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View Full Version : How "the Great 8" comes from PrinceHall Masonry/OES



Dawgpound97-01
February 20, 2005, 12:38 PM
I had no idea that Prince Hall masonry is considered the "Father of all" Greeks of:
Alpha Phi Alpha
Kappa Alpha Psi
Omega Psi Phi
Phi Beta Sigma

And that the Order of the Eastern Stars(PHA) is considered the "Mother of all" Greeks of:

Alpha Kappa Alpha
Delta Sigma Theta
Zeta Phi Beta
Sigma Gamma Rho

95% of the founders of the Great 8 are Prince Hall Masons or Eastern stars.
I had NO CLUE,until I got raised in to masonry a year ago.One of the Past Master's of my lodge was telling me about it,and I started to do research on it a little bit (I didnt research on stuff I shouldn't know). I know quite a few people that's A Phi A and Omega Psi Phi that are masons (alot of them in my lodge),and I know a couple AKA's that's OES.........everything started to make sense once I noticed that people ARE members of a Great 8 frat/soror and a Mason/Star,especially when I transfered from a community college in Michigan to TnSU this past fall.Alot of people say that Alpha and Omega are the CLOSEST two frats to masonry,and AKA is the closest to Eastern Star (dont take MY word on it...just something I heard numerous of times). It's amazing....and you start to "look" at things different if you're a mason or eastern star but not a member of one of the Great 8(like myself)....you can see the character within it all.I see things all the time that the great 4 frats do that came from masonry,and it's CRAZY!

Does anybody know of any books or websites that talk about the comparison of Masonry and the Great 8?
And how did you first "notice" the simmularities(sp.) about masonry/OES and the Great 8?

silentrage
February 21, 2005, 03:04 PM
Does anybody know of any books or websites that talk about the comparison of Masonry and the Great 8?
And how did you first "notice" the simmularities(sp.) about masonry/OES and the Great 8?

This book offeres an interesting history about the start of fraternal organizations: Black Greek 101 : the culture, customs, and challenges of Black fraternities and sororities by Walter M. Kimbrough. It was published in 2003. Kimbrough is considered an expert on the history of black fraternal orgainzations. He is currently the president of Philander Smith College in Little Rock, AR.

More info about the book: http://inside.fdu.edu/fdupress/04050501.html

Seeing Spots
February 21, 2005, 07:48 PM
I don't know what you mean about the similiarities are "crazy". I suppose you mean that it is "surprising" that a lot of things they do a similar.

Actually, we no longer say GREAT 8, since Iota Theta Phi was granted membership in the National Pan-Hellenic Council, November 12, 1996. We are collectively referred to as the DIVINE 9. There is a book about the 9 Greek letter African American organizations, entitled The Divine Nine: The History of African American Faternities and Sororities by Lawrence C. Ross, Jr. Although he doesn't include a discussion of Masons and Eastern Stars, he gives great information about the Divine Nine. :tup:

Dawgpound97-01
February 21, 2005, 09:25 PM
Good looking out "silentrage" and "Seeing Spots"

when I said "crazy",yes I meant suprised. And me saying,"The Great 8",was just me excluding Iota Phi theta....most of the ol' school members from a "Great 8" fraternity or sorority dont have a CLUE of who Iota Phi Theta is.LOL...I was just taking to my cousin(an ol' school Omega from Michigan State),and I mentioned Iota to him,he was like,"huh?...Iota who??",and I told him that they just new on the yard;I told him that they are in the Pan-Hellanic council,and he was like " :shame: "

silentrage
February 21, 2005, 09:59 PM
Actually, we no longer say GREAT 8, since Iota Theta Phi was granted membership in the National Pan-Hellenic Council, November 12, 1996. We are collectively referred to as the DIVINE 9. There is a book about the 9 Greek letter African American organizations, entitled The Divine Nine: The History of African American Faternities and Sororities by Lawrence C. Ross, Jr. Although he doesn't include a discussion of Masons and Eastern Stars, he gives great information about the Divine Nine. :tup:

SS, have you read Ross' book? I have it in the boxes (that are packed at my mom's house in BR) but I have yet to read it. A soror of mine read and really enjoyed reading about the history of the fraterinies and sororities. I read Kimbrough's book after spying it on the bookshelf here at UGA. It was quite and easy read and very interesting.

silentrage
February 21, 2005, 10:02 PM
Good looking out "silentrage" and "Seeing Spots"

when I said "crazy",yes I meant suprised. And me saying,"The Great 8",was just me excluding Iota Phi theta....most of the ol' school members from a "Great 8" fraternity or sorority dont have a CLUE of who Iota Phi Theta is.LOL...I was just taking to my cousin(an ol' school Omega from Michigan State),and I mentioned Iota to him,he was like,"huh?...Iota who??",and I told him that they just new on the yard;I told him that they are in the Pan-Hellanic council,and he was like " :shame: "

Many people still don't recognize Iota Phi Theta as apart of the National Pan-Hellenic Council. However, they are and they may as well get used to it. Kimbrough does a good job of discussing the time when the NPHC went through the decision making process on admitting the Iota's to the organization and set-up criteria for future considerations.

ChicagoJag
August 27, 2005, 12:43 PM
Many people still don't recognize Iota Phi Theta as apart of the National Pan-Hellenic Council. However, they are and they may as well get used to it.

Indeed.

ABE
August 28, 2005, 09:34 AM
For further reading, check out Secret Societies. It should be in your public library (if not request a loan from a participating library). You will see how societies have been formed over the centuries and how they take similar form in their rituals, etc. It even has a section on the Ku Klux Klan. I was rolling when I looked at some of their "rituals" and "initiations".

Back on topic. It may be true that men and women who were masonically affiliated were the founders of fraternities and sororities, but one should not be so zealous in the pursuit of glorifying Masonry that he or she downplays or tries to make assumptions on the other groups. I believe both groups are great and they do tend to overlap populations at times.

La-La
March 1, 2006, 01:09 PM
I had no idea that Prince Hall masonry is considered the "Father of all" Greeks of:
Alpha Phi Alpha
Kappa Alpha Psi
Omega Psi Phi
Phi Beta Sigma

And that the Order of the Eastern Stars(PHA) is considered the "Mother of all" Greeks of:

Alpha Kappa Alpha
Delta Sigma Theta
Zeta Phi Beta
Sigma Gamma Rho

95% of the founders of the Great 8 are Prince Hall Masons or Eastern stars.
I had NO CLUE,until I got raised in to masonry a year ago.One of the Past Master's of my lodge was telling me about it,and I started to do research on it a little bit (I didnt research on stuff I shouldn't know). I know quite a few people that's A Phi A and Omega Psi Phi that are masons (alot of them in my lodge),and I know a couple AKA's that's OES.........everything started to make sense once I noticed that people ARE members of a Great 8 frat/soror and a Mason/Star,especially when I transfered from a community college in Michigan to TnSU this past fall.Alot of people say that Alpha and Omega are the CLOSEST two frats to masonry,and AKA is the closest to Eastern Star (dont take MY word on it...just something I heard numerous of times). It's amazing....and you start to "look" at things different if you're a mason or eastern star but not a member of one of the Great 8(like myself)....you can see the character within it all.I see things all the time that the great 4 frats do that came from masonry,and it's CRAZY!

Does anybody know of any books or websites that talk about the comparison of Masonry and the Great 8?
And how did you first "notice" the simmularities(sp.) about masonry/OES and the Great 8?
So since 95% of founders of the "Great 8" now known as the Divine Nine were either Masons or Eastern Stars, could you tell me about Phi Beta Sigma and Zeta Phi Beta and their founder being Masons Or Eastern Stars? I am really looking and doing a lot of work on them. If you could tell me that would be a lot of help.

Suge
March 1, 2006, 01:31 PM
Why is it that so many masons get so excited about this bit of information. I just get tired of some mason trying to compare the greeks to masons. There may be many similar things about the two groups, based on the history of many of the founders, but they are not the same and should not be compared as such. hell you could say the masons had influence on alot of things in the culture, why so much focus on the greeks?

As for influence, masons, military, and many other things have influenced the forming of BGLO's. But if you being the "father' makes you feel better, then so be it. I have ten founders, 11 charter members of my chapter, and that's where it ends for me.

La-La
March 1, 2006, 02:23 PM
Why is it that so many masons get so excited about this bit of information.

I have know Idea why. I love the fact that Masons and Greek are two different groups. I would like some information on why Maosns and Greeks are compared the way they are. I want facts. I read that 95% of black greek founders were either Masons or Eastern Stars, which organizations? I want facts on the subject.

Suge
March 1, 2006, 02:35 PM
Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order. There is a guy I work with that constantly wants to compare the two groups, and he is a perfect example of what i mentioned. He wanted to be a que.

buckwheat1911
March 1, 2006, 03:04 PM
Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order. There is a guy I work with that constantly wants to compare the two groups, and he is a perfect example of what i mentioned. He wanted to be a que.


Actually, I'm a part of Both!

Fortitude
March 1, 2006, 07:31 PM
Why is it that so many masons get so excited about this bit of information. I just get tired of some mason trying to compare the greeks to masons. There may be many similar things about the two groups, based on the history of many of the founders, but they are not the same and should not be compared as such. hell you could say the masons had influence on alot of things in the culture, why so much focus on the greeks?

As for influence, masons, military, and many other things have influenced the forming of BGLO's. But if you being the "father' makes you feel better, then so be it. I have ten founders, 11 charter members of my chapter, and that's where it ends for me. I feel ya.

SONNY
March 2, 2006, 11:04 AM
Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order. There is a guy I work with that constantly wants to compare the two groups, and he is a perfect example of what i mentioned. He wanted to be a que.


:smh:

Suge I feel you on that. Why compare. Do your thing, and Ima do mine.
When did Masons started doing party hops at the clubs?????

AAMU Alum
March 2, 2006, 11:51 AM
Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order.

That was always my understanding, too.


quote:When did Masons started doing party hops at the clubs?????


That's nothing! When I was on The Hill, there was one year that they wanted to step in the Homecoming Step show! :eek:

SONNY
March 2, 2006, 12:53 PM
That was always my understanding, too.


quote:When did Masons started doing party hops at the clubs?????


That's nothing! When I was on The Hill, there was one year that they wanted to step in the Homecoming Step show! :eek:

AAMU, dawg that Im saying!!!!

but HEY do your thing.

Dr. Sweet NUPE
March 2, 2006, 04:48 PM
I became a Prince Hall Mason in August of 1992, like my father, both grandfathers, and all four great grandfathers. I remember seeing my father leave the house with this black brief case once a month and never knew where he was going and never could find the case anywhere in the house. This was my foundation in LIFE. I joined KAPSI because I....well that will only be shared with my PHIs!!!!

buckwheat1911
March 2, 2006, 05:15 PM
I became a Prince Hall Mason in August of 1992, like my father, both grandfathers, and all four great grandfathers. I remember seeing my father leave the house with this black brief case once a month and never knew where he was going and never could find the case anywhere in the house. This was my foundation in LIFE. I joined KAPSI because I....well that will only be shared with my PHIs!!!!


I became a Prince Hall Mason back in July 93 in Mississippi! I've enjoyed both experiences. Prince Hall hoping, now that's another thing!:slap:

Dr H..
March 3, 2006, 01:56 PM
Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order. There is a guy I work with that constantly wants to compare the two groups, and he is a perfect example of what i mentioned. He wanted to be a que.

True, decades ago the Masons, Elks and OES were three of the organizations individuals could become a member of, without attending college.

While some college students may think the Masons are a fraternity and the OES is a Sorority, they are not. Contrary to popular belief, the Masons did not organize any College Fraternities, nor did the OES organize any Sororities.

There are similarities in the rituals of the Masons, College Frat's, Elks, KKK and so on. If you continue to research, you will find that the Masons and OES has it roots deeply imbedded in Ancient African Secret Societies, in fact the Masons goes back to the Building of King Solomon?s Temple. The Masons started as an organization for Brick or Stone Masons. Similiar to the modern day Labor Union

I was raised in 1971 -


http://www.angelfire.com/tx/orotemple/camelleft.gif

docmump
March 3, 2006, 04:57 PM
Shhh!!!

Miami Jag
March 15, 2006, 10:58 PM
Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order. There is a guy I work with that constantly wants to compare the two groups, and he is a perfect example of what i mentioned. He wanted to be a que.

I hear ya Suge.

I pledged Sigma in 90 and I became a Mason in 92. (PHA)

G-Man75
March 17, 2006, 10:52 PM
Why is it that so many masons get so excited about this bit of information. I just get tired of some mason trying to compare the greeks to masons. There may be many similar things about the two groups, based on the history of many of the founders, but they are not the same and should not be compared as such. hell you could say the masons had influence on alot of things in the culture, why so much focus on the greeks?

As for influence, masons, military, and many other things have influenced the forming of BGLO's. But if you being the "father' makes you feel better, then so be it. I have ten founders, 11 charter members of my chapter, and that's where it ends for me.Masonry is deeper than any sorority or fraternity will ever be. It is a secret society that is equal and respected no matter what color you are. White Masons will look out for black Masons and vice versa. In my opinion black fraternities and sororities are divided against each other, as well as, within their respective represented group. So, really there is no comparison and the focus really aint on greeks. Where is the so called learned 'humility".....?

SoloMan
March 18, 2006, 09:07 AM
Here's another fact for you. I bet you most if not all of the founders were members of their respective fraternity/sorority before they became a mason or eastern star. Now the question is why join both?

anthonythegreat
March 22, 2006, 04:32 AM
Wow! I've found this discussion and the posts very interesting! I am currently working on a project trying to pin-point which Black Greek fraternity founders were PH Masons as well. As a Prince Hall Mason myself (was raised in '05) I find the subject very interesting and would like to dig a little deeper (and the info isn't as readily available as I was hoping). If anyone knows of any sources for this type of specific information (or knows the info off-hand) any assistance you provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

SONNY
March 22, 2006, 11:26 AM
So most of the Pan Hell founders were Masons or OES?

So what?

Like Suge said, I HAVE 4 Founders, 3 charter members and 6 LB's . That's where it stops for me.

Do your thing, "OH Father of us all" members. Nothing but love.

Dr H..
March 27, 2006, 04:56 PM
I bet you most if not all of the founders were members of their respective fraternity/sorority before they became a mason or eastern star.

I disagree, a majority of the men, especially if they had been in the military or their father or grandfather were a member of the Lodge, became Mason while in the Military or in High School. Afterwards, they attended college and organized or pledged a fraternity.

While I was at TN State, I helped raise several APA, Q and Sigmas.

I cannot speak for the OES.

SONNY
March 28, 2006, 12:57 PM
While I was at TN State, I helped raise several APA, Q and Sigmas.



You helped bring in Black men who were already Omegas, Alphas, Sigmas into your Order.


Crazies thing though. I had a dream about Masonry. :confused:

Dr H..
March 28, 2006, 02:31 PM
You helped bring in Black men who were already Omegas, Alphas, Sigmas into your Order.


Crazies thing though. I had a dream about Masonry. :confused:

No, they were Masons first and pledged during their Junior and Senior year at TSU. The best part is we have are remained close friend. It's funny I was on the initiation committee for my Temple and two names was called, I looked and there they were. My first reaction was [What!] not them. Yes they had a ?hot? time crossing the desert. :lmao:

buckwheat1911
March 28, 2006, 03:48 PM
You helped bring in Black men who were already Omegas, Alphas, Sigmas into your Order.


Crazies thing though. I had a dream about Masonry. :confused:


Sonny, I do know some bruhs that became Masons after crossing the burning sands.

MightyDog
March 28, 2006, 04:27 PM
As a 33rd Degree Mason, it is always interesting to read what individuals think about the order.

Do we have anyone on the boad that is a member of the Commander of The Rite?

SONNY
March 28, 2006, 05:01 PM
Sonny, I do know some bruhs that became Masons after crossing the burning sands.


Team, Im going to call you after work. This dream was CRAZY YO!!
I dont even want to say half of it on this site.

It was bananas....

buckwheat1911
March 28, 2006, 05:23 PM
Team, Im going to call you after work. This dream was CRAZY YO!!
I dont even want to say half of it on this site.

It was bananas....

Cool!

JR
April 5, 2006, 11:34 PM
As a 33rd Degree Mason, it is always interesting to read what individuals think about the order.

Do we have anyone on the boad that is a member of the Commander of The Rite?



MD, it is interesting to read comments from non- Masons. While I don't get hyped as someone said about Masons being founding members of these Fraternities. I have to laugh when I hear folks say that Masonry has not influenced their rituals and other things within their said organizations. They all have a Masonic overtone but yet were not meant to be any relation to Masonry. I can remember being raised PHA in 92 with a couple of my KKPSI frats from Morehouse who also happened to both be Alphas. We were all like these rituals sure seem similiar to what we experienced pledging PSI and for them pledging PSI and Alpha. The correlation was the founders who happened to be Masons just used what they already knew and incorporated some of it in the rituals of the Fraternities they were creating. Nothing more and nothing less. Masonry is on a way different level than the fraternities and sororities ever will be. So it is no comparison.

Now for Masons wanting to step and all that other non sense. Well I will say this. Just like you have Alphas, Omegas, and Kappas that misrepresent your organizations. The same has happened in Masonry as well. Some do not represent like they are supposed to. That is one of the reasons I waited to be raised after college. The youngsters don't always get it. That is in all organizations. A certain maturity level has to develop. Just my 2 cents.

hansummm
April 11, 2006, 04:25 PM
True, decades ago the Masons, Elks and OES were three of the organizations individuals could become a member of, without attending college.

While some college students may think the Masons are a fraternity and the OES is a Sorority, they are not. Contrary to popular belief, the Masons did not organize any College Fraternities, nor did the OES organize any Sororities.

There are similarities in the rituals of the Masons, College Frat's, Elks, KKK and so on. If you continue to research, you will find that the Masons and OES has it roots deeply imbedded in Ancient African Secret Societies, in fact the Masons goes back to the Building of King Solomon?s Temple. The Masons started as an organization for Brick or Stone Masons. Similiar to the modern day Labor Union

I was raised in 1971 -







http://www.angelfire.com/tx/orotemple/camelleft.gif


Well Bruh Dr H I am afraid that you don't know what you are talking about. because every founder of A phi A was a memeber of Prince Hall. In fact they were founded in a lodge in Ithica, NY before requesting a charter at Cornell U.

That's just one example

hansummm
April 11, 2006, 04:26 PM
Well Bruh Dr H I am afraid that you don't know what you are talking about. because every founder of A phi A was a memeber of Prince Hall. In fact they were founded in a lodge in Ithica, NY before requesting a charter at Cornell U.

That's just one example

Vinita
April 11, 2006, 04:40 PM
You're an Alpha?

yazeed1906
April 28, 2006, 01:42 AM
from

http://www.skipmason.com/hm/hm21.htm



MASONIC AND OTHER FRATERNAL
TIES TO THE SEVEN JEWELS
By Skip Mason

Many brothers have questioned whether or not the founders were Masons or
members of some other fraternal lodges. My research has found documentation
that Jewels Robert Harold Ogle and George Biddle Kelley were. It is also speculated though not documented at this time that Chapman, Tandy and Callis
may have been also through circumstantial evidence. Let me deal with each one. Chapman, much older than the others by as much as ten years owned a brick yard and restaurant and was far more established in the city outside of Ithaca called Spencer. Keep in mind that it was Chapman who secured the Masonic Hall. Jewel Tandy's father was the Grand master of several lodges in Lexington, Kentucky so it is likely that he would have been a member. The lack of authentication regarding Callis's membership in a lodge still perplexes me. There is no mention of his affiliation in a Masonic Lodge in Wesley's book Henry Arthur Callis: Life and Legacy. Callis's father, the Reverend Henry Jesse Callis was a member of the Odds Fellows. After having gone through his papers at the Moorland Spingarn, there too was no indication that he was Masonic member, though many brothers are quick to say that he was. Ogle was a National Officer for the Benevolent Protective Order of the Elks. Jewel Kelley was very active in Masonic circles. He served as First master of the Mt. Moriah Lodge No 25 in Troy, District Deputy Grandmaster of the Grand Lodge of he State of New York and was a 33rd degree Mason of Utica Consitory of Scottish Rites. Brother also keep in mind that C.C. Poindexter witnessed the first initiation. He had not disbanded from the group at that point. It is possible that he may have been a Mason too. (I AM WORKING ON AN ARTICLE ON POINDEXTER FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE DYING TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS ON OMEGA.)

The four of them (Jewels Kelley, Callis, Chapman and Tandy) served on the first initiation committee. Kelley and Callis both worked in white fraternity houses at Cornell and was privy to the secret documents shared to them by the members of Sigma Alpha Epsilon and Beta Theta fraternities. Their research combined with Tandy and Chapman's participation helped to constitute the first ritual. Know that the ritual changed over the years. Later brothers such as Eugene Kinckle Jones and Roscoe C. Giles(Alpha's second president worked on the ritual). If you recall, Jones rewrote the ritual by memory.

*In my research I rely on primary and secondary source material for documentation. To affirm their Masonic affiliations, sources such as a biography, obituary or funeral program would have indicated those ties. As I have stated in the obituaries for Callis, Chapman, Jones, Murray or Tandy, there is no mention of their having been a member of a lodge or any fraternal rites being done at the funeral. If a brother has other documentation, please let me know!

rashad lewis
August 15, 2006, 04:04 PM
Sonny,

It sounds like you have some issues with the masons. I wonder where this comes from. You and I were cool in school and the topic of me being a mason was never a roadblock for us. Anyway bruh, it's good to see that you are doing good.

Rashad
Class of 2000

SONNY
August 15, 2006, 06:08 PM
Sonny,

It sounds like you have some issues with the masons. I wonder where this comes from. You and I were cool in school and the topic of me being a mason was never a roadblock for us. Anyway bruh, it's good to see that you are doing good.

Rashad
Class of 2000


WTH!?!?!!!?

Where this Ni99a come from. RASHAD get your behind off the NET!!!!! :lol:

Naw I aint got no problems with the ORDER. I just dont have any ties to it. My Founders may have been Masons, but that aint got nothing to do with my current membership in Omega.

Just all this "WE YO DADDIES....without us, it aint no YOU" rhetoric is getting old..............FAST!!!!!
Mason is Mason, Greek is Greek.
Just leave it at that, but if it makes yall feel better say what you wanna.

Jax
August 16, 2006, 12:46 PM
Mason is Mason, Greek is Greek.Just leave it at that...

As a member of both...I agree...leave it at that!

Dr. Sweet NUPE
August 17, 2006, 02:06 PM
In all honesty no one but Masons should know that you are a Mason. That's why I participated very little in this conversation. I feel it is so dumb to compare SOCIAL frats to the Masons and vice versa to the sororities. Their differences are SO phenomenal. Well, I can only speak for KAPSI and Prince Halls Masons.

To Be One Means to Ask One and quite frankly no one asked. Plus I wouldn't tell you over email anyway.

So carry on...

Jax
August 17, 2006, 02:23 PM
You're an Alpha?

I was about to ask the same thing.

Killer Bees
August 24, 2006, 04:08 PM
Here is your fact, SOME masons wanted to be in BGLO's so they treat the masons like it is a frat. They get jackets and other para that from my understanding is all out of order. There is a guy I work with that constantly wants to compare the two groups, and he is a perfect example of what i mentioned. He wanted to be a que.

I can't stand that shiiit and I am not even a member!!! In my humble opinion, I feel that Masons and Eastern Stars should be set by a different standard from your average college frat or soro. I think the fact that I see people treat them like Greek orgs was the main reason why I was never interested. If you want to be Greek, GO GREEK!

I also feel the same way about Professional Organizations and Band, but that is a whole nother topic.