Adam must have had great intelligence and wisdom to be able to identify and label the various types of animals according to their natures.

Eve said, the serpent deceived me, Adam, said the woman you gave to be with me persuaded me,” said Adam. They are saying if they had been “God’s” things would have been different; therefore, it’s all God’s fault. These are not the responses of broken and regretful hearts, this is a clear indication of a proud and willful individuals caught in the act of rebellion against God.
Eve, my darling, YOU added to it "or touch it" (v. 3) - She overstated the restrictions by misquoting the Divine prohibition

It’s quite interesting, that the serpent [Satan / Lucifer] recognizes the existence of Yĕhovah 'elohiym, and JayRob does not.

This is what you are missing, as much as Adam, knew he sinned. Lucifer, an angel of God, in heaven with God, still sinned. Both were sins of rebellion / disobedience. There were other angles of God that did not sin of follow the leadership of Lucifer as Adam followed the leadership of Eve. That tells me that sin is a choice regardless.

Today, people have the Holy Spirit, which God promised to give, when we meet a certain requirement. However, people continue to sin, although they know what God teach, we like Adam, Eve and Lucifer continue to disobey (God), because we choose to.

So Adam’s sin had / has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit

Before satan came into the garden, was there sin? No. After satan left the garden was there sin? Yes.

There was sin, already explained.....

Nothing you posted does away with the fact that Adam was at a huge disadvantage when he went up against this Satan. The full measure of the holy spirit means that you have all power it gives. Where does it say that Adam had that power? Nowhere.
You just glossed over that as if it meant nothing. Being given the full measure of the holy spirit in the bible meant that one had ALL the power needed to avoid sin no matter what the "flesh" offered. Was Adam given this huge advantage? Not at all.

Just because someone is ordered not to sin doesn't mean that it can be accomplished. Adam was created weaker than Satan. He was only two weeks old when he was tempted by this Satan who had been around for perhaps thousands of years. Satan had no problem confusing and defeating Adam.
Someone could order me to lift a MACK truck but does that alone give me the strength to accomplish it? No more than Adam was given the strength merely because he was ordered to not sin.

As a matter of fact, the Jesus character had the following advantages not given to the first Adam: he was said to be fully god, had the full measure of the holy spirit, was the creator of the being tempting, so he automatically KNEW this being's weaknesse AND according to the bible, since he was "god", he could NOT sin.
Again I ask, why wasn't Adam given the SAME advantages before having to take on this Satan? It would be easier to just go ahead and admit that you don't know instead of filibustering.

 

[JayRob]

Please explain how you extracted that comment from dac's response?

Simple. dacontinent claims that Adam had the holy spirit. What happens if one falls away after being given the holy spirit? According to the bible, they've committed the unpardonable sin.
If as dacontinent claims that Adam was given the holy spirit, yet rejected it later on, he's committed the unpardonable sin.

My take is that neither Adam nor Eve committed a biblical unpardonable sin because neither had a holy spirit in the first place.

 

[JayRob]

Co-sign ... and to which of the unpardonable sins do you refer?

Note: I want to compliment you. You're REALLY good at avoiding answering (not addressing) my questions.:tup:

As far as which unpardonable sin, how many are there. If you've had the holy spirit, you sin and fall away without repenting, that seems to qualify one as having committed it.
Is there record of Adam ever repenting?

 

[Dr H..]

JRob

You really need to study the scripture, not just read. And you have not explained how you pulled the information form dac's comment.

Do you think, Adam has the Holy Spirit.

Unpardonable sin how many are there?

Interesting, I am guess that you failed "English 101" Matthew 12:32 -> & Mark 3:22 -> There is only one (1), that being blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - this is referring to "Resistance Against the Holy Spirit"

There could be, but have never located a scripture that stated Adam and Eve repented. Why is this important?

Simple. dacontinent claims that Adam had the holy spirit. What happens if one falls away after being given the holy spirit? According to the bible, they've committed the unpardonable sin.

Give me book, chapter and verse that support, that the committed the unpardonable sin. What you are saying is pure speculation..

 

[JayRob]

JRob

You really need to study the scripture, not just read. And you have not explained how you pulled the information form dac's comment.

Do you think, Adam has the Holy Spirit.

Unpardonable sin how many are there?

Interesting, I am guess that you failed "English 101" Matthew 12:32 -> & Mark 3:22 -> There is only one (1), that being blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - this is referring to "Resistance Against the Holy Spirit"

There could be, but have never located a scripture that stated Adam and Eve repented. Why is this important?

Give me book, chapter and verse that support, that the committed the unpardonable sin. What you are saying is pure speculation..

If both had the holy spirit once, and they fell away completely, how is it that they didn't commit the unpardonable sin? According to the bible, the unpardonable sin is the sin of rejection.
Hebrews 6:4-6. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

You asked for it, there it is.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the above verses but if you want to twist them to mean something different, be my guest.
Fact of the matter is, they if as dacontinent said that Adam had the holy spirit, he rejected it and there's no record of him ever repenting and coming back. That means he committed the unpardonable sin.
I don't believe that though.

 

[Dr H..]

My question is do you believe Adam had the Holy Spirit - he had a measure of the Holy Spirit, not the total indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Not like Jesus.

I understand your confusion, what you are forgetting or misunderstanding is that during the time of Adam and the time of Jesus was different. The time of Adam was theologically called the Dispensation of Innocence, from there until the Dispensation of the Kingdom, in which we are living in.

No, Adam and Eve did not “repent” per se’ – this is what happened according to Genesis 3:21 –

Before God expelled them from the Garden / Paradise. He (God) gave them a token of Redemption Grace, which is His unmerited favor. Both was facing death, because of their “Innocence” they did not “understand death” that was not part of their vocabulary – they could not “death” because that was not part of Gods original plan and purpose. They had not seen or experienced “death” Without the Sheading of “Blood” there is no Remission / Covering of Sin (Heb. 9:22). Did this happen for Adam and Eve, yes –God, made a coats of skin and clothed them, this is called a / the vicarious sacrifice, this covers the guilty one – Genesis 3:21.

This is called God’s plan of Redemption for Adam and all generations, now the plan included Christ and His Blood on the Cross – we have been Redeemed by The Blood of The Lamb..

Please explain how Hebrews 6:4-6, applies to Adam, when the book was written to Jewish and Gentile Christians, in which Adam was neither - In fact, Adam was not a Hebrew.

The Book of Hebrews was written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. Please explain, how this applies to Adam, according to Bible, Historians and others He was long dead when the Book of Hebrews was written.